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I'll stand with you against software subscriptions, but I won't for service subscriptions that incur a constant expense to support my requirements. Like Dropbox, for example; I expect them to charge me regularly to provide my storage and 24x7 access to it. I also get monthly bills from Azure and AWS for the resources I use. Heck, I don't have solar panels, so I also pay the utility company for my electricity.

I think 1Password considers themselves to be a service offering, especially since they've dropped local vaults completely. The applications they provide are various ways to access their service and they give them away for free. You're not required to use them. You might write your own client application following some API instructions they provide on their website. You can also get at your vaults with just a browser.

I'm disappointed they moved to a service offering, but I don't stand against service offerings in general. If I can't afford a service or think it's charging too much for the value it's offering, then I won't use it.

you are correct, amid my typing I included services unintentionally. Services can't be 1 time payment, but ongoing cost. I guess I meant after sale services like expecting to have updates for the app for the foreseeable future and support like answering customer questions. There is an app called CrossOver that they only sell the current offering with no updates, if they release a new update after 3 weeks you have to rebuy the app.

update: just checked they changed to $50/12 month support or their old offering $500 for lifetime. You have to rebuy(subscribe) $50 yearly for the continous updates which amounts to $4/month
 
.

Servers cost money to run, where would the monthly expense pay by whom? Out of their pockets and each engineer's pockets? $ 60-lifetime license use for 5 years+ with ongoing support + server cost?


i am happy to inform you Bitwarden does exactly this for free using open source software , and their paid tier is only $10 a year, $0.83/month , and 72% cheaper than 1password.

you drank Agilebits Kool-Aid
 
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i am happy to inform you Bitwarden does exactly this for free using open source software , and their paid tier is only $10 a year, $0.83/month , and 72% cheaper than 1password.

you drank Agilebits Kool-Aid

I think you're missing @TinyMito's point since you are using Bitwarden as a counterexample.

Yeah, Bitwarden is cheaper, but they are still funded exclusively by their subscriptions. It's true that 1Password doesn't offer free versions. But, I believe that Bitwarden's free versions are critical to their business model, otherwise they would lose support from the open source community and that would cut into their bottom line.

Two different companies, with two different angles on profit, both based on subscriptions for revenue.

Bitwarden is not funded by the more traditional model of one-time purchase with paid upgrades on major version changes. That funding model is what many people on this thread want 1Password to offer and believe would be enough to support ongoing costs. Bitwarden is not proof that such a model would work. There are other company's that might offer the proof; I'd look to them if you want to argue against subscriptions.
 
I think you're missing @TinyMito's point since you are using Bitwarden as a counterexample.

Yeah, Bitwarden is cheaper, but they are still funded exclusively by their subscriptions. It's true that 1Password doesn't offer free versions. But, I believe that Bitwarden's free versions are critical to their business model, otherwise they would lose support from the open source community and that would cut into their bottom line.

Two different companies, with two different angles on profit, both based on subscriptions for revenue.

Bitwarden is not funded by the more traditional model of one-time purchase with paid upgrades on major version changes. That funding model is what many people on this thread want 1Password to offer and believe would be enough to support ongoing costs. Bitwarden is not proof that such a model would work. There are other company's that might offer the proof; I'd look to them if you want to argue against subscriptions.

Well, lets put things into perspective a bit. I assume the calculations is correct but I could be wrong.

Lets assume 1password has 50 million subscibers at 250kb password db each, subscribed at $3/month. If we assume that each GB on AWS costs $0.03 , then:-

250kb X 50M customers = 12500 GB * $0.03/GB per month = server costs $375 per month.

Literally one person can pay it out of his pocket out of the good of his heart.

meanwhile:-

50 Million customers x $3/m = $150 million each month.

$150, 000, 000 - $374 = $149, 999, 625 monthly profit for Agilebits . Surely enough to cover their "developer" salaries that cost $100K a year/$8.3K a month. In fact, it should be enough to pay 18 thousand developers and still make a profit!!

hopefully thats enough developers to build a password manager app.

***************************

My math can be wrong, but however wrong it is the point to send across is that server cost is a lie to make you drink AgileBits Kool-Aid. I assumed 50 million customers in exaggeration just to show that if they had as much as 50 Million customers it will only cost them $400 or so a month to host their 1password data.

there is no "offsetting" here by subscribers or non subscribers, server costs to host txt data of passwords is just cheap.
 
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I'm a 1PW user since day one. I bought the "Pro" version of the IOS version before it became free. Currently I'm using 1PW 6.8.9 (Mac Appstore) with stand alone licence and the IOS 7.9.3. I don't have a 1PW account and my main vault is in the iCloud.

Version 6.8.9 works without a problem with all versions of macOS, all the way to the most current version of the Monterey. I don't use the Safari extension because for Safari logins, Apple keychain is more than adequate. 1PW is without an equal for attachments, software licence keys, Passports, Drivers Licences, Credit Cards, Legal Documents etc especially with picture attachments.

My wife uses the same setup with her Mac and iPhone but she has her own private vault kept in her iCloud account separate from mine. Since 1PW was the Appstore version, I just signed her Apps with my Apple ID on her Mac and IOS devices. This way there is no need for a family share setup.

I will continue to use 1PW this way as long as I can. For the time being, this is a better solution for me as opposed to switching to a totally new platform.

If 1PW allowed standalone licences again, I would be glad to pay for an upgrade. I don't buy their defending argument for not giving the choice to the customers and justifying their subscription only model for safety and better value. Since V6 and V7 of 1PW standalone versions still work for those who purchased before they switched to the subscription model, it proves that there is no technical reason for not offering both the subscription and the standalone versions.

If Agilebits is so confident that given the choice, most customers would prefer the subscription model, put your money where your mouth is and let the customers decide, without burying the standalone licence so deep in the menu that it's almost impossible to find, like the way it was.

Greed and easy way to double the revenue as far as I'm concerned.

The issue you’re going to have (all of us will, in fact) is that 6.8.9 is an Intel binary. It will work on Monterey thanks to Rosetta 2. When Apple drops Rosetta 2 after completing its move from Intel CPUs, every Intel binary will stop working, with no workaround for that particular binary. So we all are on borrowed time for Intel binaries.

BL.
 
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Just a question: if Apple/Safari keychain provides password and username storage, why do I need 1P?

Would you like to store info besides usernames and passwords?

That's where password managers like 1PW, Enpass, Codebook, Bitwarden, etc., come in. With all of those, I can store:
  • usernames and passwords
  • Credit card info
  • Bank account info (account number, routing number, PIN, etc.)
  • travel info (frequent flyer card numbers, rental car memberships, rewards programs, etc.)
  • PII (driver's license number/ID number, passport info, SSN, etc.)
  • WiFi passwords
  • Software license keys
  • any secure notes taken
Keychain (Safari, iCloud, etc.) doesn't cover all of that, plus make it portable outside of Apple's ecosystem, if needed. And this isn't even getting into the issue of storing that data in a place outside of your possession.

BL.
 
Just a question: if Apple/Safari keychain provides password and username storage, why do I need 1P?
- It's Safari only (no other browsers).
- no notes
- no several passwords for websites
- no attachments
- no history (old passwords gone)
- no standalone app (ok - maybe you don't need it)
- ...
 
if Apple/Safari keychain provides password and username storage, why do I need 1P?

Keychain also stores password in the cloud, which I do not want for at least most of my password and which for me is the main reason why I will switch away from 1PW.

Feature wise and regarding the UI keychain is not even close to being a match for 1PW and most of the password managers I tested. It is Ok for storing passwords for some web forums and maybe some file servers, but not more.
 
Well, lets put things into perspective a bit. I assume the calculations is correct but I could be wrong.

Lets assume 1password has 50 million subscibers at 250kb password db each, subscribed at $3/month. If we assume that each GB on AWS costs $0.03 , then:-

250kb X 50M customers = 12500 GB * $0.03/GB per month = server costs $375 per month.

Literally one person can pay it out of his pocket out of the good of his heart.

meanwhile:-

50 Million customers x $3/m = $150 million each month.

$150, 000, 000 - $374 = $149, 999, 625 monthly profit for Agilebits . Surely enough to cover their "developer" salaries that cost $100K a year/$8.3K a month. In fact, it should be enough to pay 18 thousand developers and still make a profit!!

hopefully thats enough developers to build a password manager app.

***************************

My math can be wrong, but however wrong it is the point to send across is that server cost is a lie to make you drink AgileBits Kool-Aid. I assumed 50 million customers in exaggeration just to show that if they had as much as 50 Million customers it will only cost them $400 or so a month to host their 1password data.

there is no "offsetting" here by subscribers or non subscribers, server costs to host txt data of passwords is just cheap.

You're missing the point.

@TinyMito was making the point the subscriptions were required to meet ongoing costs. You provided Bitwarden as a counterexample. Bitwarden counts on subscriptions to meet ongoing costs.
 
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Just a question: if Apple/Safari keychain provides password and username storage, why do I need 1P?

depends on your needs and use style. If you only use Apple products and only Safari web browser, it might fit you but as others mentioned the other managers are multiplatform and can do so much more.
 
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You're missing the point.

@TinyMito was making the point the subscriptions were required to meet ongoing costs. You provided Bitwarden as a counterexample. Bitwarden counts on subscriptions to meet ongoing costs.

My point was server costs is a lie to force subscription. There is no on-going cost for the most part. There is on going greed. Let me explain.

So we assume 5 year cycle purchase.

$80 license price/ 5 years = $16 per year which is still 60% higher than Bitwarden's $10 ! They can even put it in the bank during that period and gain interest on it and make it even more since they got their money upfront!

So you see, with numbers and proof even if they sell one time $80 license they will STILL make more money than Bitwarden's subscription and they have it better than Bitwarden because they got all their money upfront and do not have to wait to collect it over 5 years. Saying they have to turn into subscription to "meet ongoing costs" is a lie that what really does is more than DOUBLE their profits from $80 million to $180 million during the same time period hidden under the cover "its just $3 a month! what a deal!"


DO NOT DRINK THE KOOL-AID!!

---------------

I actually do not have a problem if 1password showed up and said this is our product we are renting it for $3/month take it or leave it. This is why I have no problem with RoboFarm ($23 a year) or Dashlane ($60) a year. I do not hate them, I just do not like their product at that subscription price, stored in the cloud. I do not have a problem if 1PW started a subscription tier for $3/month for people who actually do want to store in the cloud.

However I do have a problem when 1password becomes rich and successful over 10 years based on license system then comes along and strips away features, adds bloat, and force a subscription only model and say "OnGoInG cOsTs , We NeEd To EaT . ItS bEtTeR fOr OuR cUsToMeRs!!"

no, they got rich based on those customers and now they want to extort their wallets even more by trying encage them in their app system.

I am not letting subscription to be the norm for apps, I will pay those who sell license(or FOSS) to support them, and I will do as much as I can to not let a monopoly or oligopoly control the customer. Thats my philosophy.
 
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depends on your needs and use style. If you only use Apple products and only Safari web browser, it might fit you but as others mentioned the other managers are multiplatform and can do so much more.

Not only just that, but if I'm looking at things right, Safari/iCloud keychain is only applicable to the current user logged in to that device or into iCloud at that time. Most, if not all other major password managers will allow you to have multiple vaults for multiple people. For example, I kept a separate vault of passwords, credentials and other personal info for my father...

.. That seriously paid off, because he was incapacitated in the hospital, in no sound mind or body to make his own decisions (legal, medical, financial, or otherwise), leaving me with Power of Attorney over all of his medical and financial business. having a vault with his info came in handy, as that gave me all of his login IDs and passwords to his online bank, shopping, and any other online accounts he had. I could pay his bills in his name, enter into any business transaction in his name, the entire lot.

Yes, I could have included all of that into my vault, but what helped with keeping it separate is that I could sync the vault I created for him on my Mac/PC to his Mac, despite the fact that he was in the midwest USA and I was in California (all of this without a cloud-based service; VPN to the rescue).

In short, the scope of Keychain may be limited only to the user logged in at the time, where a dedicated password manager is very scalable.

BL.
 
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I don't like subs and I have spoken out against 1Password in the past. But I have subbed to their family plan since the last 3 years. I buy their 125$ gift cards from their website for 100$ and have signed up for the family subscription. So it actually works out to be a dollar per person per month. Honestly, not that bad even though I hate subs.

Having said that, I am self hosting my own photo service, my own media server etc nowadays. I am gonna try out Bitwarden in a few months... But if I have to support the Bitwarden server for the family, then I am pretty sure my time is worth more than what I am saving by self hosting Bitwarden.

And anyway, I thought for TOTP passwords, you had to pay Bitwarden even if you choose to self-host? Or I probably heard someone has a Bitwarden wrapper container that allows you to use free TOTPs. But I am not sure I trust enough to host my passwords in a non-official implementation..especially with all the compromises that happen today in open source software and also coupled with the fact that there will be less eyes on non-official implementations
 
I don't like subs and I have spoken out against 1Password in the past. But I have subbed to their family plan since the last 3 years. I buy their 125$ gift cards from their website for 100$ and have signed up for the family subscription. So it actually works out to be a dollar per person per month. Honestly, not that bad even though I hate subs.

Having said that, I am self hosting my own photo service, my own media server etc nowadays. I am gonna try out Bitwarden in a few months... But if I have to support the Bitwarden server for the family, then I am pretty sure my time is worth more than what I am saving by self hosting Bitwarden.

And anyway, I thought for TOTP passwords, you had to pay Bitwarden even if you choose to self-host? Or I probably heard someone has a Bitwarden wrapper container that allows you to use free TOTPs. But I am not sure I trust enough to host my passwords in a non-official implementation..especially with all the compromises that happen today in open source software and also coupled with the fact that there will be less eyes on non-official implementations

Good question for these all around. I chose not to go with Bitwarden because with maintaining enough servers as is for my job, I'd rather not have to build a server and run Docker on top of that just to maintain my passwords and sensitive info. 1Password has that all internal to the application when running it with a standalone vault, so I wanted the same. Both Enpass and Codebook have that, so I went that route. Additionally, I could sync my PC and my iPhone to the vault on my Mac and be completely good. I can also back up that vault to my NAS and have my bases for disaster recovery handled.

If you decide to self-host with Bitwarden, I'd suggest to either host it in that Docker container, then back it up to your NAS, or host it on your NAS and be sure to back up the NAS, as any redundancy on your NAS is not a backup solution.

BL.
 
I don't like subs and I have spoken out against 1Password in the past. But I have subbed to their family plan since the last 3 years. I buy their 125$ gift cards from their website for 100$ and have signed up for the family subscription. So it actually works out to be a dollar per person per month. Honestly, not that bad even though I hate subs.

Having said that, I am self hosting my own photo service, my own media server etc nowadays. I am gonna try out Bitwarden in a few months... But if I have to support the Bitwarden server for the family, then I am pretty sure my time is worth more than what I am saving by self hosting Bitwarden.

I'm a little confused by your statement. If you've had a 1PW sub that means your data is on their server. Why do you "have to support the Bitwarden server" then? Self hosting is an option, but not a requirement. You could choose the plan where your Bitwarden vault is online and you do zero maintenance. Not attacking, just trying to understand.
 
So you see, with numbers and proof...

I applaud your effort to justify your opinions with rational thought. I would encourage you to get some support from someone who has experience running a large business (or an MBA) and confirm some of your assumptions. In an earlier post you asserted that AgileBits monthly expenses, other than salaries, are just $374. Run that by someone with more experience to see if anything of that order of magnitude is a possible run rate for a company with 500 employees. Redoing your calculations with more input could alter your opinions substantially.

And, nothing about what you are saying relates to my post.
 
A one-time purchase is no longer feasible when the software requires sync with an online server.

Servers cost money to run, where would the monthly expense pay by whom? Out of their pockets and each engineer's pockets? $ 60-lifetime license use for 5 years+ with ongoing support + server cost?

Or maybe don't change the software such that it requires using 1Password's servers?

v7 and earlier did just fine syncing via the user's iCloud or Dropbox.

Agilebits chose to remove that capability with v8.
 
Any one has been on EnPass for sometime now? what is your feedback?
Been on it a few weeks. I like it and am happy I made the switch. Previously on 1Password v7 with perpetual license.

Seems to work fine, had to get used to some stuff being done a little differently (not significant enuf that I could tell you what though.

Only annoyance is it claims a number of my 1P generated passwords are weak; I'd used the "Memorable Password" with three words for secondary non-financial stuff. Even the four-word variety is just average as far as Enpass is concerned.
 
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Just a question: if Apple/Safari keychain provides password and username storage, why do I need 1P?

If *all* you want to store are passwords and usernames, you're always using these from an Apple device, and you're not using browsers other than Safari, then you don't need anything more than keychain.

Many of us using other software are storing other stuff like credit cards, passport info, SSN info, other various data which we want to keep encrypted and sync between our devices.
 
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I applaud your effort to justify your opinions with rational thought. I would encourage you to get some support from someone who has experience running a large business (or an MBA) and confirm some of your assumptions. In an earlier post you asserted that AgileBits monthly expenses, other than salaries, are just $374. Run that by someone with more experience to see if anything of that order of magnitude is a possible run rate for a company with 500 employees. Redoing your calculations with more input could alter your opinions substantially.

And, nothing about what you are saying relates to my post.

you are twisting my words, I didn't say their only costs are $374 I said justifying subscription as mandatory because of server costs ($374) is a lie. This is just an example to simplify things and prove a point but I believe you require a detailed accounting spreadsheet with every cost and every revenue to prove that they were making money even with their license model and it does cover all ongoing costs AND makes profit.

Agile bits have been around near 10 years before even introducing subscription, care to explain how they survived and grew that long with their ongoing costs putting them in the negative each year?
 
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Not only just that, but if I'm looking at things right, Safari/iCloud keychain is only applicable to the current user logged in to that device or into iCloud at that time. Most, if not all other major password managers will allow you to have multiple vaults for multiple people. For example, I kept a separate vault of passwords, credentials and other personal info for my father...

.. That seriously paid off, because he was incapacitated in the hospital, in no sound mind or body to make his own decisions (legal, medical, financial, or otherwise), leaving me with Power of Attorney over all of his medical and financial business. having a vault with his info came in handy, as that gave me all of his login IDs and passwords to his online bank, shopping, and any other online accounts he had. I could pay his bills in his name, enter into any business transaction in his name, the entire lot.

Yes, I could have included all of that into my vault, but what helped with keeping it separate is that I could sync the vault I created for him on my Mac/PC to his Mac, despite the fact that he was in the midwest USA and I was in California (all of this without a cloud-based service; VPN to the rescue).

In short, the scope of Keychain may be limited only to the user logged in at the time, where a dedicated password manager is very scalable.

BL.

How do you sync from you computer to your father's computer without a cloud?

I don't like subs and I have spoken out against 1Password in the past. But I have subbed to their family plan since the last 3 years. I buy their 125$ gift cards from their website for 100$ and have signed up for the family subscription. So it actually works out to be a dollar per person per month. Honestly, not that bad even though I hate subs.

Having said that, I am self hosting my own photo service, my own media server etc nowadays. I am gonna try out Bitwarden in a few months... But if I have to support the Bitwarden server for the family, then I am pretty sure my time is worth more than what I am saving by self hosting Bitwarden.

And anyway, I thought for TOTP passwords, you had to pay Bitwarden even if you choose to self-host? Or I probably heard someone has a Bitwarden wrapper container that allows you to use free TOTPs. But I am not sure I trust enough to host my passwords in a non-official implementation..especially with all the compromises that happen today in open source software and also coupled with the fact that there will be less eyes on non-official implementations

This is another point to show the "ongoing" costs lie. If you get a personal subscription (1 person) its $36/year , but for 5 users its only $12/year/person . I mean how does that even work and explain "server costs" ??

That being said, if you will continue on subscription and do not mind cloud storage you might as well stay with 1password. The price is cheap enough and your family probably won't like the migration.

If you just want to move away from 1password out of spite for the company, or like to support FOSS, you can use Bitwarden. Similarly there are other options you see in my first post.

Been on it a few weeks. I like it and am happy I made the switch. Previously on 1Password v7 with perpetual license.

Seems to work fine, had to get used to some stuff being done a little differently (not significant enuf that I could tell you what though.

Only annoyance is it claims a number of my 1P generated passwords are weak; I'd used the "Memorable Password" with three words for secondary non-financial stuff. Even the four-word variety is just average as far as Enpass is concerned.

Great to hear, I will be jumping ship soon. I am sure you can ask for adjustments in their forums or maybe they have a feedback button.

On the German IT Webseite heise.de was a report, that 1PW got another 620 million USD risk capital, the whole company is estimated to be worth 6.8 billion USD. Here the report (in German): https://www.heise.de/news/1Password...illionen-US-Dollar-Risikokapital-6333551.html

6.8 billion, for a password manager??

but... but... they have to force subscription because they do not make enough money to cover server costs, did you know 1 developer salary is like $100K a year? where will they get that?! ??

There's rather a bit more to their offerings than just a "password manager" so...


I do not see it, they just offer their same 1password app for individual to businesses like every other password manager? Just a password manager it seems.

===============================

I see different pricing for individuals and business. I know all companies do this, but as a business owner what stops me from using their family plan for my employees?

Family plan= $12/user
Business= $96/user

the difference is $84 , multiply that by 100 employees and that will be $8400 per year. Or you could just support FOSS and signup for the even cheaper $10 Bitwarden ??
 
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