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grahamperrin

macrumors 601
Jun 8, 2007
4,942
648
… The betas are just for finding bugs.

Not entirely, but that's astute.

I think the days of Apple being a good company are now over. I think Jobs had a real "feel" for what people wanted and that's now missing. What I think we have is one of the following situations, or a combination of both:

1. One or two egomaniacs (Ive, Cook) running the company with no regard for users.

2. Wall Street investors pushing change in the hopes it will lead to better sales.

I suspect it's item 1. …

I don't know Jobs, Ive or Cook personally but now I'm tempted to read a book about Jobs. I have one in mind.

It's worth considering these three words, each one in isolation:
  • superego
  • ego
  • mania
– from a dictionary definition of the latter, "… an excessive enthusiasm or desire; an obsession: he had a mania for automobiles".

I don't know Jobs. I assume that his superego had a generally healthy effect on Apple's human interface guidelines.

I do know plenty of Macs. If Steve Jobs had excessive enthusiasm for Macs, then I can not fault that excess.

I think it's clearly noticable that Steve had the last word in what gets released. He was a perfectionist in design things and he remains unreplaced. What we see now wouldn't have made it to the public. Just my impression.

I don't know who had the last word in the Jobs era, but I believe that Apple no longer has a single, clear, shared vision for OS X.

… There's always somebody complaining about something whenever a new update gets released, but it's usually stuff like "And now Word won't work" or "Now my external drive isn't recognized." Complaints are now directed at the very core of the user interface itself.

The party is over. …… it's clear that Yosemite is going ahead regardless of what users think of it. …

A different party begins. I can't imagine it lasting thirty years.

Some people may persuade Apple to begin murdering parts of the Yosemite party before those parts reach the age of one.

I don't care what anyone says …

I fear that a similar attitude may be taken by some of the people who are responsible for the human interface to Yosemite.

… it was a necessary change. It's not like Apple, the self-proclaimed innovator of innovation, could keep the same UI that it had been using for over 7 years.

Which other familiar features of the human interface would you like Apple to remove before Yosemite is released?

… the new UI isn't a complete replacement for Aqua …

Why, do you think, are the changes not complete?

How long might it take to completely replace Aqua?

If it will be necessary to murder parts of Yosemite before Aqua is replaced: which parts, do you think, should be shot? Be practical – think ahead - let Apple know, now, during the public beta, which parts of Yosemite will become worthless. Suggest some dates for the killings.

Apple have got the shotgun loaded …

Murder is not a selling point.

… It is free, you do not like it, just do not use it. …

Wait a while, then tell that to the people whose new Mac hardware will be limited to Yosemite (if they want an Apple operating system). Tell that to the people who might enjoy continuity-related features, but dislike Apple's human interface.

What is it with people not handling change... if you need the same crappy old experience …

The current experience – I do not accept that Mavericks is too old – is far from crap.

What is it with people failing to understand other people's reasons for disliking the interface of Yosemite?

… Apple should lead the way, not be a follower.

+1

… The "it just works" motto can be replaced by "It just works after you re-learn how to do everything." …

I would not say everything, but Yosemite does require me to cease some of the behaviours that have been very strongly reinforced by past operating systems from Apple.

If the intention of Yosemite was to just work for people like me, then Apple has failed in that respect.

… Just because an individual doesn't like it doesn't mean it's bad design or looks terrible. …

I'm less interested in the number of people complaining. More interested in the nature and passion of people's complaints. It may take weeks to get to the heart of a complaint.

… some of the negative feedback is a bit OTT. …

Customers are accustomed to Apple introducing changes that are almost entirely positive.

Wherever there's a sense that Yosemite over-does things – in a negative way, in a way that's not expected from Apple – I should expect over-the-top reactions from people.

Extremely negative reactions should be recognised as a sign that Yosemite will be far from the best operating system.

… it's all a fashion. How else can one explain the stark changes? … Maybe this UI feels fresh, but very quickly I got tired of it. The colours used, and the translucency, the overly flatness, it just made me sick very quickly to work with, and look at.

… I just saw Yosemite again a day or two ago and all I could do was shake my head …

See the OP? Band-wagon-anti-change-hipster-style-******** with ZERO critical thinking.

And you know what? It's just plain old straight up ****ing annoying.

Neither of those paragraphs exemplifies critical thinking.

This forum is a true calamity. …

I think not. It has helped me to understand some of the conflicting points of view.

… it's not like Apple has fundamentally broken any behaviours, it's still a largely visual-only change. …

My use of Mavericks is mostly visual – looking at the screen(s).

With Yosemite it was too often more difficult to understand, at a glance, what was on-screen.

… The problem is, since this is OS X, every app developer is going to attempt to emulate Apple's style as closely as possible …

I wouldn't say every app developer, but I do expect some third party software to become more difficult to use as a direct result of the lacklustre examples set by Apple.

What I would like to know is what was the logic behind this move? …

http://www.apple.com/osx/preview/ is probably the most prominent set of statements from Apple.

I do not see a guiding logic. The proof is in the pudding, and Yosemite appears to be a mixture of things. No single, clear, shared vision of the ingredients or the recipe. The overall taste is repellent to me.

… there are too many fairly serious complaints by too many people on too many web sites to be ignored …

I agree, but I fear that Apple will ignore some of the serious complaints.

In some areas, the company appears to follow a strange mixture of leads; appears to ignore what was good about its past operating systems for the Mac.

… Yosemite will be the fastest adopted release of OS X ever …

Maybe.

A rush is not necessarily a good thing.

… rumor sites would be full of stories about all these fired people. …

If Yosemite plays a part in anyone's departure, I reckon that it'll more likely be a quiet resignation.

Yosemite and HIG aside for a moment, John Siracusa wrote:


(Side note: as far as I can tell, Dominic Giampaolo is still with the company.)

… If I had to rate OS versions anything before Yosemite would probably rate 4 or 5 stars with me, with Yosemite getting a big fat "1".

I'd give Yosemite 2.

In the months and years ahead, it'll be interesting to compare the measurements given by GoSquared:
– and so on.

… The FACTS

The shouting is noted.

Apple's customer satisfaction rating has gone higher each year, outpacing everyone else in the industry. …

Without shouting: some things may suggest otherwise.

Apple Customer Satisfaction Study: Apple loses top ranking | BGR (2014-01-21)

> … a huge changing of the guard. The study gauges consumers’
> satisfaction level with consumer electronics brands by posing
> three questions: 1) How enjoyable were they to do business with?
> 2) How easy were they to do business with? 3) How effective were
> they at meeting your needs? …
>
> … satisfaction score fell behind rivals Samsung, Microsoft and
> Sony this year. …

Apple Falls to Four-Year Low in Online Customer Satisfaction Survey - John Paczkowski - News - AllThingsD (2012-12-27)

> … it’s not evident where, exactly, Apple suffered declines. …
>
> … Apple’s diminished customer satisfaction score seems more the
> result of consumer caprice than anything else. …
>
> … “The luster of Apple is fading a bit,” …

Apple store customer satisfaction begins to plummet as company ditches legendary focus on customer service | Mail Online (2013-08-03)

> … the Silicon Valley tech giant has asked its retail workers to
> focus on sales rather than customer service. …

(What's written by the Mail rarely has great value, but that quote is a fair response to what was shouted above.)
 

MagnusVonMagnum

macrumors 603
Jun 18, 2007
5,196
1,452
I didn't ignore anything. You are just jumping to conclusions.

Mostly, it takes you restating the post to change the meaning of what was written. Just like you did in your previous post.

Yeah, I think it's more like you can't manage to get the intended meaning out of what people write. You see this "spin" factor potential and you can't resist it.

(And I love how you managed to work a monopoly accusation into this topic. It brings me back to our first conversations. :D)

Yeah, I thought you'd enjoy that. ;)
 

BaldiMac

macrumors G3
Jan 24, 2008
9,010
11,202
Yeah, I think it's more like you can't manage to get the intended meaning out of what people write. You see this "spin" factor potential and you can't resist it.

Except I didn't spin anything. I simply refuted a factual claim and pointed out a flaw in logic. Like I said, you are jumping to conclusions.

You are the one spinning the post that I responded to to mean something that was not said or even implied.
 

TheBSDGuy

macrumors 6502
Jan 24, 2012
319
29
With the release of Yosemite and iOS 7 Apple has gone from the "special" computer company with "special" products and operating systems to "just another PC manufacturer" status, as far as I'm concerned.

I would love to know what the logic behind making radical modifications to well-loved operating systems and their UI's is, especially when their forced replacements seem to be at best experimental. Is it an out-of-control, egomaniacal "designer" who only has real experience in static object design? Is there such a contempt by the current design team for their predecessors personality and work that they feel compelled to beat every possible sign of his existence at the company off the face of the Earth? Are marketing weasels at Wall Street demanding radical and experimental changes to the company in hopes that, by a work of magic, user growth will actually become competitive Microsoft?

Unfortunately, it really doesn't matter. When I had iOS 6, I loved the iPhone. With iOS 7 I can barely stand to look at the thing and it often actually perturbs me to have to use it. Now I see MacOS going the exact same way.

What becomes clear, IMHO, is that the consumer no longer matters at Apple. They are going to do what they are going to do, and consumers can take it or leave it. If you don't like iOS 7, you can't go back. You can switch to another phone. If you don't like Yosemite, likely within a year or two you won't be able to use an earlier OS. Take it or leave it.

Apple used to be able to get away with this sort of arrogant behaviour when their products were exceptional, but they can't anymore. There's more than a fair amount of evidence suggesting iOS 7 hasn't been terribly well received. Judging by the view count and entries in this thread, I think it's pretty safe to say Yosemite isn't either. Common sense would tell most people that there's something wrong design-wise at Apple, but Apple fails to recognize or even attempt to address the problem.

...and that, ladies and gentlemen, is how you go from an exception company to "Just another PC Manufacturer."
 

grahamperrin

macrumors 601
Jun 8, 2007
4,942
648
… 2. Safari … actually has some useful information to show in a title. And — as I argued before — Safari has a title, which is exactly where the user expects it. Safari's window title doubles as the address bar. …

For the reasons given earlier, and below, none of those statements are true for me with Yosemite.

I continue to think about why it's so deeply annoying that Safari 8 never properly presents the true page title to me.

Something not previously mentioned: I have more than seventeen thousand bookmarks, around three thousand of which are marked as unread. Almost without exception, the true <title> of a page is essential to me recognising (first impression), bookmarking, seeking, browsing search results, then again recognising the title alone of page. And then I often read only part of that page whilst continuing to treat the page in its entirety as unread. And so on.

Amongst the items that I downloaded or bookmarked around a week ago – and most of those remain unread – there's a 2003 Masters thesis, Issues of Saliency and Recognition in the Search for Web Page Bookmarks. Without me drawing any conclusion, from that thesis:

… There are a few basic things a web author should do in order to write an acceptable bookmark, based on the complaints of web users (Kassten, Greenberg, & Edwards, 2002; Cockburn, Greenberg, Jones, McKenzie & Moyle, 2003).

First, they must remember to actually define the <title> tag. If the <title> tag is empty or even missing from the HTML code, the filename and directory path of the page will be shown instead of a meaningful title …

… The author must ensure that the <title> tag and the “title” within the page actually match. Differences between the two have been cited by users as a major annoyance when trying to locate a bookmark (Kassten, et al., 2002). Also, authors should ensure that each page on their website has a unique title to aid multiple bookmarking of pages from the same site. …

…
Kassten, S., Greenberg, S., & Edwards, C. (2002). How people recognise previously seen web pages from titles, URLs and thumbnails, in Proceedings of HCI 2002, 247-265. Springer.
…​

How do people find and recognise browser bookmarks? | Alex Poole (2008)

People and Computers XVI - Memorable Yet Invisible – Proceedings of HCI 2002 – only some of the pages are previewed in Google Books.

----------

Simple: Mavericks will go down with Yosemites release, Yosemite numbers will go up until the moment its successor is available.

By interesting – over periods of months and years – I meant something more interesting than a simple up and down at two points in time.
 

AxoNeuron

macrumors 65816
Apr 22, 2012
1,251
855
The Left Coast
Lots of people saying how horrifying Yosemite is...but I've been using it since DP1 and it's been absolutely fantastic, I love every tiny thing about it. You guys think it's somehow going to kill the Mac, but the truth is, Apple is gonna sell more Macs with Yosemite than any other computer on the market :rolleyes:

----------

With the release of Yosemite and iOS 7 Apple has gone from the "special" computer company with "special" products and operating systems to "just another PC manufacturer" status, as far as I'm concerned.

I would love to know what the logic behind making radical modifications to well-loved operating systems and their UI's is, especially when their forced replacements seem to be at best experimental. Is it an out-of-control, egomaniacal "designer" who only has real experience in static object design? Is there such a contempt by the current design team for their predecessors personality and work that they feel compelled to beat every possible sign of his existence at the company off the face of the Earth? Are marketing weasels at Wall Street demanding radical and experimental changes to the company in hopes that, by a work of magic, user growth will actually become competitive Microsoft?

Unfortunately, it really doesn't matter. When I had iOS 6, I loved the iPhone. With iOS 7 I can barely stand to look at the thing and it often actually perturbs me to have to use it. Now I see MacOS going the exact same way.

What becomes clear, IMHO, is that the consumer no longer matters at Apple. They are going to do what they are going to do, and consumers can take it or leave it. If you don't like iOS 7, you can't go back. You can switch to another phone. If you don't like Yosemite, likely within a year or two you won't be able to use an earlier OS. Take it or leave it.

Apple used to be able to get away with this sort of arrogant behaviour when their products were exceptional, but they can't anymore. There's more than a fair amount of evidence suggesting iOS 7 hasn't been terribly well received. Judging by the view count and entries in this thread, I think it's pretty safe to say Yosemite isn't either. Common sense would tell most people that there's something wrong design-wise at Apple, but Apple fails to recognize or even attempt to address the problem.

...and that, ladies and gentlemen, is how you go from an exception company to "Just another PC Manufacturer."
People really need to learn how to separate their opinions on how a UI looks from objective facts. I personally think that iOS 6 looked terrible and that iOS 7 was a very welcomed change. But that's just my opinion.
 

tkermit

macrumors 68040
Feb 20, 2004
3,586
2,921
Lots of people saying how horrifying Yosemite is...

I don't know about that...

--

And whatever people are saying, they are commenting on a Beta version of Yosemite that is still being tweaked, especially in terms of its visual appearance.

Personally, I was pretty shocked by iOS 7 when it was first presented to the public, but with the tweaks made to it during the Beta phase and after going through a bit of an adjustment phase, I certainly prefer it to earlier versions despite lingering complaints ...

by all means give well-reasoned feedback to Apple and let yourself be heard, but personally I see it as wasted energy and possibly even as counterproductive to loudly complain in the forums about something that isn't even set in stone.
 

leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,526
19,694
I would love to know what the logic behind making radical modifications to well-loved operating systems and their UI's is, especially when their forced replacements seem to be at best experimental

Apple is all about radical modifications. They bring innovation and new ideas where everyone else does not dares to, because that could be risky. This is the reason why most of the other tech companies just reacts to what Apple does and tries to copy it.

OS X has had its particular look for over a decade. Yosemite and iOS7 represent the next-gen Apple UI for the next decade, something that has been developed after a lot of gradual experimentation over the last 4-5 years.

What becomes clear, IMHO, is that the consumer no longer matters at Apple. They are going to do what they are going to do, and consumers can take it or leave it.

I am sorry, but what is new in your statement? Apple always had the 'we know it better' stance and that is in part the reason why they are so successful.

If you don't like Yosemite, likely within a year or two you won't be able to use an earlier OS. Take it or leave it.

How is it different with any other OS X to date?

Apple used to be able to get away with this sort of arrogant behaviour when their products were exceptional, but they can't anymore. There's more than a fair amount of evidence suggesting iOS 7 hasn't been terribly well received. Judging by the view count and entries in this thread, I think it's pretty safe to say Yosemite isn't either.

One baseless conjecture after another one. It is true that iOS7 was quite controversial. Still, most surveys I am familiar with put it very close to iOS6 in user satisfaction ratings. Regarding the other part of your post: maybe you should actually bother to read the thread instead of looking at its size?

Here is an approximate breakdown of the first page: 5 distinct users who are mostly negative about Yosemite, 12 distinct users who are very positive, and some more who are neutral (I didn't really count these). All posts criticising Yosemite on page 1 together gather 53 upvotes. Just the first five post that are praising Yosemite have 208 upvotes in total. So yes, 'Yosemite is not well received' :rolleyes:
 

grahamperrin

macrumors 601
Jun 8, 2007
4,942
648
… I see it as wasted energy and possibly even as counterproductive to loudly complain in the forums about something that isn't even set in stone.

I do encourage other people to use Feedback Assistant, but for me it no longer makes sense.

Feedback to Apple should come from people who desire the operating system. That desire:
  • was within me when I began testing Yosemite
  • was slowly but surely killed by the user experience of Yosemite.
I find some very intelligent and open-minded people in this topic, but (with respect) almost no-one here appears to understand why Yosemite is unacceptable to me. Five weeks since I began posting to this topic, there's no indication that wearers of rose-tinted spectacles will be prepared to remove those spectacles.

In another recent topic I draw attention to the various ways in which Apple is proactive about customer feedback.

For my most serious complaints, my gut tells me that Apple will not remove the rose-tinted spectacles. Sorry.
 
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BaldiMac

macrumors G3
Jan 24, 2008
9,010
11,202
I do encourage other people to use Feedback Assistant, but for me it no longer makes sense.

Feedback to Apple should come from people who desire the operating system. That desire:
  • was within me when I began testing Yosemite
  • was killed by the user experience.

Only around 5% of computer users prefer the value of Macs. You are not alone. If only there is one Windows user who is swayed by Yosemite to offset the loss of you, Apple should come out alright. :p
 

tkermit

macrumors 68040
Feb 20, 2004
3,586
2,921
I do encourage other people to use Feedback Assistant, but for me it no longer makes sense.

You're obviously free to do whatever you wish. Admittedly (not wanting to offend you) I do wonder a bit about your motivation for such extensive postings on Yosemite's issues (as you see them) on this very forum then if you're apparently not interested anymore in actually effecting any change? You have even literally already said farewell to OS X...
 
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grahamperrin

macrumors 601
Jun 8, 2007
4,942
648
… I do wonder a bit about your motivation for such extensive postings …

I recall posting something with three points a, b and c. One of those points related to my decision to cease feedback to Apple.

If you can find that post – at the moment, I can not – then you'll probably find part of the motivation.

(Motivations were also expressed in other posts, but the a-b-c post was the first that came to mind.)


I recalled https://forums.macrumors.com/posts/19497900/ for its clear presentation of three milestones in my experience of Apple operating systems, but that post did not explain the motivations for me posting to MacRumors Forums …
 
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joedec

macrumors 6502
Jul 25, 2014
443
51
Cupertino
Here is an approximate breakdown of the first page: 5 distinct users who are mostly negative about Yosemite, 12 distinct users who are very positive, and some more who are neutral (I didn't really count these). All posts criticising Yosemite on page 1 together gather 53 upvotes. Just the first five post that are praising Yosemite have 208 upvotes in total. So yes, 'Yosemite is not well received' :rolleyes:

I didn't do as thorough of analysis as you but if you read the topic "Yosemite is Beautiful" its loaded with complaints too!

I think its amusing how people over there state things like "I Love Yosemite" followed by "I haven't seen this degree of pixelation since Windows XP"

Most of us liked Steve Jobs taste, were there was a genuine concern for great typography. Taste aside, we have a preponderance of complaints regarding fonts, contrast, fading, generally poor quality.

Maybe it was a mistake for Apple to expose the OS so soon.
 
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w0lf

macrumors 65816
Feb 16, 2013
1,268
109
USA
Tell me how to theme it. I'm new to OS X. And anyhow, it's not like I'm whining. I just don't like the new look, and I wanted to know who else doesn't. The attitude most people have is ridiculous. It's not wrong to express their opinion. That doesn't constitute as whining. Anyhow, I would be very obliged if you gave me information on theming OS X. I don't want to pay to theme it either.

Depends on what you want to theme but Google is your friend.

But even Apple has a support page on how to use custom icons: http://support.apple.com/kb/TA20788?viewlocale=en_US
 

leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,526
19,694
Most of us liked Steve Jobs taste, were there was a genuine concern for great typography. Taste aside, we have a preponderance of complaints regarding fonts, contrast, fading, generally poor quality.

I was under impression that the problem only affected non-retina machines and was related to buggy pixel smoothing? I have read some reports here and there that DP6 has improved the experience on a non-retina display.
 

joedec

macrumors 6502
Jul 25, 2014
443
51
Cupertino
I was under impression that the problem only affected non-retina machines and was related to buggy pixel smoothing? I have read some reports here and there that DP6 has improved the experience on a non-retina display.

Yes they fixed the fonts, but they still have shading and contrast issues. Apple has to make every combination work, dark mode seems to fix some things. However dark mode is an optional setting, not a work around for better visibility.
 
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grahamperrin

macrumors 601
Jun 8, 2007
4,942
648

macbookpro13

macrumors member
Feb 6, 2010
96
7
With the release of Yosemite and iOS 7 Apple has gone from the "special" computer company with "special" products and operating systems to "just another PC manufacturer" status, as far as I'm concerned.

I would love to know what the logic behind making radical modifications to well-loved operating systems and their UI's is, especially when their forced replacements seem to be at best experimental. Is it an out-of-control, egomaniacal "designer" who only has real experience in static object design? Is there such a contempt by the current design team for their predecessors personality and work that they feel compelled to beat every possible sign of his existence at the company off the face of the Earth? Are marketing weasels at Wall Street demanding radical and experimental changes to the company in hopes that, by a work of magic, user growth will actually become competitive Microsoft?

Unfortunately, it really doesn't matter. When I had iOS 6, I loved the iPhone. With iOS 7 I can barely stand to look at the thing and it often actually perturbs me to have to use it. Now I see MacOS going the exact same way.

What becomes clear, IMHO, is that the consumer no longer matters at Apple. They are going to do what they are going to do, and consumers can take it or leave it. If you don't like iOS 7, you can't go back. You can switch to another phone. If you don't like Yosemite, likely within a year or two you won't be able to use an earlier OS. Take it or leave it.

Apple used to be able to get away with this sort of arrogant behaviour when their products were exceptional, but they can't anymore. There's more than a fair amount of evidence suggesting iOS 7 hasn't been terribly well received. Judging by the view count and entries in this thread, I think it's pretty safe to say Yosemite isn't either. Common sense would tell most people that there's something wrong design-wise at Apple, but Apple fails to recognize or even attempt to address the problem.

...and that, ladies and gentlemen, is how you go from an exception company to "Just another PC Manufacturer."

Yosemite works EXACTLY like Mavericks, only with a new coat of paint. Get a grip.
 

smokesletsgo

macrumors regular
Oct 23, 2013
166
140
Yosemite does not work exactly like Mavericks.

Shouting is an immediate turn-off.

Read the topic.

And it shouldn't. You're so limited you ain't even know it. Try to think different, rethink how you can take advantage of something new, you're crying about stuff that nobody cares and is just purely dependent on your mindset. Who cares about title bars? Didn't even notice they're gone. You're fixed on some irrelevant stuff and too stubborn to think different. Adapt or get left behind. Remember, it's not your OS, it's Apple's, and they shouldn't listen to anyone but themselves. Because if people like you would be heard, we'd stagnate for ages, there would be no hope for progress or for any sort of change.

If you think your negative ideas about Yosemite aren't irrelevant and fearfull of change, then make your own stuff, your own vision of OS, instead of creating topics of predicting doomsday for Apple. We'll see how far it goes.
 
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