(2019) 16" is HOT & NOISY with an external monitor! :(

[bill-p]

Don't bother running Bootcamp especially with AMD eGPU. The problem is the driver is not universally compatible. If you install the driver that comes with Bootcamp for the 16" MacBook, the eGPU won't work properly, if at all. And that's assuming you have already hacked the bootloader to bypass error 12. And then if you try to install drivers for the eGPU, it won't be pretty when you want to boot the MacBook into Bootcamp without the eGPU connected.

This is where an nVidia GPU does slightly better (if you can solve error 12) because you won't run into driver issues.

Also, forget about using the other Thunderbolt 3 ports to connect to other external monitors. It just flat out won't work properly because you can't activate the dGPU while the eGPU is active. It's an either-or situation.

So my current conclusion on Bootcamp is: just use a Windows 10 laptop or build a Windows 10 PC if you absolutely must do that. Saves the headache down the line.

 

[petterihiisila]

Also, forget about using the other Thunderbolt 3 ports to connect to other external monitors. It just flat out won't work properly because you can't activate the dGPU while the eGPU is active. It's an either-or situation.

That's interesting. If you know that from personal experience, this would be a good reason for me to cancel the eGPU order.

Are you saying that it's impossible to connect a Thunderbolt (or any ext) monitor to one side (forcing dGPU), and an eGPU to the other, and expect both sides to work, while in clamshell mode? Because that would limit the options even further.

LG 5k has a TB3 input, so the only eGPU option is Blackmagic, which is out of stock. That's why the plan is/was to connect it directly to the Mac, and add a Razer Core for the two other displays.

Have you tested something like this yourself, or do you have references to point at? And what is the behavior in that configuration then? The direct-connect TB3 monitor drops offline?

Edit: I discussed with an Apple senior support person earlier today, and the mutual conclusion was that the above setup would be a viable option to try, since the MacBook is working "as expected" --> #wontfix. That's why I'm double surprised, if it isn't. I reasonably (?) expected that they'd know if it wouldn't work. 🤔

 

[bill-p]

In Mac OS, it'll work. But in Bootcamp, it's an either-or situation. You can only run eGPU or dGPU, not both at the same time.

I have a Thunderbolt 3 display, so yeah, I have tried that.

 

[petterihiisila]

In Mac OS, it'll work. But in Bootcamp, it's an either-or situation. You can only run eGPU or dGPU, not both at the same time.

I have a Thunderbolt 3 display, so yeah, I have tried that.

Ok, that's a very helpful clarification, thank you. Then I'll let the order go through. Boot Camp isn't a big use case for me.

For the record, if someone else is pondering an eGPU and its tradeoffs: I realize that the eGPU will create some noise pollution of its own, the PSU in particular. Plan A is to hang it under the desk, where some of the decibels and frequencies are blocked by the table. Distant plan B: I may replace one or both fans (or the PSU) of the Razer, if the functionality is otherwise great, but the noise profile is still annoying. There's no plan C. 🤣

 

[Norbert Mikołajczyk]

Don't bother running Bootcamp especially with AMD eGPU. The problem is the driver is not universally compatible. If you install the driver that comes with Bootcamp for the 16" MacBook, the eGPU won't work properly, if at all. And that's assuming you have already hacked the bootloader to bypass error 12. And then if you try to install drivers for the eGPU, it won't be pretty when you want to boot the MacBook into Bootcamp without the eGPU connected.

This is where an nVidia GPU does slightly better (if you can solve error 12) because you won't run into driver issues.

Also, forget about using the other Thunderbolt 3 ports to connect to other external monitors. It just flat out won't work properly because you can't activate the dGPU while the eGPU is active. It's an either-or situation.

So my current conclusion on Bootcamp is: just use a Windows 10 laptop or build a Windows 10 PC if you absolutely must do that. Saves the headache down the line.

Mostly i won’t agree, first you don’t need boot loader to bypass error 12, you need to play with turning off/on devices in manager devices each time as I do. 2nd - egpu works fine With and without dgpu with no performance difference. if you want both you need to install drivers from bootcampdrivers.com. If you want only egpu then there is a way to install the newest drivers from amd all in all it’s complicated to set it up properly. Boot camp, amd gpu is fine if you know how to set all up Talk in the town is that Nvidia GPUs are easier. For more info please visit egpu.io website.

 

[Grohowiak]

So... lid open + 2K ultrawide (eGPU) + 2K (eGPU) and everything should work cool on mac side without throwing radeon to high heavens?
I never even considered eGPU and I do run few Win 10 machines so I'm quite familiar with "tinkering"
Bootcamp is just a bonus so was wondering about it. OSX is what I am mostly interested in.

 

[bill-p]

Mostly i won’t agree, first you don’t need boot loader to bypass error 12, you need to play with turning off/on devices in manager devices each time as I do. 2nd - egpu works fine With and without dgpu with no performance difference. if you want both you need to install drivers from bootcampdrivers.com. If you want only egpu then there is a way to install the newest drivers from amd all in all it’s complicated to set it up properly. Boot camp, amd gpu is fine if you know how to set all up Talk in the town is that Nvidia GPUs are easier. For more info please visit egpu.io website.

For the 16" MacBook, or at least my setup, I needed to hack the bootloader. Turning on/off devices in Device Manager will not work. And no, drivers from bootcampdrivers.com won't work properly. 2019 drivers have poor support for Radeon 5700XT, which I have, and 2020 drivers won't work with Eyefinity at all, which is necessary for my multi-monitor setup.

Also, egpu.io is the place where the bootloader hack originated from.

I also have nVidia GeForce 1070, and yeah, it is easier, but the bootloader hack still disables dGPU.

This is from my own experience, not theoretical.

 

[Norbert Mikołajczyk]

So... lid open + 2K ultrawide (eGPU) + 2K (eGPU) and everything should work cool on mac side without throwing radeon to high heavens?
I never even considered eGPU and I do run few Win 10 machines so I'm quite familiar with "tinkering"
Bootcamp is just a bonus so was wondering about it. OSX is what I am mostly interested in.

It Works awesome for me with lid open. It’s even better in clamshell but I’m too lazy to close the lid now... I got 1440p + Razer Core x with RVII.

For the 16" MacBook, or at least my setup, I needed to hack the bootloader. Turning on/off devices in Device Manager will not work. And no, drivers from bootcampdrivers.com won't work properly. 2019 drivers have poor support for Radeon 5700XT, which I have, and 2020 drivers won't work with Eyefinity at all, which is necessary for my multi-monitor setup.

Also, egpu.io is the place where the bootloader hack originated from.

I also have nVidia GeForce 1070, and yeah, it is easier, but the bootloader hack still disables dGPU.

This is from my own experience, not theoretical.

I'm using Radeon VII and it is my experience, it works great but I need to play the game with turning off/on devices on every windows shut down/power up. And I need to check if the correct pci.sys file is inside Windows folder. It is difficult to achieve, many conditions must be met like using only the lower left tb3 port for egpu...

 

[jimhoyle]

What a horrible computer this is (16" MacBook Pro 2019). Boot Camp, using Windows 10 (OSX is there just for testing).

Have you guys noticed what happens when you do Power Options / your power profile / Advanced settings / Processor power management / Maximum power state 99% instead of 100%? (No difference whether System cooling policy is Active or Passive.) My results for Real Temp GT / XS Bench, using an external monitor, lid open or closed, as follows:

• CPU max 100%: Score 1808 (time 8.091 secs, speed 4377.60 MHz), fans very loud all the time
• CPU max 99%: Score 1012 (time 14.463 secs, speed 2293.98 MHz), fans moderate or silent

In other words, if you're willing to halve your computer speed, the fans start behaving. Of course, it makes absolutely no sense buying this insanely expensive and flawed computer, then halving the speed. You can also use ThrottleStop (a program), instead of that Power Options max processor state setting, to Set Multiplier somewhere between 8–48. It seems to vary, but using 48 (~4200 MHz) will cause high fan noise and 26–38 results in 2600–3800 MHz but still possibly only moderateish fan noise. (Not sure what the optimal setting is between speed and noise.)

By the way, I have also these terrible problems:

• After resume from sleep, both WiFi and Bluetooth are broken. Have to reboot computer to get them back.
• Touchbar is horrible, always getting accidental presses. Had to create a complex AutoHotkey script to alleviate that problem.
• Terrible tingling effect when moving hand along the metal case when power supply is connected to the socket. Only after buying an accessory, a grounded cable extension, did that 50 Hz vibration effect stop.
• In Windows, there are no readings for CPU fan speed nor for GPU fan speed available. Drivers evidently don't support those readings! What a joke.

Does anyone know what's the best high-endish alternative to 16" MacBook Pro 2019, without this fan noise problem?

 

[thedocbwarren]

I have one and honestly this is a solid and powerful laptop/workstation. I use it for development and push it hard with VMs, etc. Yes it has the 20w external deal, it's a thing. I'll get an eGPU at some point, solved.

To said this is a terrible computer is pushing it (IMHO.) It's fast, has an i9 and a good GPU. these will compete for thermos. It's going to happen, it's a laptop, not a water-cooled desktop.

To be fair, looking at desktops in the 9th/10th gen, you need serious high-end cooling to get full performance. I have a desktop with an AMD card and overclocked i3 that reboots due to heat, end of the day Intel/AMD is super super SUPER hot and inefficient.

Hello, Apple Silicon, will be the save here.

What a horrible computer this is (16" MacBook Pro 2019). Boot Camp, using Windows 10 (OSX is there just for testing).

Have you guys noticed what happens when you do Power Options / your power profile / Advanced settings / Processor power management / Maximum power state 99% instead of 100%? (No difference whether System cooling policy is Active or Passive.) My results for Real Temp GT / XS Bench, using an external monitor, lid open or closed, as follows:

• CPU max 100%: Score 1808 (time 8.091 secs, speed 4377.60 MHz), fans very loud all the time
• CPU max 99%: Score 1012 (time 14.463 secs, speed 2293.98 MHz), fans moderate or silent

In other words, if you're willing to halve your computer speed, the fans start behaving. Of course, it makes absolutely no sense buying this insanely expensive and flawed computer, then halving the speed. You can also use ThrottleStop (a program), instead of that Power Options max processor state setting, to Set Multiplier somewhere between 8–48. It seems to vary, but using 48 (~4200 MHz) will cause high fan noise and 26–38 results in 2600–3800 MHz but still possibly only moderateish fan noise. (Not sure what the optimal setting is between speed and noise.)

By the way, I have also these terrible problems:

• After resume from sleep, both WiFi and Bluetooth are broken. Have to reboot computer to get them back.
• Touchbar is horrible, always getting accidental presses. Had to create a complex AutoHotkey script to alleviate that problem.
• Terrible tingling effect when moving hand along the metal case when power supply is connected to the socket. Only after buying an accessory, a grounded cable extension, did that 50 Hz vibration effect stop.
• In Windows, there are no readings for CPU fan speed nor for GPU fan speed available. Drivers evidently don't support those readings! What a joke.

Does anyone know what's the best high-endish alternative to 16" MacBook Pro 2019, without this fan noise problem?

 

[jamespb78]

• Terrible tingling effect when moving hand along the metal case when power supply is connected to the socket. Only after buying an accessory, a grounded cable extension, did that 50 Hz vibration effect stop.

I've had 3 16" MBP now, and they all had the tingling effect when power supply connected.

Like you, I solved it by connecting a grounded cable to the power brick.

 

[mrmachine79]

I'd never had a Mac prior to trying the 16 and returning due to the external monitor issue. One data point I haven't seen is what the power draw was on recent MBP 15s in the kind of external monitor/laptop open setups we are discussing here. Is this that much different than years past? Surely someone with a 15 and an external could pull up iStat and share. If it's not as bad, I feel more confident in waiting for the next 16 refresh.

It's not that different from past years. Every mbp with dGPU has been used to drive external displays and used more power and generated more heat. My 2019 15" 2.3 i9 used 15W instead of the 18W used by the 16" which has 12W better cooling. The 15" would often trigger 1000% kernel_task on basic GPU tasks (video conferencing) which would slow the CPU to 800mhz even though I was already barely using any CPU. The 16" is WAY better. It might be loud, and hot, and you might still get less CPU performance with dGPU enabled than if it were disabled, but it does NOT in my experience suffer from the same extreme performance problems that the 2019 15" did.

eGPU guys, a quick question!

I have a MBP with 3 external monitors (via a CalDigit dock) and love the setup, but the MBP gets hot. I want to buy and eGPU and position it far from the computer. What eGPU would you suggest if I want it to:
1) power 3 external monitors
2) have a longer cord
3) almost silent
4) moderately priced?

Razer core X (chroma if you want to connect an external disk via USB for backups) with a sapphire pulse rx 5500 xt. It's very quiet already at 2 feet but if you put it under the desk or swap the fans out it should be practically silent.

My understanding is that the 16" need to run the video memory clock at maximum speed to comply with requirements on video timing IF, you run two screens with DIFFERENT resolution or one screen with a "bad" combination of resolution and refresh rate. When the memory clock runs at maximum 5500 consumes 18W, 5600 consumes less due to more performant memory. So far I believe this explanation is consistent with the data presented in this thread.

What I hear is that both AMD and Apple has said (repeatedly) that this works as designed and there is nothing to fix.

"More of the same" arguments will hardly help against Apple. Is it possible to find a new angle. If the 16" performs as designed, why does the 15" consume less? Does it not comply to video timing requirements?

Your summary is exactly right. Hbm2 memory uses less power for more performance AND they run it at a lower frequency. The 15" had the same problem (same by design driver behaviour) but it was an older dGPU with slower frequency memory (lower power). It still had the same problem. Worse even (see above). Its Radeon power draw was 3W less but its overall TDP was 12W less. I ran identical tests with 2 identical monitors and cables at the same side by side. The 16" is much better.

 

[Kung gu]

It's not that different from past years. Every mbp with dGPU has been used to drive external displays and used more power and generated more heat. My 2019 15" 2.3 i9 used 15W instead of the 18W used by the 16" which has 12W better cooling. The 15" would often trigger 1000% kernel_task on basic GPU tasks (video conferencing) which would slow the CPU to 800mhz even though I was already barely using any CPU. The 16" is WAY better. It might be loud, and hot, and you might still get less CPU performance with dGPU enabled than if it were disabled, but it does NOT in my experience suffer from the same extreme performance problems that the 2019 15" did.


Razer core X (chroma if you want to connect an external disk via USB for backups) with a sapphire pulse rx 5500 xt. It's very quiet already at 2 feet but if you put it under the desk or swap the fans out it should be practically silent.


Your summary is exactly right. Hbm2 memory uses less power for more performance AND they run it at a lower frequency. The 15" had the same problem (same by design driver behaviour) but it was an older dGPU with slower frequency memory (lower power). It still had the same problem. Worse even (see above). Its Radeon power draw was 3W less but its overall TDP was 12W less. I ran identical tests with 2 identical monitors and cables at the same side by side. The 16" is much better.

In Bootcamp, I get 3Watts with an 1080p monitor with laptop lid open and resolution set at 2048 by 1280.
In macOS on the other hand I get 18Watts.
In the end its just bad drivers.

 

[Kogut]

In Bootcamp, I get 3Watts with an 1080p monitor with laptop lid open and resolution set at 2048 by 1280.
In macOS on the other hand I get 18Watts.
In the end its just bad drivers.

How do you check watts usage in bootcamp?

 

[mrmachine79]

In Bootcamp, I get 3Watts with an 1080p monitor with laptop lid open and resolution set at 2048 by 1280.
In macOS on the other hand I get 18Watts.
In the end its just bad drivers.

There's a lot more different than just the GPU driver when you compare boot camp to macos. It's a completely different operating system with a completely different graphics system. And macos uses 3d for a lot more of its interface elements.

It is a pointless comparison in determining the cause of the issue in macos and potential fix in macos. It is only a relevant comparison if you are deciding whether to run macos or windows.

 

[elv]

• Terrible tingling effect when moving hand along the metal case when power supply is connected to the socket. Only after buying an accessory, a grounded cable extension, did that 50 Hz vibration effect stop.

Oh it is not specific to the 16". I believe every laptop with a metal enclosure does this unless it is grounded. I've had several MBP since 2008 and they all had that tingling effect.

 

[Norbert Mikołajczyk]

There's a lot more different than just the GPU driver when you compare boot camp to macos. It's a completely different operating system with a completely different graphics system. And macos uses 3d for a lot more of its interface elements.

It is a pointless comparison in determining the cause of the issue in macos and potential fix in macos. It is only a relevant comparison if you are deciding whether to run macos or windows.

I think all that tell us is that macOS is crappy and not well optimized in terms of gpu usage, performance and drivers. Only the cpu performance is on par with windows and it has lower gpu usage. Windows 10 UI is as fluid as macOS, so why macOS draws such a huge amount of power from our amd chips While idle is a mistery for me. Gaming on macOS ? Forget it! Working with 3D? Forget it too. I’m deep in macOS ecosystem so it’s hard for me to switch to windows entirely, I love macOS UI more than windows but windows seems to be better optimized overall for performance. I wonder what the arm Macs will bring to the game though...

 

[donperi]

I'm using my Dell laptop (XPS 9570),as the new version of Windows has a good unix development environment.
And I have to say that I'm really disappointed with the MBP 16"

This laptop with the external monitor and lid open is CRAZY cold.
CPU/GPU temps are 45c on actual use with Slack, PHPStorm, Browser, Terminal, Webpack

I know that the whole hardware implementation is different and the Intel GPU is being used and dGPU only used when required.

Is a shame that Apple can't deliver a similar experience taking how expensive is the MBP.

 

[Grohowiak]

Quick question.
Anybody here uses RX580 with eGPU?
External 2K and lid open is my current scenario.
I can get the card for $70 which combined with the $80 I paid for a Core X would make a rather cheap setup.
Basically Xcode and Adobe with occasional Unity.

 

[Vinamra07]

Hey, I have a 16" macbook base model. When exporting a video in premiere pro my raedon high side was at 55 watts. Is that normal? Can anyone please confirm?

 

[petterihiisila]

Quick question.
Anybody here uses RX580 with eGPU?
External 2K and lid open is my current scenario.
I can get the card for $70 which combined with the $80 I paid for a Core X would make a rather cheap setup.
Basically Xcode and Adobe with occasional Unity.

That should make the dGPU stay offline, and even apps shown inside the internal display would get a boost from the eGPU, if you set individual apps to do their graphics-related computation in the eGPU. Right click > Get Info, after you have the 580. Being so, Radeon High Side consumption should no longer correlate with the external display.

I’ve got the very same bundle being shipped, unfortunately at list price minus peanuts, because it’s new. The plan is to connect a 5k LG to the dGPU (5 W, cool’n’smooth in clamshell, personally verified) and more monitors to the eGPU.

It’s not here yet, so can’t report the full results for sure, but all I’ve heard is that it would work. If I were you, I’d take that offer. Someone will re-buy it in an instant for that price, if you’re not happy with it for whatever reason.

 

[mrmachine79]

Quick question.
Anybody here uses RX580 with eGPU?
External 2K and lid open is my current scenario.
I can get the card for $70 which combined with the $80 I paid for a Core X would make a rather cheap setup.
Basically Xcode and Adobe with occasional Unity.

My iMac has a 580 GPU. My old 15" MBP had a 560 dGPU. Both are perfectly capable of driving internal and 4k scaled external displays. If you only want to avoid the dgpu power draw and heat/fan noise issue, this sounds like a great cheap option. Unless you actually need a fast GPU for graphics work, the 580 should be more than enough to drive an external display.

I wouldn't bother configuring any apps to actually use the eGPU for rendering. You can still just use the dgpu which will be faster even to render apps and the eGPU purely to drive the display and avoid the timing and high dGPU power issue. It will behave as with the internal display only. Some apps or GPU helper processes will still naturally go to the eGPU but just let macos manage that.

 

[c0ppo]

I'm not using MBP anymore as my daily device, but from time to time I have to use it to compile my stuff for macs.
Is there any way to connect LG 5K display to eGPU? I have Razor eGPU with 5700XT. I want to connect it to LG 5K and my mac.

 

[onerovico]

The DisplayLink solution with, i.e. the Dell D6000, sounds like a good solution to connect external displays without requiring an eGPU and not suffering from the 19W Radeon GPU issue.

 

[lookash]

The DisplayLink solution with, i.e. the Dell D6000, sounds like a good solution to connect external displays without requiring an eGPU and not suffering from the 19W Radeon GPU issue.

But only for one monitor. MacOS doesn't support MST mode in USB-C, so connecting several monitors to such a hub will result in the same image on each (mirroring mode).