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leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,516
19,664
I told you, iOS developers aren't even interested in supporting macOS from Mac App Store and it's a fact. I don't care about the same API, it just doesn't work on different OS right away and therefore, it's useless. Who even wanna spend their time and money on their mobile apps to macOS? It's been more than 1 year since Apple Silicon transition announced with the transition kit and yet the amount of mobile apps on Mac store is so pathetically poor. They don't even allow side loading. Are there even useful iPad apps on Mac App Store that we can use?

And all of this is relevant why? It's not surprising that iOS devs in general don't want their apps to run on macOS — user experience will be terrible and their apps will get bad reviews. What does it have to do with GPU programming or the fact that you can share code across all Apple platforms.

It is certainly possible to publish agh-quality apps across all Appel platforms that use the same source code under the hood (again, Pixelmator is a good example). But it's not "free" either, you have to put some work into it. It's just much easier than with ay other ecosystem.
 

sunny5

macrumors 68000
Jun 11, 2021
1,835
1,706
Because their original app was not designed for the iPad. This has nothing to do with the GPU programming per se.
And iOS apps aren't designed for Mac. This is exactly what you are arguing that PC/Console games will be supported on iOS.

Using Metal allows your app to run directly on all modern Apple hardware, from the iPhone to the Mac. If your design your app accordingly, you can access a large market without having to code the things twice.

Example: Pixelmator — they took their powerful image editing engine (developed for the Mac), designed a suitable new UI for it and published it as native iPhone and iPad apps. The UI code is different on each platform, the underlying code is the
same. This also allows them to release new features in sync for all platforms without having to duplicate the work.
Not at all. They need to optimize their apps base on the platform.

The iPad and the Mac now run exactly the same hardware. What do you want to be "optimizing"? The problem is not some sort of mythical "optimization", it's user experience.
Same hardware, different OS. This is why many iOS apps, especially popular one, are not available on macOS. How come FCPX is not available on iPad Pro? Huh? You said using Metal allows your app to run directly on all modern Apple hardware, from the iPhone to the Mac and yet there are so many apps disagreeing with your logic.

And all of this is relevant why? It's not surprising that iOS devs in general don't want their apps to run on macOS — user experience will be terrible and their apps will get bad reviews. What does it have to do with GPU programming or the fact that you can share code across all Apple platforms.

It is certainly possible to publish agh-quality apps across all Appel platforms that use the same source code under the hood (again, Pixelmator is a good example). But it's not "free" either, you have to put some work into it. It's just much easier than with ay other ecosystem.
I have no idea why you keep talking about GPU. I keep saying that having a same API does not mean it's compatible in different OS. Clearly, you didn't read my comments at all. GPU is not the main topic here, my friend.
 
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avkills

macrumors 65816
Jun 14, 2002
1,226
1,074
sunny5,

You do realize that Metal is just an API right? Metal is a GPU programming API like DirectX and OpenGL.

FCPX would be kind of pointless to port to run on iPads because of the limited storage capability of iPads; and also not being able to integrate iPads into professional production workflows.
 

sunny5

macrumors 68000
Jun 11, 2021
1,835
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sunny5,

You do realize that Metal is just an API right? Metal is a GPU programming API like DirectX and OpenGL.

FCPX would be kind of pointless to port to run on iPads because of the limited storage capability of iPads; and also not being able to integrate iPads into professional production workflows.
That's what people saying so I gave them a stupid logic. Having a same API does not mean it's 100% compatible and therefore, they need to optimized it base on the OS.
 

avkills

macrumors 65816
Jun 14, 2002
1,226
1,074
That is not how I read it, but ok. In the particular case of Metal as an API; Metal is in fact 100% compatible across the entire Apple spectrum of hardware. That is why companies make APIs like Metal, to make it easier for developers. But as has been mentioned, the GUI mechanisms between iOS/iPadOS and MacOS are completely different; and so that part of an app needs to be developed accordingly based on the target OS.
 
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robco74

macrumors 6502a
Nov 22, 2020
509
944
Developers have their own reasons for not supporting certain platforms, or even features of all platforms. FB still wont make Instagram for iPad. Some developers will only support a single orientation. The iPhone and iPad have hardware that is unavailable in the Mac.

Apple has done their part by providing developers the tools to bring their apps from iOS to the Mac, and vice-versa. It's up to developers to determine for themselves if they want to.

We'll see what happens when Windows 11 drops and supports Android apps via Amazon. Will Android developers rush to put their apps on Windows?
 
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sunny5

macrumors 68000
Jun 11, 2021
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Developers have their own reasons for not supporting certain platforms, or even features of all platforms. FB still wont make Instagram for iPad. Some developers will only support a single orientation. The iPhone and iPad have hardware that is unavailable in the Mac.

Apple has done their part by providing developers the tools to bring their apps from iOS to the Mac, and vice-versa. It's up to developers to determine for themselves if they want to.

We'll see what happens when Windows 11 drops and supports Android apps via Amazon. Will Android developers rush to put their apps on Windows?
Windows 11 is different. They allow side loading and Android developers don't need to optimize separately for Windows 11 unlike macOS. But of course, we don't know if it works fine without optimization. Apple on the other hand, they want developers to optimize mobile apps on macOS but so far, most of them don't wanna do that.
 

JMacHack

Suspended
Mar 16, 2017
1,965
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I’m impressed that this went from “b-b-b-but muh NVidia! Muh rtx!” To “it’s trash because devs won’t let their iOS apps run on Mac”

can we move them goalposts further?
 
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avkills

macrumors 65816
Jun 14, 2002
1,226
1,074
I’m impressed that this went from “b-b-b-but muh NVidia! Muh rtx!” To “it’s trash because devs won’t let their iOS apps run on Mac”

can we move them goalposts further?
Lol, lighten up Francis! ;)
 

vigilant

macrumors 6502a
Aug 7, 2007
715
288
Nashville, TN
Mark Gurman is saying that Apple is working on a 40-core SoC for the Mac Pro for 2022.

You're Tim Cook, sitting in his nice office, looking at how much money you just spent to make this giant SoC for a relatively small market. In fact, you have to do this every year or every two years to keep the Mac Pro relevant. How do you recuperate some of this money spent?

You create "Apple Cloud". No, not iCloud. Apple Cloud. Like AWS. Where anyone can come and rent a 40-core M3 SoC running on macCloudOS. You get into the cloud hosting business. You file this under the "Services" strategy that you keep pushing to make Wall Street happy.

Soon, you'll be releasing 64-core SoCs with 128-core GPUs, then 128-core SoCs with 256-core GPUs, and so on. Somehow, you're actually beating anything AWS, Azure, Google Cloud can offer... without really trying.

Apple Silicon Cloud.

It wouldn't surprise me if Apple is already testing their own SoCs to power their iCloud service, which currently depend on AWS. Apple was reportedly spending $30m/month on AWS in 2019. It might be $100m+ per month by now given how fast services have grown.
I'm EXTREMELY late at responding to this, so I know that people will say things I'm about to say.

Is this a possibility? 100% yes, this is a possibility of something that could happen. But it's important to acknowledge that while it's truly a possibility, I'd say there's a 5% chance of it happening.

I work in Cloud... for... about 10 years. Apple COULD do this, because if they did the cost per SOC goes down. Apple has their own virtualization tech in the M1, and I will say that it's superior to what Intel and AMD have done from an end user perspective.

Apple could very well do this, and if they did they'd have unprecedented control of their stack in a way that Amazon, and Microsoft, and Google can't match. They'd have 100% control of the hardware costs going into each rack.

Now, having silicon you can use is a huge benefit. Truly. But there is one other issue that they need to figure out to do it in true Apple style. They need the land and connectivity, and the cost to do that is so large I don't expect them to ever do it.

Apple could spend tens of billions of dollars to do this, and end up failing. The upfront infrastructure to do it could be high enough to actually hurt Apple.

Sure, they could use colos to kick it off, but the best way to do it is to own the dirt your silicon sits on.

I don't think Apple will do it in the next 5 years. Could or would they do it? Sure. Given an infinite timescale of course they would. Did any of us think 10 years ago Apple would launch a gaming service, and a TV service, and fund the production of movies? NO! I would have said it would never happen 10 years ago. Here we are today.
 
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robco74

macrumors 6502a
Nov 22, 2020
509
944
Windows 11 is different. They allow side loading and Android developers don't need to optimize separately for Windows 11 unlike macOS. But of course, we don't know if it works fine without optimization. Apple on the other hand, they want developers to optimize mobile apps on macOS but so far, most of them don't wanna do that.
Right, and what will the end user experience be like with Android apps on Windows? Given that MS has never really optimized Windows for touch input, I'm not terribly optimistic.

Apple has given developers another path to Mac, and for some apps, it's viable, but for others it's not. Apple can only provide the tools. There are many reasons why developers might not want to bring their apps to the Mac. Perhaps they prefer users just use the web instead. I'm sure there are plenty of Android apps that don't have Windows native app equivalents, or will even run on Chromebook. MS and Google can make the tools available, but developers have to decide how to proceed. There are lots of different factors that go into this decision making, technical, business needs, other priorities.
 

jdb8167

macrumors 601
Nov 17, 2008
4,859
4,599
Android developers don't need to optimize separately for Windows 11 unlike macOS.
I've mostly stayed out this discussion but I have to ask, what do iOS developers "need" to optimize for macOS on M1? iOS and iPadOS developers may opt out of supporting their mobile apps on M1 Macs but if they allow the apps to be used on Macs, they work exactly the same as when run on the iOS/iPadOS devices. Apple provides the provisions for simulating touch. I can't imagine Android on Windows will be better in any way.
 
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leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,516
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I have no idea why you keep talking about GPU. I keep saying that having a same API does not mean it's compatible in different OS. Clearly, you didn't read my comments at all. GPU is not the main topic here, my friend.

Using the common Apple APIs (and relying on the fact that different Apple devices nowadays run the same hardware) you an build apps for different platforms that share the backend logic. I am talking about GPU because the discussion I entered was about GPU APIs. I also gave you a concrete example: Pixelmator. By leveraging Apple's unified APIs as well as hardware capabilities they can share their sophisticated image editing engine to build high-quality apps for the Mac, the iPhone and the iPad. This is not possible with technologies like CUDA that only run on a subset of available hardware and not available at all on mobile. That is exactly what was meant that targeting Metal gives you an opportunity to access a bigger market. Usually, developing the backend technology is a much more time- and resource-consuming task than developing the frontend. And Apple allows you to develop fundamental technologies on one platform and ship them across all platforms with minimal testing. In fact, there are plenty of excellent apps that offer high-quality dedicated versions for each of the Apple's platforms, and this is one of the core strengths of the ecosystem.

Discussion about why developer X does not do it or why they don't want to whitelist their iOS app to run on M1 Macs are completely irrelevant.

Windows 11 is different. They allow side loading and Android developers don't need to optimize separately for Windows 11 unlike macOS. But of course, we don't know if it works fine without optimization. Apple on the other hand, they want developers to optimize mobile apps on macOS but so far, most of them don't wanna do that.

Why are you so obsessed about running mobile apps on your desktop system? Who cares? Ok, so Windows 11 includes a full android emulator, bu-hu. So you'll be able to run subpar apps on a system not designed for running these apps. If that's what you need, great, then you've found your system. But please stop depicting it as some sort of killer feature. You are more or less the only one on these forums who keeps talking about it, everyone else literally does not care.

Apple offers the devs and option to run their iOS apps in the desktop environments, and some devs take that option, if it makes sense for them. For most apps, it doesn't make any sense. It's an opportunity, not a requirement. I am sure that more devs will take that opportunity going forward as Apple Silicon Macs become more ubiquitous and new ways to design apps are becoming popular.
 
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sunny5

macrumors 68000
Jun 11, 2021
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I've mostly stayed out this discussion but I have to ask, what do iOS developers "need" to optimize for macOS on M1? iOS and iPadOS developers may opt out of supporting their mobile apps on M1 Macs but if they allow the apps to be used on Macs, they work exactly the same as when run on the iOS/iPadOS devices. Apple provides the provisions for simulating touch. I can't imagine Android on Windows will be better in any way.
The control simulator sucks. I already tested it with Among us and it doesn't work properly. You can't even customize it so I find it very useless. Perhaps, Apple didn't even prepare it properly.

Since Apple blocked side loading, why don't you ask them? Clearly, Apple does not want you to port mobile apps to Mac directly without any optimizations such as UI, resolution, touch interface, and more.
 

jdb8167

macrumors 601
Nov 17, 2008
4,859
4,599
The control simulator sucks. I already tested it with Among us and it doesn't work properly. You can't even customize it so I find it very useless. Perhaps, Apple didn't even prepare it properly.

Since Apple blocked side loading, why don't you ask them? Clearly, Apple does not want you to port mobile apps to Mac directly without any optimizations such as UI, resolution, touch interface, and more.
And you are assuming that Android apps on Windows 11 is not going to suck? Good luck with that.

Apple blocking side loading is nothing new. Why bring it up in a discussion about optimizing for a particular OS? It isn't relevant. Apple put a lot of effort in supporting iOS/iPadOS in Big Sur so I don't understand why you think Apple doesn't want mobile apps. They made it a major point when introducing the M1. It just turns out that it isn't really very important for most Mac users.
 

leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,516
19,664
Since Apple blocked side loading, why don't you ask them? Clearly, Apple does not want you to port mobile apps to Mac directly without any optimizations such as UI, resolution, touch interface, and more.

Apple didn't "block" side loading, they fixed a bug that permitted side loading in the first place. It was never intended to be supporting. And what yo are malign about is not "porting mobile apps", it's running monies apps on the desktop. For porting apps, you have Catalyst. Apple obviously wants the devs to test their app before enabling it to be run on desktop. Again, it's an opportunity, not a mandatory feature.
 

sunny5

macrumors 68000
Jun 11, 2021
1,835
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And you are assuming that Android apps on Windows 11 is not going to suck? Good luck with that.

Apple blocking side loading is nothing new. Why bring it up in a discussion about optimizing for a particular OS? It isn't relevant. Apple put a lot of effort in supporting iOS/iPadOS in Big Sur so I don't understand why you think Apple doesn't want mobile apps. They made it a major point when introducing the M1. It just turns out that it isn't really very important for most Mac users.
Did I ever say Android on Windows 11 will be better? Stop making false statements.

Apple blocking side loading is nothing new.
So? Doesn't mean their decision was good. So far, many developers aren't even interested to port their mobile apps to macOS.

Why bring it up in a discussion about optimizing for a particular OS?
Because it doesn't work properly. Touch system on macOS sucks so I have to struggle with the setting or not using it. Do you really think mobile apps will just work on macOS right away? If not, then what's the point of bringing mobile apps to macOS?

Apple put a lot of effort in supporting iOS/iPadOS in Big Sur so I don't understand why you think Apple doesn't want mobile apps.
Because a lot of mobile apps aren't supported on macOS and most of them are trash apps. Among us? The touch based controlling system and touch emulator sucks and therefore, I don't even play it on macOS.

They made it a major point when introducing the M1. It just turns out that it isn't really very important for most Mac users.
No, it turns out mobile apps on macOS is useless. That's why Mac users aren't using it.
 

sunny5

macrumors 68000
Jun 11, 2021
1,835
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I use two iPadOS apps regularly. The MLB app and Overcast a podcast player. They both work pretty well. No complaints.
I get that but a lot of mobile aren't that useful or trash and all mobile apps that I'm using on both iPhone and iPad aren't supported on macOS.
 

jdb8167

macrumors 601
Nov 17, 2008
4,859
4,599
I get that but a lot of mobile aren't that useful or trash and all mobile apps that I'm using on both iPhone and iPad aren't supported on macOS.
Most mobile apps are trash in general. Nothing new there. Not supported on macOS is the developer's decision. The developer owns the copyrights to the code, they legally get to decide on the license.
 

Andropov

macrumors 6502a
May 3, 2012
746
990
Spain
I told you, iOS developers aren't even interested in supporting macOS from Mac App Store and it's a fact. I don't care about the same API, it just doesn't work on different OS right away and therefore, it's useless. Also, who even wanna spend their time and money on their mobile apps to macOS? It's been more than 1 year since Apple Silicon transition announced with the transition kit and yet the amount of mobile apps on Mac store is so pathetically poor. They don't even allow side loading. Are there even useful iPad apps on Mac App Store that we can use? Even iPad suffer from lack of optimization from iOS apps so I don't find this as a special case or already expected. This is why what we were expecting is delusional.

You were complaining five posts ago that Apple dropped support for 32-bit apps despite developers having more than a decade to update their apps. And yet you feel that the lack of iPadOS apps on macOS after a SINGLE year means that the whole thing has been a failure.
 
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sunny5

macrumors 68000
Jun 11, 2021
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You were complaining five posts ago that Apple dropped support for 32-bit apps despite developers having more than a decade to update their apps. And yet you feel that the lack of iPadOS apps on macOS after a SINGLE year means that the whole thing has been a failure.
lol, I didn't say anything about 32 bit. Go and check comments again, it was Bootlox. Also, developers had enough time to port their software. Why, some people said they are using same architecture and GPU so it's not hard to port huh? Did they even announced any improvements for using mobile apps on macOS Monterey?
 

Andropov

macrumors 6502a
May 3, 2012
746
990
Spain
lol, I didn't say anything about 32 bit. Go and check comments again, it was Bootlox.
Whoops. Sorry, got you mixed up.

lol, I didn't say anything about 32 bit. Go and check comments again, it was Bootlox. Also, developers had enough time to port their software. Why, some people said they are using same architecture and GPU so it's not hard to port huh? Did they even announced any improvements for using mobile apps on macOS Monterey?

The backend and logic of the app is ported trivially, even if you make use of the GPU, as long as you're using Metal. For 'pro' apps that's probably the biggest portion of the code, and making the GPU code cross-platform for all apps that use Metal is HUGE, but you'd still need to adapt the UI (which for a large app takes years, not months).

Apple has introduced frameworks that make writing cross-platform UI code much easier, so even the UI code will be reusable in the future. Writing an app in SwiftUI *today* makes reusable cross-platform UI code trivially easy, but no one is using it yet.

If you're referring to the feature of running iOS apps as-is on Apple Silicon Macs, that requires no developer effort, but it's a terrible UX. That won't change no matter how much effort Apple puts on making the simulator better. Instead, they made a way for developers to make apps for macOS that actually have good UX, but that will take time.
 

sunny5

macrumors 68000
Jun 11, 2021
1,835
1,706
Whoops. Sorry, got you mixed up.



The backend and logic of the app is ported trivially, even if you make use of the GPU, as long as you're using Metal. For 'pro' apps that's probably the biggest portion of the code, and making the GPU code cross-platform for all apps that use Metal is HUGE, but you'd still need to adapt the UI (which for a large app takes years, not months).

Apple has introduced frameworks that make writing cross-platform UI code much easier, so even the UI code will be reusable in the future. Writing an app in SwiftUI *today* makes reusable cross-platform UI code trivially easy, but no one is using it yet.

If you're referring to the feature of running iOS apps as-is on Apple Silicon Macs, that requires no developer effort, but it's a terrible UX. That won't change no matter how much effort Apple puts on making the simulator better. Instead, they made a way for developers to make apps for macOS that actually have good UX, but that will take time.
Still, most mobile apps aren't properly supported on macOS even after one year and it seems even major brands aren't interested to port their apps to macOS. At this point, it's hopeless.
 

robco74

macrumors 6502a
Nov 22, 2020
509
944
The overwhelming majority of macOS users are still on Intel machines. Intel machines can't run iOS/iPadOS apps. Can you see why modifying apps to run on the Mac might lower priority over other features or considerations? It hasn't been a year yet, and a few folks have been distracted by other events. Just because you can't get every iOS app on macOS doesn't mean the Mac is doomed.
 
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