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Yosemite looks terrible!
- Thread starter OldGuyTom
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That scenario is unrealistic. For OS X (Mavericks):
Yes, I'm aware they've changed the scroll bars since Lion, Lion, Mavericks, etc. They show a progression away from the element styles with Aqua. The UI was still inconsistent in previous iterations and I'm glad they've developed a newer UI. Translucent menu bar or solid white menu bar with dark grey windows looked absolutely horrid. Graphical elements that took up way too much space than was needed. Maximize button that no one used now linked to the maximize button Windows users are familiar with.
The shelf dock also looked terrible compared to the dock in Yosemite, hell even the dock in Tiger.
That's not to say Yosemite doesn't have its faults, it does.
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Not to mention I would think with an app such as something monitoring heart rate the developer would be smart enough to include power assertions and other features to ensure that didn't happen.
We have a funny guy over here, I guess you're the one that got confused, I wasn't replying to you.
Why don't you just accept Apple changes or move on, I bet there are pretty Windows forums out there that could use your thoughts.
You do realise that an app can explicitly opt-out from App Nap using appropriate API? Not to mention that you can disable App Nap on per-application basis? Really people, do you even bother to read documentation before you post nonsense like this? App Nap is an amazing feature because it allows the system to allocate less resources to programs which do not perform any useful work, while not penalising applications which actually do perform useful work.
nikicampos, if you intend to address one person alone in a public forum, please make clear that your post (or part of your post) is for no-one else.
Bear in mind, the quote to which you carelessly replied had this within its first sentence:
"everyone crying about the removal of the title bar"
nikicampos, I had not yet realised that you are one of the people crying about removal of the title bar. If you're not crying, then you might apologise to bennibeef for your response to something that was addressed to a group of which you are not a member.
People may treat that as funny
but I'd prefer to discuss the looks of Yosemite. If that was intended for me, to amuse people, then go ahead and laugh. Laughing at something off-topic and unrealistic is certainly easier than taking time to read something on-topic and realistic
User experience: some links
I bookmarked that statement a few weeks ago. Worth revisiting, but no rush.
Then, 2014-07-09, a response:
A few hours ago I took some time out to find, in User Experience Stack Exchange, a few items of possible interest. Not limited to skeuomorphs
How should a website's title be structured? (2012-04-06)
What kind of design do users like the most at the time of this question, 'Flat' or 'Skeuomorphic'? (2013-01-19)
What explains the current shift from glossy UIs to matte UIs? (2013-02-28)
Is Desktop Window Title Necessary? (2013-03-04)
Minimalism, Maximalism(?) or whatever? (2013-04-09)
Skeuomorphism or OS-consistency? (2013-04-18)
Is skeumorphism dead? (2014-04-23)
Elsewhere:
A Look at Flat Design and Why It's Significant | UX Magazine (2013-05)
I bookmarked that statement a few weeks ago. Worth revisiting, but no rush.
Then, 2014-07-09, a response:
A few hours ago I took some time out to find, in User Experience Stack Exchange, a few items of possible interest. Not limited to skeuomorphs
How should a website's title be structured? (2012-04-06)
What kind of design do users like the most at the time of this question, 'Flat' or 'Skeuomorphic'? (2013-01-19)
What explains the current shift from glossy UIs to matte UIs? (2013-02-28)
Is Desktop Window Title Necessary? (2013-03-04)
Minimalism, Maximalism(?) or whatever? (2013-04-09)
Skeuomorphism or OS-consistency? (2013-04-18)
Is skeumorphism dead? (2014-04-23)
Elsewhere:
A Look at Flat Design and Why It's Significant | UX Magazine (2013-05)
Well you certainly do your homework. I read a few of those posts, and I appreciate that some intelligent discussion is happening, but what I did't see is people discussing effort. What I mean by that is the new flat icons take little or no effort to create. For example I am not a graphics artist but I am quite sure I could reproduce the 10.10 Mission Control icon in under an hour, easily. The 10.9 version would be tough.
If you study art you'll learn that a societies art represents what they valued at that time. Icons, fonts, the UI are computer art in my mind, I think Jobs was a last hold out for really good art.
On a broader scale, simplification, its so pervasive these days. For example, when I visited Crissy Field in San Francisco, seeing the Mark di Suvero exhibit, it looked like someone dumped there construction waste (I was terrified it would be permanent). People tell me beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but doesn't the effort and skill involved mean anything? If you're impressed by big girders, go look at the Golden Gate Bridge to satisfy that desire, that's beauty and function!
Apple proved that people will pay for quality, and ascetically pleasing machines, they were the underdog for a long time but they didn't give up that vision. I think people recognize quality and beauty and the "effort" it takes to build it.
Apple was "Liberal Arts plus Technology", is Apple joining the rest of society, or the industry in general were colored squares are good enough?
Yes, yes. Couldn't agree more.
I am also missing kind of an effort regarding OS X's new design.
I know there is a lot of work behind its development. But, Forstall left Apple in 2012. And still, everything seems to be half backed.
I know, Apple has a lot to do. I think they are still working on the iTV and the iWatch thing and also Carplay. Actually, the new Retina Macbook design is a evolution (which is ok, and all we need), the redesign of the Mac Pro is great and was much needed but besides that, what is the design department doing?
I know they are working - really hard - but certainly not on the Macintosh OS.
There was no radical re-design of any of the products for years except for the Mac Pro. Macbook Air and Pro didn't change that much. The iPhone, c'mon I think Steve saw at least a prototype of the 2014 iPhone.
Mac Mini, same as always. Mac Pro, I think they had enough time to redesign this thing between 2005 and 2013.
So there was plenty of time for OS X.
My text sounds harsher than I wanted. In general, I like OS X, and as I have mentioned in another posting, I am confident that OS X will be refined in the end, as always.
But when I see Craig Federighi on stage (and I really love him) talking about the trash can... and how much time they have spent on that...
Reply to 3d vs 2d interface
Greetings!
I agree that 3d on a 2d plane is an illusion, but most things pertaining to media technology are. Why have them? For example: Gaming, Social Networking, Advertising, and more. It is like listening to a great concert with ear plugs. What is the point? To create that illusion allows us to set ourselves into the dimension of the reality we create. We sit in front of our monitors most of the day / night and hopefully do productive work so, why not have the option to indulge ourselves
in the excitement of the illusion. It is a question of options... that is the difference. That is what initially attracted me to Apple - Options. Once that is lost what do you have .... Windoze.. Microsoft. Form with out substance. Do we follow like sheep!.... Microsoft dictates what is an acceptable UI. Does this mean Apple should follow. Look at all the prior OS's. The strive to be innovative with design and to humanize its interface was in the forefront. What happen?
Regards.....
Greetings!
I agree that 3d on a 2d plane is an illusion, but most things pertaining to media technology are. Why have them? For example: Gaming, Social Networking, Advertising, and more. It is like listening to a great concert with ear plugs. What is the point? To create that illusion allows us to set ourselves into the dimension of the reality we create. We sit in front of our monitors most of the day / night and hopefully do productive work so, why not have the option to indulge ourselves
in the excitement of the illusion. It is a question of options... that is the difference. That is what initially attracted me to Apple - Options. Once that is lost what do you have .... Windoze.. Microsoft. Form with out substance. Do we follow like sheep!.... Microsoft dictates what is an acceptable UI. Does this mean Apple should follow. Look at all the prior OS's. The strive to be innovative with design and to humanize its interface was in the forefront. What happen?
Regards.....
Yosemite fonts without a Retina display
Yosemite
A short while ago I booted the currently seeded build to test the Show All Tabs view of Safari 8,
Shift-Command-\
With and without that view, I can't say that font issues are fixed. The menu bar was not too bad, but words elsewhere in the user interface of Safari were consistently difficult to read. I frequently leaned towards the Mac to see whether the UI was more legible. Close up, things were no better.
With the first level of zoom enabled, for accessibility, the words remained difficult to read. Lack of clarity, as if my spectacles were unusually dirty.
Option-Command-=
increasing the zoom did increase legibility, but I don't intend to work in that way. I prefer to see the menu bar, Dock and so on.
YMMV
Mavericks
Better.
Words in the user interface of Safari 7.x appear legible without using the Accessibility pane of System Preferences.
Environment
MacBookPro5,2
Yosemite
A short while ago I booted the currently seeded build to test the Show All Tabs view of Safari 8,
Shift-Command-\
With and without that view, I can't say that font issues are fixed. The menu bar was not too bad, but words elsewhere in the user interface of Safari were consistently difficult to read. I frequently leaned towards the Mac to see whether the UI was more legible. Close up, things were no better.
With the first level of zoom enabled, for accessibility, the words remained difficult to read. Lack of clarity, as if my spectacles were unusually dirty.
Option-Command-=
increasing the zoom did increase legibility, but I don't intend to work in that way. I prefer to see the menu bar, Dock and so on.
YMMV
Mavericks
Better.
Words in the user interface of Safari 7.x appear legible without using the Accessibility pane of System Preferences.
Environment
MacBookPro5,2
I have Yosemite on a Matte HD Display, MacBook Pro. Looks generally better that Beta 1. The fonts are definitely darker. Maybe "fixed" is too strong a word, how about "improved".
As a side note, I went though Apple's current offerings and less than half of their Macs and none of the displays are Retina. They have to make this work.
Which is a problem....if that turns out be true for the final release. Until then, there's a reason for Apple's NDA..
Thanks, I forgot to mention that mine is 17" glossy. Specifically:
Code:
NVIDIA GeForce 9600M GT:
Chipset Model: NVIDIA GeForce 9600M GT
Type: GPU
Bus: PCIe
PCIe Lane Width: x16
VRAM (Total): 512 MB
Vendor: NVIDIA (0x10de)
Device ID: 0x0647
Revision ID: 0x00a1
ROM Revision: 3436
gMux Version: 1.7.10
Displays:
Color LCD:
Display Type: LCD
Resolution: 1920 x 1200
Pixel Depth: 32-Bit Color (ARGB8888)
Main Display: Yes
Mirror: Off
Online: Yes
Built-In: Yes
VA1916wSERIES:
Resolution: 1440 x 900 @ 60 Hz
Pixel Depth: 32-Bit Color (ARGB8888)
Display Serial Number: QN1090721378
Mirror: Off
Online: Yes
Rotation: Supported
Adapter Type: Apple Mini DisplayPort To VGA Adapter
Adapter Firmware Version: 1.03Certainly improved, but I wasn't sure whether fonts are heavier than in earlier seeds, darker, or both. Plus, my use of the Accessibility pane (but not zoom); I can't estimate how much of the improvement is a result of avoiding Apple's defaults.
The image below (from a post made a week ago) does not show Safari 8 but may help to show how UI fonts appear to me.
Public discussion of use of fonts in pre-release Yosemite
I do hope that Apple can make Yosemite at least as legible as Mavericks.
Thanks, I understand your concern. Please see https://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=19542685&posted=1#post19542685
Widespread public discussion of Apple's choice of system font for Yosemite began almost immediately after WWDC 2014. Considering those Google search results, it should be no surprise that people are complaining about Apple's use of system font(s) in apps such as Safari. Other recent public complaints about Apple's choice(s) include:
I assume that public complaints may be offset by public praise.
I do hope that Apple can make Yosemite at least as legible as Mavericks.
Thanks, I understand your concern. Please see https://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=19542685&posted=1#post19542685
Widespread public discussion of Apple's choice of system font for Yosemite began almost immediately after WWDC 2014. Considering those Google search results, it should be no surprise that people are complaining about Apple's use of system font(s) in apps such as Safari. Other recent public complaints about Apple's choice(s) include:
I assume that public complaints may be offset by public praise.
Sure. I would only (humbly) suggest differentiating between criticising Apple's choice of system font in general (fwiw, as far as I'm concerned, choosing Helvetica Neue is a mistake, but whatever... maybe I'll get used to it
) and criticising specific instances of legibility which may not be representative of the final product at all.Couldn't agree more.
That's another up-vote from me, and
I apologise. My screenshots at https://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=19490365#post19490365 represented, amongst other things, a bug of the type that Apple is IMHO very likely to fix, quietly and efficiently, before release. I didn't realise that aspect before posting if I had realised, I would never have posted those particular shots.
Definitely my bad there, and I apologise, but I chose to leave those shots because:
If ifs and ands were pots and pans, there'd be no need for tinkers' hands
I apologise. My screenshots at https://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=19490365#post19490365 represented, amongst other things, a bug of the type that Apple is IMHO very likely to fix, quietly and efficiently, before release. I didn't realise that aspect before posting if I had realised, I would never have posted those particular shots.
Definitely my bad there, and I apologise, but I chose to leave those shots because:
- the discussion that followed helped to demonstrate the minute differences between people's viewing patterns
- realising such differences may help doubters to understand why what's unimportant to one group of people may be very important to a different group.
If ifs and ands were pots and pans, there'd be no need for tinkers' hands
User experience (UX): more
Recommended reading
With apologies to readers who may be uninterested: some recommendations from me.
Highly recommended and it should be easy to approach these without bias:
The Origins of Pattern Theory, the Future of the Theory, And The Generation of a Living World IEEE (Keynote by Christopher Alexander at The 1996 ACM Conference on Object-Oriented Programs, Systems, Languages and Applications (OOPSLA))
The most popular answer to UX style guide techniques
(CRUD there is create, read, update and delete.)
Of interest:
Orbitz Cant Get A Date » UIE Brain Sparks (2006-02-20)
> 1) Location, 2) Location, and 3) Location.
> People remember where things are, not what they look like.
Responses to selected quotes from this topic
Simply finding those things was very little work, thanks to Stack Exchange participation in SE networks is a very positive and productive experience. Whilst I don't intend to properly read all of those things, the items above seemed commendable.
With some bias from me
Location, location
location.
If I can resume feedback to Apple, my first follow-up will be:
Recommended reading
With apologies to readers who may be uninterested: some recommendations from me.
Highly recommended and it should be easy to approach these without bias:
The Origins of Pattern Theory, the Future of the Theory, And The Generation of a Living World IEEE (Keynote by Christopher Alexander at The 1996 ACM Conference on Object-Oriented Programs, Systems, Languages and Applications (OOPSLA))
The most popular answer to UX style guide techniques
(CRUD there is create, read, update and delete.)
Of interest:
Orbitz Cant Get A Date » UIE Brain Sparks (2006-02-20)
> 1) Location, 2) Location, and 3) Location.
> People remember where things are, not what they look like.
Responses to selected quotes from this topic
Simply finding those things was very little work, thanks to Stack Exchange participation in SE networks is a very positive and productive experience. Whilst I don't intend to properly read all of those things, the items above seemed commendable.
With some bias from me
Location, location
location.
If I can resume feedback to Apple, my first follow-up will be:
- on the early June 2014 problem report about removal of the title bar from Safari
- primarily with reference to developers' reasons for fixing the Web browser to show the title.
14A329
better with Lucida Grande but still, a headache occurred
Again tonight I suffered from a headache (extremely rare for me) after a period of testing Yosemite.
Lucida Grande increased legibility, so I should probably attribute the headache to one or both of the following:
Again tonight I suffered from a headache (extremely rare for me) after a period of testing Yosemite.
Lucida Grande increased legibility, so I should probably attribute the headache to one or both of the following:
- the Yosemite test period might have been longer than usual
- working with most of Apple's defaults but without f.lux in one of the two accounts that I tested
Give the User Options
Hello.
Why not give the user options in system preferences to alter the user interface.
When you are looking at the interface all day long you need to have the "option" to control how the UI looks, just like the background wallpaper.
Bring back the features from the past that people enjoyed. 3 way video conferencing - iChat, more sound feedback options, cursor shape control, the ability to dim or brighten the screen.
Having control over shadows so you can have more depth to objects and windows.
The key here is "UO" user options. Windows, Linux, BSD / NextStep, Amiga, all had or have UI options.
Have the option on placing Spotlight anywhere on the screen so you can have it out of the way if you want.
What about Vocal Prompts?
Just because something was from the past does not mean we have to give up the things that were good. We have established this idea of going for the new and dumping the old. Bad mistake. We have taken quality, innovation, and pride and dumped it for the mundane. Give people an option so we can move forward.
Hello.
Why not give the user options in system preferences to alter the user interface.
When you are looking at the interface all day long you need to have the "option" to control how the UI looks, just like the background wallpaper.
Bring back the features from the past that people enjoyed. 3 way video conferencing - iChat, more sound feedback options, cursor shape control, the ability to dim or brighten the screen.
Having control over shadows so you can have more depth to objects and windows.
The key here is "UO" user options. Windows, Linux, BSD / NextStep, Amiga, all had or have UI options.
Have the option on placing Spotlight anywhere on the screen so you can have it out of the way if you want.
What about Vocal Prompts?
Just because something was from the past does not mean we have to give up the things that were good. We have established this idea of going for the new and dumping the old. Bad mistake. We have taken quality, innovation, and pride and dumped it for the mundane. Give people an option so we can move forward.
Apple was never fond of giving too many options to the user. At this point giving options would be admitting to errors of judgment regarding the UI. Arrogance is also a common fault of the stupid. Yes I'm ponting at sir Ive here. So shoot me but don't expect any change. The guy seems to know next to nothing about UI.
From the other account, I already know that f.lux works. Related:
Use in the dark: is there awareness of f.lux software?
The intention with that account was to stay as close as possible to Apple's defaults.
I like mavericks spotlight, its perfect because it takes up little space. At least compared to the gigantic yosemite mess.
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