(2019) 16" is HOT & NOISY with an external monitor! :(

[PhilippVH]

Connections:

• 1 port: TB3 (USB-C) to TB2 adapter --> TB2 to ethernet adapter (seriously, Apple. Double dongles for RJ45?)

…
Phew, that turned out to be way more text than anticipated lol.

This actually reads very similar with my 5500 and a LG 5k display; Radeon high side is a bit higher (but resolution is as well).
The real different to 5600 should show, when you "leave the clamshell" mode; at which point your system supposedly should not jumpt to 18+W Radeon usage. (As does mine…)

For the Ethernet connection: I use a USB-C (USB3) Ethernet connector; it's fast enough for Gigabit Ethernet. (No need to involve Thunderbolt here. Though even the USB-adaptor gets warm and uses seemingly some energy.)
There's USB-/TB3 based adapters for higher speed (USB: up to 5GBps, TB3 up to 10 Gbps) if you need to. (So those get more bulky and use more energy - so use them only, when you have respective switches and benefits from the speeds.)

 

[PhilippVH]

"More of the same" arguments will hardly help against Apple. Is it possible to find a new angle. If the 16" performs as designed, why does the 15" consume less? Does it not comply to video timing requirements?

Since they don't publish such detailed technical data sheets, and don't promise technical things on their web pages, it may be difficult to nail this down. All the things they write, are true. (If seemingly incomplete...)
The point one can make, is that they advertise the 16" as "best ever" (as usual); including better graphics performance (true) and cooling system (true). However, they don't state, that in certain scenarios, the 16" behaves "worse" then the 15" (see measurements above).
This also negates some of the improvements of the colling system for many external display scenarios ("yeah, my system can cool 10 Watts more than 15" - oh wait, in a typical CPU centric use case with external screen the system also produces 10 Watts more (without benefit)… so no real gain")

No clue, if you can make this legally proof for a claim; damn sure, it's bad product design and bad "bahvior" to hide behind the fact, that they publish comparatively little techncial information on their products.

Best argument would have been, if press would point this issue out (as a specific product regression within the 15"/16" line) and people refuse buying it. Then Apple would do something, pretty likely. (But that's too late for this product, I guess. If they update it before ARM… who knows. 10th gen Intel would not make it worthwhile (only burning even more Watts for minimal gains) - unless they get better GPU or access to 11th gen TigerLake processors - which are not expected befor spring 2021 for the H (45 Watts TDP) class.)
Let's see…

 

[matram]

Since they don't publish such detailed technical data sheets, and don't promise technical things on their web pages, it may be difficult to nail this down. All the things they write, are true. (If seemingly incomplete...)

Yes, I have the same picture. My impression was that there was a bit deeper technical discussion on the AMD forum as to the reasons for the thermals.

The point one can make, is that they advertise the 16" as "best ever" (as usual); including better graphics performance (true) and cooling system (true). However, they don't state, that in certain scenarios, the 16" behaves "worse" then the 15" (see measurements above).

I have worked for a number of years a senior consultant to companies developing embedded SW.

I think you have to separate between technical requirements (what the R&D team develop against) from market positioning ("Best Ever"). Even if Apple intends the system to be best ever it may not be possible to at the same time be better on every single requirements with current component. This is always a balance. Not everyone will agree on the balance.

If the product passes verification and is in compliance with specification, there is no defect.

You can argue that although the product meets specification it does not meet customer needs. We normally refer to this process as validation. Generally this will feed back to the requirement specification for the NEXT generation

No clue, if you can make this legally proof for a claim; damn sure, it's bad product design and bad "bahvior" to hide behind the fact, that they publish comparatively little techncial information on their products.

I am no expert on the law. In the discussions I have been involved in you are NOT liable if you can show that your product follows industrial best practice and complies with laws and regulations. I think it would be difficult to legally prove "malpractice" in this case. Note that the discussions I have been involved in, the consequences of a failure was death, so our frames of reference differ.

Best argument would have been, if press would point this issue out (as a specific product regression within the 15"/16" line) and people refuse buying it. Then Apple would do something, pretty likely. (But that's too late for this product, I guess. If they update it before ARM… who knows.

Voting with you wallet is always a good strategy I think. But in this has case I think they have their focus on new ARM system and will not invest more in existing Intel MBP.

 

[RASVO]

I just left it on idle a bit longer while installing a printer in another room and came back to temperatures of 40°C with one core even showing 39°C! Of course as soon as you open the iStat menu it jumps up but good results anyway! Now 42-45°C while typing this (clamshell).

Wow! Thx for your very detailed response. Seems like everything is fine with your configuration. I have the base model (5300m) and I'm seriously considering this monitor. I guess I have to try and find out whether this monitor also works nice and quietly with the 5300m. Do you have those wake up issues when the MBP is in sleep mode and the monitor stays dark and doesn't respond? The web is full of this issue.

Welcome! As PhilippVH has said above it should indeed work fine in clamshell for your model as well since that mostly gave positive results judging from this thread.

About the wake up issues: So far I have experienced none. The screen always wakes up with a press on the bluetooth keyboard (Apple). Of course it can take a few seconds for the screen to power on but it always does for me.

The monitor was bought from Amazon last week, however it showed a manufacture date of July 2019. So not the newest but also not the early production model. As far as I can tell there is no firmware update for it available.

This actually reads very similar with my 5500 and a LG 5k display; Radeon high side is a bit higher (but resolution is as well).
The real different to 5600 should show, when you "leave the clamshell" mode; at which point your system supposedly should not jumpt to 18+W Radeon usage. (As does mine…)

For the Ethernet connection: I use a USB-C (USB3) Ethernet connector; it's fast enough for Gigabit Ethernet. (No need to involve Thunderbolt here. Though even the USB-adaptor gets warm and uses seemingly some energy.)
There's USB-/TB3 based adapters for higher speed (USB: up to 5GBps, TB3 up to 10 Gbps) if you need to. (So those get more bulky and use more energy - so use them only, when you have respective switches and benefits from the speeds.)

That's right I forgot the problem was mostly with non-clamshell mode. I will try this soon and report back.
What resolution are you running?

Indeed I've seen some of the USB-C to ethernet adapters but I already had the TB2 to ethernet and the extra dongle worked out a bit cheaper. The TB connector does not get warm at all though. That's the main difference between the two I would guess.

Still, Apple should really have a TB3 to ethernet..

 

[JappieRocks]

I think all work-arounds are unacceptable. I'm doing lot's of presentations on an external monitor/beamer and the fans make so much noise I can't do the presentation. And asking a customer or someone else to use his laptop. Not even mentioning you'll have to present fast as your battery will drain pretty quick as well.

 

[RASVO]

Ok, using my previous post (clamshell) as a template with some extra's left out. This time Lid open.
The laptop is just sitting flat on the desk so no extra cooling as with a stand.

Some info:

• MBP 16" 2,3GHz i9, 32GB RAM, 5600M graphics.
• Lid open mode
• LG 34WK95U on a desk-mounted arm. Using the provided TB3 cable by LG.
• Resolution: 3360x1417 HiDPI(full 5k2k resolution is tiny! Very sharp looking though, but so is this)
  • Mac standard scaled resolution in the Display settings pane, one to the right (more space)
• Wallpaper resolution: 3440 x 1440
• Connections:
  • 1 port: TB3 cable for display/charging
  • 1 port: TB3 (USB-C) to TB2 adapter --> TB2 to ethernet adapter (seriously, Apple. Double dongles for RJ45?)
  • Both connected on the same side.

Temps/Power after a few minutes idle:

• CPU:
  • 47°C proximity with cores dipping to around 48°C
  • For reference:
    • Idle without external monitor I've noticed so far is around 40°C
    • Idle clamshell with external monitor was cores lowest also 40°C with the proximity the same 48ish °C.
• GPU:
  • Radeon High Side 7.95W
  • 5600M: 56°C, proximity 46-49°C
  • Intel UHD 630: 47°C
• Thunderbolt Port:
  • 60 - 65°C
  • Same as clamshell
• Fans:
  • Around 1770 RPM average all the time, quiet, unnoticeable.
  • Left side higher by about 100RPM because TB3 ports connected on that side I assume.
  • Same as clamshell

Note: This is Idle after a few minutes. Safari open with one tab (website), Messages open, Mail and Activity monitor open in the background. Also, I do have airconditioning in this room.

General/Performance

Everything feels quick and responsive. Same as with clamshell.

Typing this while playing a youtube video in the background tab for music (safari) cores are 54-58°C and Radeon high side continues to go back down to 7.95 with some short spikes with usage mostly keeping below 10W.

Conclusion: It definitely does not heat up significantly just by using an external display with lid open.

Attached: iStat sensor data just before opening this website with the apps open as mentioned above.

 

[Norbert Mikołajczyk]

I think all work-arounds are unacceptable. I'm doing lot's of presentations on an external monitor/beamer and the fans make so much noise I can't do the presentation. And asking a customer or someone else to use his laptop. Not even mentioning you'll have to present fast as your battery will drain pretty quick as well.

Yep, you need totally different machine then. It's a mobile pro workstation only as I see it, sadly.

 

[Norbert Mikołajczyk]

Ok, using my previous post (clamshell) as a template with some extra's left out. This time Lid open.
The laptop is just sitting flat on the desk so no extra cooling as with a stand.

Some info:

• MBP 16" 2,3GHz i9, 32GB RAM, 5600M graphics.
• Lid open mode
• LG 34WK95U on a desk-mounted arm. Using the provided TB3 cable by LG.
• Resolution: 3360x1417 HiDPI(full 5k2k resolution is tiny! Very sharp looking though, but so is this)
  • Mac standard scaled resolution in the Display settings pane, one to the right (more space)
• Wallpaper resolution: 3440 x 1440
• Connections:
  • 1 port: TB3 cable for display/charging
  • 1 port: TB3 (USB-C) to TB2 adapter --> TB2 to ethernet adapter (seriously, Apple. Double dongles for RJ45?)
  • Both connected on the same side.

Temps/Power after a few minutes idle:

• CPU:
  • 47°C proximity with cores dipping to around 48°C
  • For reference:
    • Idle without external monitor I've noticed so far is around 40°C
    • Idle clamshell with external monitor was cores lowest also 40°C with the proximity the same 48ish °C.
• GPU:
  • Radeon High Side 7.95W
  • 5600M: 56°C, proximity 46-49°C
  • Intel UHD 630: 47°C
• Thunderbolt Port:
  • 60 - 65°C
  • Same as clamshell
• Fans:
  • Around 1770 RPM average all the time, quiet, unnoticeable.
  • Left side higher by about 100RPM because TB3 ports connected on that side I assume.
  • Same as clamshell

Note: This is Idle after a few minutes. Safari open with one tab (website), Messages open, Mail and Activity monitor open in the background. Also, I do have airconditioning in this room.

General/Performance

Everything feels quick and responsive. Same as with clamshell.

Typing this while playing a youtube video in the background tab for music (safari) cores are 54-58°C and Radeon high side continues to go back down to 7.95 with some short spikes with usage mostly keeping below 10W.

Conclusion: It definitely does not heat up significantly just by using an external display with lid open.

Attached: iStat sensor data just before opening this website with the apps open as mentioned above.

View attachment 945838

My 5500 is not that far away in clamshell mode than your 5600

 

[richinaus]

Yep, you need totally different machine then. It's a mobile pro workstation as I see it, sadly.

I agree they do need another machine.

Really somebody should be able to make a presentation without all the fans blasting - what a joke.
I tend to believe it is a combination of bad drivers, poor cooling solution and the fact that Apples focus is on the new silicon machines and not the intel machines with Dgpu.

 

[lookash]

Do you have those wake up issues when the MBP is in sleep mode and the monitor stays dark and doesn't respond? The web is full of this issue.

Yes. I had it. But in my case update to 10.15.6 fixed this issue.

 

[MCKLMT]

I plan to buy a 16" but this long thread is a little disappointing. One question.
Is the 16" quiet without any monitor plugged?

 

[lookash]

Is the 16" quiet without any monitor plugged?

Yes, it is. Of course, until you start doing something demanding or start a game etc.

 

[MrGimper]

I plan to buy a 16" but this long thread is a little disappointing. One question.
Is the 16" quiet without any monitor plugged?

My refurb 2.3/64/2TB/8GB runs awesome, I've never even tried plugging in an external monitor.

 

[Corncab44]

One thing that isn't talked about much in this thread is how high wattage pull can go on the 5300m and 5500m -- not just idle. Idle doesn't exactly replicate real world use, but at the same time use that could easily be supported by internal graphics.

Anecdotally I saw that the 5500m would spike into the high 30 watts when have two videos open on an external with the screen open. It definitely is a worse option than the 5300m if all you care about is coolness. But neither are good.

 

[albertoabruzzo]

I've just tried booting in Safe Mode while connected to and external monitor with lid open aaaand Radeon is pulling 10w (see the attachments).

I'm star thinking that it's really a driver problem and not hardware related one!

Anyway to "temporarily" fix the problem i've just buyed a DisplayLink dongle to connect my displayport monitor, hope that works, i'll let you know when it will be delivered.

My Macbook Pro 16: i7 2.6ghz, 32gb ram and Radeon 5300M

 

[Norbert Mikołajczyk]

I've just tried booting in Safe Mode while connected to and external monitor with lid open aaaand Radeon is pulling 10w (see the attachments).

I'm star thinking that it's really a driver problem and not hardware related one!

Anyway to "temporarily" fix the problem i've just buyed a DisplayLink dongle to connect my displayport monitor, hope that works, i'll let you know when it will be delivered.

My Macbook Pro 16: i7 2.6ghz, 32gb ram and Radeon 5300M

Whoa! Awesome finding, congrats 🍾 all that and boot camp indicate that’s the driver issue. Thanks 🙏 but I don’t have high expectations for a fix because Apple Is refreshing GPUs drivers once a year And does not fix old drivers issues often....

 

[lookash]

Anyway to "temporarily" fix the problem i've just buyed a DisplayLink dongle to connect my displayport monitor, hope that works, i'll let you know when it will be delivered.

I connected my external monitors via USB-C hub, Thunderbolt Hubs or USB-C to DP/HDMI cable. There is no difference.

 

[lookash]

Whoa! Awesome finding, congrats 🍾 all that and boot camp indicate that’s the driver issue. Thanks 🙏 but I don’t have high expectations for a fix because Apple Is refreshing GPUs drivers once a year And does not fix old drivers issues often....

I tested this Safe Mode scenario with Apple Engineer. They know about this and make nothing to fix this issue.

 

[albertoabruzzo]

Whoa! Awesome finding, congrats 🍾 all that and boot camp indicate that’s the driver issue. Thanks 🙏 but I don’t have high expectations for a fix because Apple Is refreshing GPUs drivers once a year And does not fix old drivers issues often....

I’m really confused, don’t know if:
- get a Macbook Pro 13” with i5 10th gen and 32gb of ram to avoid this fan issue and overheating
- wait for 16 refresh and buy the new one

I work 95% of the time with external monitor and lid open. 16“ is great screen and performance but 13 is great for portability and doesn’t have this issue, don’t really mind the screen and performance are still good, i don’t need that much because i’m a developer

What do you think?

 

[jamespb78]

I plan to buy a 16" but this long thread is a little disappointing. One question.
Is the 16" quiet without any monitor plugged?

Obviously depends what your doing, but I'm pleasantly surprised by mine after the reports I'd read here.

Ive got the Core i9 2.4, with 5600M. No external monitor.

For basic tasks such as Safari, Lightroom, working on the timeline in Final Cut Pro, copying files etc - the fans are at minimum. Approx 1800 RPM on one side, approx 1700 RPM on the other side. I cannot really hear the fans at all when they are at this speed. Pretty much silent.

I've tested putting the fans into manual mode, and it's not until between 3000-3500 RPM that I would consider the fans loud - and even then, compared to other Core i7 laptops I have, the fans in the 16" MBP are quieter.

The loudest my fans have been are up around 5000 RPM, and that was running benchmark tests. As soon as the test was over, the fans returned to approx 1800/1700 RPM.

Interestingly, I set up a 13" HP 360 Spectre (I think that was the model) Core i7 laptop a few months back. The fan in that thing roared even when just idle in Windows 10!

 

[Norbert Mikołajczyk]

I’m really confused, don’t know if:
- get a Macbook Pro 13” with i5 10th gen and 32gb of ram to avoid this fan issue and overheating
- wait for 16 refresh and buy the new one

I work 95% of the time with external monitor and lid open. 16“ is great screen and performance but 13 is great for portability and doesn’t have this issue, don’t really mind the screen and performance are still good, i don’t need that much because i’m a developer

What do you think?

It's hard to say really it's very personal. If the maxed out MBP 13 will be enough for your professional needs and you won't loose too much, and you mostly work with the external display, then yeah it's probably better to buy the 13.
I believe your work is very cpu intensive so you will need as much cpu boost as possible for as long as possible.
With the dGPU and external display the situation for today is that you will get throttling and it could hurt you work badly.
It will be loud and hot working on it while waiting for the fix from Apple. Maybe the fix is on the way but maybe it isn't...

Since I discovered that my mbp16 gets loud and hot I tried different things.
Initially the fix for me was changing the cable and ditching my old ACD 23. I went with belkin HDMI cable and lg 1440p display. The temps were better overall and in clamshell mode I achieved better W usage.
But still while working it was too loud and too hot sometimes but it was much better then the other guys here, please see my earlier posts about temps.

I mostly work with gpu dependent pro apps so while working remotely I needed rather fast dGPU so the choice was easier for me. The second solution that worked for me the best so far was using my RVII from my dead cMP as eGPU.
This setup simply rocks, no overheating, no throttling and it's quiet.

You could always go with the MPB16 with 5600 or eGPU if you have amd gpu laying around

So yeah, overall maybe the MBP 13 is a better choice for you, but it depends how you work.
Please check the MBP13 cpu performance and search for any other issues here on the forum.
If you can wait, then maybe it's a good idea to see what will happen with the MBP16.
I hope that helps.

 

[Grohowiak]

I got a pretty amazing offer for a Razer eGpu for under $80 (working fine) but would have to get a GPU to go with it.
By looking at specs I guess the 590 or 5700 would do.
My only issue if this is another investment that I have no idea how will work when ARM arrives.
Would I be dumping even more into the garbage pit?

Anybody has radeon EGPU and can share how it works with bootcamp?

 

[Grammar1]

I've just tried booting in Safe Mode while connected to and external monitor with lid open aaaand Radeon is pulling 10w (see the attachments).

I'm star thinking that it's really a driver problem and not hardware related one!

Anyway to "temporarily" fix the problem i've just buyed a DisplayLink dongle to connect my displayport monitor, hope that works, i'll let you know when it will be delivered.

My Macbook Pro 16: i7 2.6ghz, 32gb ram and Radeon 5300M

What resolution is the screen at?

It draws much less at 1080p than 4k

 

[bill-p]

Anybody has radeon EGPU and can share how it works with bootcamp?

eGPU error 12 fail after update to Windows 10 1903 or newer ...

Hi all, I have a Mac mini 2018 i7 with a thunderbolt eGPU amd vega 64. After my windows update, the egpu is showed in Device Manager with the yello...

egpu.io

Still not solved officially by Microsoft. There are workarounds, but it involves basically hacking the firmware.

So if you plan no using Bootcamp at all, go for 5600M.

 

[petterihiisila]

I got a pretty amazing offer for a Razer eGpu for under $80 (working fine) but would have to get a GPU to go with it.
By looking at specs I guess the 590 or 5700 would do.
My only issue if this is another investment that I have no idea how will work when ARM arrives.
Would I be dumping even more into the garbage pit?

Anybody has radeon EGPU and can share how it works with bootcamp?

If you do a Google search for "boot camp egpu", you'll find a mile-long guide for working around various quirks. Some configurations work well, others don't. If it's a laptop with dGPU, it's the most prone to issues. So not promising with the 16", but not a dead end either. Apple doesn't officially support eGPU in Boot Camp, it'll need 3rd party drivers and potentially some dirty hacks to work.

I bit the bullet today and sent out an order for Razer X Core Chroma + Radeon 580. I'll connect two QHD monitors into that. Should be enough oomph to run those in desktop use, no games. I can try them with eGPU + Boot Camp within the next two weeks.

If I connect the QHDs via a dock to the Mac, they insta-pull 20 watts, even if only one of them is connected. However, the LG 5k TB3 in clamshell mode only consumes only about 5 watts (5500M) and everything runs butter smooth and silent at around 50 °C - as long as the two QHD monitors are disconnected. The 5k solo clamshell configuration is very enjoyable to use.

So, the plan is to keep the 5k connected to the Mac directly, and the two QHDs via eGPU. I expect that 5500M will still consume 5 watts and everything is cool. We'll see. Plan B: 30-day return policy.

As for Apple Silicon and eGPUs: it's all up in the air. They may or may not work. Apple hasn't said yes or no directly. Throwing more money into the current Intel machines has to be done with some resale depreciation in mind.

There will be people who want a 2nd hand 2019 16" MBP in 2-4 years, and the eGPU may have to become an add-on that's sold with it. It will then stand out as the cool-running 16" variant, and that should be a nice bonus for more than a few prospective buyers. Because other than this one nagging issue, it's a fantastic laptop IMHO.