(2019) 16" is HOT & NOISY with an external monitor! :(

[decipherkl]

I finally got switchresx to work on my system. For my particular monitor, a Dell U2719dc, which is connected via an Apple thunderbolt 3 cable, I have to overclock the monitor for it to work, underclocking doesn't work. A sweet spot is 72-73Hz for 1440p resolution. Supposedly the monitor can handle 75Hz but some characters get a little blurry. At this refresh rate (72-73Hz) Radeon high side shows around 5W and temperature is around 49C and fan at 1830rpm. Of course this is in clamshell mode. I also turned off turbo boost.

 

[lǝʍɐd]

Latest beta, still no fix.

 

[Celtic78]

fix.

Which 'fix' you are referring to? Has Apple promised to fix this (source?), or are you just hoping and waiting that this will be fixed someday, somehow?

 

[Quu]

Apple has not even acknowledged that this is an issue so I wouldn't expect a fix at all.

 

[Celtic78]

Apple has not even acknowledged that this is an issue so I wouldn't expect a fix at all.

My point exactly!

So, let's stick with the workarounds.

However, it's funny to fix a brand new $4K laptop with a duct tape and kludges. This TG Pro by Tunabelly Software was the most promising so far, until kernel_task kicked off and stole the show

 

[SSD-GUY]

Hi all. I currently have a MacBook Pro 15" 2018 from work that I wish to upgrade (has a few minor problems like poor battery life etc) but can live with these for now. I'm not upgrading anytime soon (as waiting on what Apple does with the 14" 'rumoured' MBP first), however, is it worth getting the current 16", or should I wait till the end of the year for 16" refresh that has supposed mini/micro LED, and more importantly for me, the fix for the below use-case?

The reason I ask about the current 16" is that at work, I connect my 15" to 2x Thunderbolt displays via an Apple TB2/TB3 adapter. Furthermore, whilst working from home, I've been connecting my 15" to 2x LG 4K (LG27UD88) displays via USB-C Belkin cables, and have had no issues both at work with the Thunderbolt displays, nor at home with the 4k displays. I've read however, that the 16" has a problem with connecting to external displays and has high power draw.

Therefore as I'm a BIG user of connecting external monitors, should I wait for the 16" refresh/wait for this issue to be fixed before upgrading? The 15" can last me till the end of the year, I can live with it's minor faults.

 

[Abaganov]

If this is indeed a software bug how the hell Apple is not fixing this asap?

 

[PeterJP]

The reason I ask about the current 16" is that at work, I connect my 15" to 2x Thunderbolt displays via an Apple TB2/TB3 adapter. Furthermore, whilst working from home, I've been connecting my 15" to 2x LG 4K (LG27UD88) displays via USB-C Belkin cables, and have had no issues both at work with the Thunderbolt displays, nor at home with the 4k displays. I've read however, that the 16" has a problem with connecting to external displays and has high power draw.

I'm in the same boat, but using 1 external screen. The problem is that instead of 5-10W, the dGPU will use 20W when using internal+external screen. In clamshell, people manage to reduce it back down to 5-10W.

The 5500M Pro is, however, an 85W TDP GPU. So it's not extreme overheating, just using too much power. When you start doing more CPU intensive stuff, the combined heat will kick the fans into action quicker. For many people, they feel it's too quick (but after reading several Windows laptops reviews, they frequently do that, too). I'm a bit worried, but not very. I have 1 power user doing video editing on an all-maxed out (except it "only" has 4TB) 16" without complaints. He loves the machine.

Can it be fixed? The conclusion from the mega-thread seems to be that it's an issue that appeared with a driver update. So it would be AMD who would have to fix it, though Apple could apply pressure. It's most likely software and hasn't been fixed for over a year.

The only one who can come to conclusions is you. My conclusion? My 6 year old 13" is showing its limitations and I am waiting for a good refurb 16" to come up. Selection is limited here in Belgium, but there's plenty of movement on the refurb shop at the moment.

 

[SSD-GUY]

I'm in the same boat, but using 1 external screen. The problem is that instead of 5-10W, the dGPU will use 20W when using internal+external screen. In clamshell, people manage to reduce it back down to 5-10W.

The 5500M Pro is, however, an 85W TDP GPU. So it's not extreme overheating, just using too much power. When you start doing more CPU intensive stuff, the combined heat will kick the fans into action quicker. For many people, they feel it's too quick (but after reading several Windows laptops reviews, they frequently do that, too). I'm a bit worried, but not very. I have 1 power user doing video editing on an all-maxed out (except it "only" has 4TB) 16" without complaints. He loves the machine.

Can it be fixed? The conclusion from the mega-thread seems to be that it's an issue that appeared with a driver update. So it would be AMD who would have to fix it, though Apple could apply pressure. It's most likely software and hasn't been fixed for over a year.

The only one who can come to conclusions is you. My conclusion? My 6 year old 13" is showing its limitations and I am waiting for a good refurb 16" to come up. Selection is limited here in Belgium, but there's plenty of movement on the refurb shop at the moment.

Thank you. When connected to monitors at home (and work eventually when the lockdown is over), I always use in Clamshell as don't have space (plus don't work well on 3 monitors), so in that regard, would this issue not effect me?

I'm currently holding out for the 14" rumoured MBP, as my hope is that there's not much of a difference in screen size between the 15" and 14".

 

[PeterJP]

Thank you. When connected to monitors at home (and work eventually when the lockdown is over), I always use in Clamshell as don't have space (plus don't work well on 3 monitors), so in that regard, would this issue not effect me?

I'm currently holding out for the 14" rumoured MBP, as my hope is that there's not much of a difference in screen size between the 15" and 14".

The 15" is 15.4" whereas the 14" will be 14.1" at most. So it's about 3.5cm difference. It's less than the difference between 13.3" and 15.4", but that's all you can say about it.

As for the clamshell mode: most people report 20W power usage for clamshell as well, unless they use a utility (SwitchResX) to change the frequency of the monitor. It then drops down to 5W or just above. It's an easy thing to do so if you're going clamshell, I'd definitely do it that way. Check the rest of this thread for details about specific monitors and setups, or try a couple of settings until it works for you. And report here! More info = more knowledge about the problem.

 

[SSD-GUY]

The 15" is 15.4" whereas the 14" will be 14.1" at most. So it's about 3.5cm difference. It's less than the difference between 13.3" and 15.4", but that's all you can say about it.

As for the clamshell mode: most people report 20W power usage for clamshell as well, unless they use a utility (SwitchResX) to change the frequency of the monitor. It then drops down to 5W or just above. It's an easy thing to do so if you're going clamshell, I'd definitely do it that way. Check the rest of this thread for details about specific monitors and setups, or try a couple of settings until it works for you. And report here! More info = more knowledge about the problem.

Thanks. If it still requires some tinkering even in Clamshell then I think I'm gonna hold out till the refresh at the end of the year. I can't justify work spending so much on a device which has faults, and therefore may drive my productivity down due to issues.

 

[PeterJP]

Thanks. If it still requires some tinkering even in Clamshell then I think I'm gonna hold out till the refresh at the end of the year. I can't justify work spending so much on a device which has faults, and therefore may drive my productivity down due to issues.

I don't expect it to be too much work. Anyway, I ordered a 16" refurb myself just now. So I'll test & report, good boy that I am

 

[wegster]

I tried it myself with the screen open and saw no noticeable change with lid open + external monitor.

So just to confirm, this is only for clamshell mode? There's no difference otherwise?

Thanks, exactly what I had done, saw no difference(open lid plus lg 38uwQHD+ but SwtchResX was inducing an odd 'black flash' occasionally when clicking to change window focus, which I'd never seen before w/SwitchResX. Used to manually create mode lines for Linux/X from scratch way back so not an expert but it wasn't acting like a sync or out of range type issue, just weird and no benefit. Hadn't run SwtchResX in a bit, but had forgotten about all of the non resolution features I Ike home/work separatesettings and others which made me want to start using it again, but the combo of no change in power consumption + odd black blink behavior and gave up on it...

Has anyone taken the current Dev build/any difference?
[automerge]1588314577[/automerge]

I wonder whether it's got something to do with the GFX memory maxing out. I'm seeing a correlation between the graphics memory maxing out in iStat with the fans spinning up. Anyone else seeing the same?

Super annoying issue given that my old 13" MBP Early 2016 was able to handle a 4k screen with its integrated graphics card with no problems at all.

Seeing it with not maxxed 5500 8GB even of clean boot, 3860x1600 res + lid open.

 

[Caldzera]

Ok, what is wrong with these 16" MBPs. I am using an external monitor as additional working space since I have to work with different programs and documents at the same time, so clamshell isn't an option to me. In general, these workloads consist of Word + PDF Expert + Adobe Acrobat Pro and maybe a Browser. So nothing really "demanding". I am connecting my MBP to my my Dell 2716DG with an HDMI Cable + Atra Multiport-Hub, monitor set to 1440p @ 60Hz. Yesterday, after just like 10 minutes of work, the MBP skyrocketed to 70°, dGPU at like 18W. Working and concentrating became almost impossible with the spinning fans. So in the evening i just diconnected the Atra Hub, left all the programs open and closed the MBP.

I started working today 1.5 hours ago. I just opened the MBP, connected the Hub and the HDMI and started working as usual. 1.5 hours have passed, my MBP is still sittting at 62°, fans at just like 1600-1800 rpm, dGPU is at 19.2W. How is this even possible...

However, I found the following: Opening the "Monitors" system-preference yesterday, I was able to switch the resolution and refresh rate of my monitor. These options aren't there today

Edit: I don't know if it is of interest, but I attached the stats from iStatMenus.

 

[throAU]

I'm in the same boat, but using 1 external screen. The problem is that instead of 5-10W, the dGPU will use 20W when using internal+external screen. In clamshell, people manage to reduce it back down to 5-10W.

The funny thing about this right here is that I have a desktop with a Vega 64 card in it.

Driving a 4k display at the desktop its generally using around 3-6 watts.

This is a 300 watt desktop GPU...

 

[slicktromboner]

At this point, we should all open tickets with Apple and mercilessly work their tier 2 support. If we get anything productive done during this lockdown, it's to keep our damn dGPUs from hogging 20 watts of power while driving a freaking 1080p display attached to our $3000 computers.

 

[themcfly]

Everything will come back at them eventually. During lockdown 16" MacBooks are literally staying connected always at 100% charge, with batteries at 36-37C° even with clamshell, which is the most uncomfortable a battery can get and probably the fastest way to ruin them. And with the latest Catalina update they even ****ed up something so that the MacBook cannot even go to sleep or it kernel panics when waking up, so now I disabled sleep and it stays at that temperature 24/7.

In a bit they're gonna get so many swollen battery back at the Genius Bar... I had 2 MacBooks have the same problem in the past and they ran much cooler than these. Fortunately in Europe we have 2 years of warranty and I managed to get them swapped for free both times. I'm not even mad anymore, just disappointed. In one year you're gonna replace my battery and I won't pay a dime for it, **** you Apple.

 

[Appledoesnotlisten]

should I wait for the 16" refresh/wait for this issue to be fixed before upgrading?

Wait.
Summer temperatures are approaching and overheating complains will go through the roof pretty soon.

 

[bill-p]

For the record, again, I did not have to do anything in clamshell. The GPU is running at 5W with my Thunderbolt 3 and USB-C display.

Even when I daisy chain them, it's still 5W.

I tried Apple's USB-C to HDMI adapter to see if an adapter would cause 20W, but... it didn't. Still 5W.

So if you are seeing 18-20W, chances are... it's your dock. Try a native USB-C or Thunderbolt 3 display? Or alternatively, get an Apple-branded USB-C adapter.

 

[happyhippo1337]

If I connect my 16'' to a 2717D (2560x1440 @ 60 Hz) via Display Port adapter the fans will constantly spin. They will immediately stop when in clamshell mode.

Connecting it to the 5K Ultrafine via USB-C is basically the same, although the fans will come on more frequently even in clamshell mode. I could live with that, but god is this a stuttery and laggy mess. I know it's 5K so definitely not a joke to push that many pixels. But compared to a cheap desktop that doesn't cost 1/4 of my 16'' the experience is still really frustrating.

It definitely helps to disable Turbo Boost for me - but that only results in even worse performance and shouldn't be necessary imho.

 

[bill-p]

It makes sense, though. The GPU constantly eating up that 20W means you have less overall headroom for the CPU to thrive.

I did a quick test today, and with the lid open, I couldn't get the CPU cores past 2.7GHz even under the best conditions (I had my Dyson blow at full speed directly at the MacBook and it was not getting past 80 degrees Celsius). The computer hit about 70W CPU power consumption and stayed there with the lid open. Most of the times, all CPU cores stayed around 2.4GHz, which meant it barely did any Turbo Boost at all. That is why disabling Turbo Boost seems to help, I think.

In both clamshell and without a monitor connected, the CPU can easily reach 80-85W by itself, which translated to sustained 3.0 - 3.2GHz clockspeed for all cores. I saw an overall 30-40% better processing times.

My biggest project compiled in 1 minute and 30 seconds as opposed to 2 minutes and over. It's a pretty significant drop in performance. And that's a personal project. Some of my company's projects will easily see major benefits from that extra 30% performance increase.

So I can conclude that... yes, it is a pretty major issue for those who need to keep the lid open for their workflow, and for those who somehow are still running into the problem in clamshell mode.

 

[themcfly]

It makes sense, though. The GPU constantly eating up that 20W means you have less overall headroom for the CPU to thrive.

I did a quick test today, and with the lid open, I couldn't get the CPU cores past 2.7GHz even under the best conditions (I had my Dyson blow at full speed directly at the MacBook and it was not getting past 80 degrees Celsius). The computer hit about 70W CPU power consumption and stayed there with the lid open. Most of the times, all CPU cores stayed around 2.4GHz, which meant it barely did any Turbo Boost at all. That is why disabling Turbo Boost seems to help, I think.

In both clamshell and without a monitor connected, the CPU can easily reach 80-85W by itself, which translated to sustained 3.0 - 3.2GHz clockspeed for all cores. I saw an overall 30-40% better processing times.

My biggest project compiled in 1 minute and 30 seconds as opposed to 2 minutes and over. It's a pretty significant drop in performance. And that's a personal project. Some of my company's projects will easily see major benefits from that extra 30% performance increase.

So I can conclude that... yes, it is a pretty major issue for those who need to keep the lid open for their workflow, and for those who somehow are still running into the problem in clamshell mode.

Yes, had the same conclusions after my testings.

I was around at a clients place exporting a video from Premiere, using the MacBook Pro only, not even attached to power, and I could see the i9 really unleash its power drawing current from the battery only and using all the thermal headroom to turbo boost. As a comparison, while attached to power and docked to an external monitor (which, as unrelated note, has half the pixels to push compared to the internal one), saw 30% longer export times.

Just idling while docked in clamshell is 15 to 20C° more compared to the internal monitor. This is absurd.

 

[excessiveobserver]

I've noticed for the past couple of days that while TG Pro works, it spawns some kernel_task issues that slow down the machine so much to the point of unusability, requiring me to restart the machine every now and then. The developer of TG Pro posted a theory about it on Reddit:

Hey guys, this is Matt from Tunabelly Software - the makers of TG Pro. We've been looking into this issue for a bit and it seems that on the 16-inch【41 cm】 MBP, if the fan control is overriden (for example with TG Pro), and the fans speeds are too low for the system's liking, it causes the kernel_task to spike the CPU.

The theory is that if the CPU temperatures are around 60-70C and the fan speeds are set to the lower range, the kernel_task steals CPU styles (a lot of them) to stop other tasks from being able to use the CPU and heat up the processor even more.

We're looking at a few potential solutions and we're hoping to have an update available shortly that will resolve this.

As an alternative, I tried using Turbo Boost Switcher and hand over fan control back to macOS (basically just using TG Pro exclusively for fan and core temp stats ). So far Turbo Boost Switcher is working well, the core temps dropped to the 60-70C range. The fan is slightly audible, yes, but not as irritating (and worrying) as when core temps were in the constant 80-90C range. It also helps to keep the Macbook screen at a 90 degree angle to prevent partial blocking of the rear exhaust. I have a dual 2K monitor setup, so that's three screens being driven by the 16" Macbook.

So far, so good. Will post updates as I go.

 

[mrmachine79]

I've noticed for the past couple of days that while TG Pro works, it spawns some kernel_task issues that slow down the machine so much to the point of unusability, requiring me to restart the machine every now and then. The developer of TG Pro posted a theory about it on Reddit:

Hey guys, this is Matt from Tunabelly Software - the makers of TG Pro. We've been looking into this issue for a bit and it seems that on the 16-inch【41 cm】 MBP, if the fan control is overriden (for example with TG Pro), and the fans speeds are too low for the system's liking, it causes the kernel_task to spike the CPU.

The theory is that if the CPU temperatures are around 60-70C and the fan speeds are set to the lower range, the kernel_task steals CPU styles (a lot of them) to stop other tasks from being able to use the CPU and heat up the processor even more.

We're looking at a few potential solutions and we're hoping to have an update available shortly that will resolve this.

It’s not the fan speed being too low and the system blocking the cpu from heating up too much. It’s the VRM chip which has no heat sink and isn’t cooled well by the fans overheating because of the dgpu power usage and heat generated at idle being already very high (system controlled fans near max). Any additional actual workload on cpu and/or gpu can easily push the VRM and/or other components temp too high and the VRM goes into panic mode and starved the cpu of voltage dropping its frequency to 800mhz and kernel task to block use of cpu as well. Because beyond fans, which are already nearly at max for idle workloads because of the gpu, slowing down the cpu is the only thing the system can do to control heat even when the cpu is not causing the heat so this is not very effective. It’s like a bandaid on your finger because you cut your toe.

 

[TJ82]

I really hate to be that kind of poster, but this thread is 47 pages, can I get a tl;dr please?

Basically I run a monitor from my 13 inch MBP, and will need another monitor shortly as I'm now working from home, likely for a long time, so need to get my setup closer to the office one.

I ordered a 16 inch MBP this morning and will use that to power the setup and give me more screen space until I work out what monitor setup I'll go for.

Unfortunately an hour after ordering the 16inch I spotted this thread pop up and now I'm wondering if I've messed up by not doing my homework. I just assumed the new 16inch would be amazing for this purpose.