(2019) 16" is HOT & NOISY with an external monitor! :(

[weathermood]

I really hate to be that kind of poster, but this thread is 47 pages, can I get a tl;dr please?

Basically I run a monitor from my 13 inch MBP, and will need another monitor shortly as I'm now working from home, likely for a long time, so need to get my setup closer to the office one.

I ordered a 16 inch MBP this morning and will use that to power the setup and give me more screen space until I work out what monitor setup I'll go for.

Unfortunately an hour after ordering the 16inch I spotted this thread pop up and now I'm wondering if I've messed up by not doing my homework. I just assumed the new 16inch would be amazing for this purpose.

tl;dr: mbp 16 works ok with some external monitors in clamshell mode(personally can confirm only LG Ultrafines), doesn't work acceptably with all external monitors in a non-clamshell mode aka open lid(temperature and fan speed jump unreasonably high)

 

[mrmachine79]

I really hate to be that kind of poster, but this thread is 47 pages, can I get a tl;dr please?

Basically I run a monitor from my 13 inch MBP, and will need another monitor shortly as I'm now working from home, likely for a long time, so need to get my setup closer to the office one.

I ordered a 16 inch MBP this morning and will use that to power the setup and give me more screen space until I work out what monitor setup I'll go for.

Unfortunately an hour after ordering the 16inch I spotted this thread pop up and now I'm wondering if I've messed up by not doing my homework. I just assumed the new 16inch would be amazing for this purpose.

tldr 16 inch mbp is performance crippled with an external display and the lid open, and with the lid closed with some monitors/cables/refresh-rates. An eGPU or lid closed with the right monitors/cables/refresh-ratesare the only solutions.

since you already ordered, test it for yourself and then return it if need be.

 

[TJ82]

Thanks guys, that's pretty bad sugar-coating free news. On the fence now, I have time to cancel as it's not dispatched though due Monday.. Is there any chance at all that Apple will patch this? I see the original complaint on this thread is back in November!

 

[Caldzera]

Well, back then when the MBP 16" launched users also reported a "popping" sound when pausing or skipping a video. It was confirmed by Apple. They said that it is just a software bug. However, six months passed and it is still not fixed. Seeing this problem with the external monitors, which Apple even hasn't confirmed, I wouldn't say that Apple will patch this in the foreseeable future. If using the MPB in clamshell is an option to you to keep temperature and fanspin low, I would stick to the order. These two problems aside, the MBP 16" is great, the keyboard is perfect and it has enough power. However, if clamshell isn't really an option, I would cancel the order and wait for a newer model of the 15" / 16" MBP. I got my 16" MBP as soon as it was released, so I can't return it anymore. But as soon as a new model of the 15/16" is released, I will sell it, because the fanspin and temperatures are really annoying and clamshell isn't an option for me.

 

[TJ82]

Well, back then when the MBP 16" launched users also reported a "popping" sound when pausing or skipping a video. It was confirmed by Apple. They said that it is just a software bug. However, six months passed and it is still not fixed. Seeing this problem with the external monitors, which Apple even hasn't confirmed, I wouldn't say that Apple will patch this in the foreseeable future. If using the MPB in clamshell is an option to you to keep temperature and fanspin low, I would stick to the order. These two problems aside, the MBP 16" is great, the keyboard is perfect and it has enough power. However, if clamshell isn't really an option, I would cancel the order and wait for a newer model of the 15" / 16" MBP. I got my 16" MBP as soon as it was released, so I can't return it anymore. But as soon as a new model of the 15/16" is released, I will sell it, because the fanspin and temperatures are really annoying and clamshell isn't an option for me.

How common is this issue, the thread makes it look like it's widespread. Is there anyone that's not having this issues when running one or two monitors with the lid open? Clamshell isn't going to work for me unfortunately, I want that extra screen, or else I'd just keep my 13.

 

[jagooch]

I have followed this thread since its inception... and I have been very afraid to get the 16" MacBook Pro because of the things said in this thread, but... just saying: I got the 16" MacBook. Just plugged it into my monitor, which has direct Thunderbolt 3. And...

...okay, so I guess I'm not afflicted by the problem. Time will tell if one day I'll plug/unplug the MacBook and then I'll be greeted with loud fan and insane heat, but for now, this works.

That's what I get as well. Now, with the built-in display, Radeon High End increases to ~18W . If I run any graphics intensive apps like watching a Youbtube video, it goes to 19-20W. The temperature starts rising and eventually the fans will ramp up to max speed ~5600rpm.

 

[mrmachine79]

How common is this issue, the thread makes it look like it's widespread. Is there anyone that's not having this issues when running one or two monitors with the lid open? Clamshell isn't going to work for me unfortunately, I want that extra screen, or else I'd just keep my 13.

Zero chance Apple will fix it. The problem has existed in varying degrees in all Mac notebooks with dGPU. My 2019 15” for example can drop to 800mhz and start freezing up for 10s at a time while doing a video chat and cpu 85% idle because of the heat/power from the dGPU used to drive a 4K monitor and accelerate the video chat. It may be slightly better or worse in different years but you will never get full cpu performance or quiet machine with a dGPU notebook.

Keep the machine only if you can also afford an eGPU. And even then you may have problems and less than ideal performance without an external display when running apps that want but don’t strictly need dGPU. You can use a gSwitch app to force use of the iGPU instead but it has bugs and cannot work with an external display.

Honestly I would wait for the next 13/14” to see if it supports 32gb memory and buy that instead. Even with only 4 cores they should be faster clock and not be crippled by sharing TDP with a greedy dGPU. Also for anyone who has purchased a while ago you can still go through support and demand a refund or exchange with a different model. If support won’t approve then email Tim Cook directly and complain about the long and unsatisfactory support experience over system design problem. Had any of us known about this limitation before purchase we probably wouldn’t have bought it. The tech specs say it can run up to 4 external displays at 4K resolution but say nothing of the crippling performance compromises or extreme heat and fan noise.

 

[Rigtee]

I’ve also been following this thread for a couple of weeks/months as, in the past, I owned a 2016 15” MBP which was truly great but which I eventually sold because of the potential keyboard problem and also due its large footprint. I currently own a 2018 13” MBP and although I really love it, I could see myself migrating again to a dGPU laptop because I need that extra power (FCPX and photo editing). With the improvement of iPadOS, it’s also very practical to only take the iPad with me on campus when I just need something to review lecture notes (I’m a student).

With the pandemic, the MBP remains at home and is connected to a 32” Benq 4K display using a USB-C port (no adapter needed but not a TB3 port if I’m a correct). I don’t use any scaled resolution to avoid performance loss, I simply leave it in ”looks like 1080p” which makes the text a little big but very crisp (native 4K is just too small to be comfortable). Fans are quiet most of the time but can get really noisy when many apps are opened and naturally when the task is CPU/GPU intensive (like a FCP transcoding). I would rate my experience as comfortable but I wouldn’t refuse some more power.

Having a desktop is not really ideal for me as it would mean living with 2 different computers (and maybe 2 OS if I buy a Windows machine) and especially it is not compatible with a uni-home lifestyle. That’s why I was considering the 16” MBP but I’m really disappointed to read what many of you are experiencing every day. Such a premium laptop should be perfect and suits all power users needs, shame on you Apple.

Hopefully that will be fixed for this year’s update (if there is one) but, again, Apple leaves millions of customers behind with potential faulty machines; reminds me the butterfly keyboard scandal...

 

[AFPBoy]

Can someone comment on whether this problem popped up with a MacOS update, or was it there from the beginning for the 16" MBP? I thought I read a post somewhere about overheating with external monitors happening with an update. If that's the case, I would think it means it's a software problem, and hopefully something that could be fixed. If it is in the driver, then I am not convinced a revised 16" MBP would fix the problem.

 

[excessiveobserver]

Can someone comment on whether this problem popped up with a MacOS update, or was it there from the beginning for the 16" MBP? I thought I read a post somewhere about overheating with external monitors happening with an update. If that's the case, I would think it means it's a software problem, and hopefully something that could be fixed. If it is in the driver, then I am not convinced a revised 16" MBP would fix the problem.

Issue was already there when I get my new MBP last Monday. I didn't do a software update immediately.

 

[mrmachine79]

Can someone comment on whether this problem popped up with a MacOS update, or was it there from the beginning for the 16" MBP? I thought I read a post somewhere about overheating with external monitors happening with an update. If that's the case, I would think it means it's a software problem, and hopefully something that could be fixed. If it is in the driver, then I am not convinced a revised 16" MBP would fix the problem.

It won’t be fixed until Apple changes the hardware design and no longer forces use of the dGPU to drive external displays. This has been the case for every Mac notebook with a dGPU. With the 15 and 16 inch models you are paying extra for a dGPU that at best reduces the available power and thermal headroom for the cpu, even when you aren’t doing anything particularly graphics intensive, and at worst completely cripples the machine. Either get a 13/14 inch without dGPU, or an iMac if you can handle a desktop, or a 16 inch with an eGPU at considerable additional cost.

 

[Appledoesnotlisten]

It won’t be fixed until Apple changes the hardware design and no longer forces use of the dGPU to drive external displays. This has been the case for every Mac notebook with a dGPU. With the 15 and 16 inch models you are paying extra for a dGPU that at best reduces the available power and thermal headroom for the cpu, even when you aren’t doing anything particularly graphics intensive, and at worst completely cripples the machine. Either get a 13/14 inch without dGPU, or an iMac if you can handle a desktop, or a 16 inch with an eGPU at considerable additional cost.

Sorry, but neither of my 2017 15" machines behaves like this.

 

[bill-p]

How common is this issue, the thread makes it look like it's widespread. Is there anyone that's not having this issues when running one or two monitors with the lid open? Clamshell isn't going to work for me unfortunately, I want that extra screen, or else I'd just keep my 13.

So to sum up the above as I see some misinformation...

I have tried my 16" with:
Thunderbolt 3 LG 34WK95U - works fine in clamshell, 30% performance drop when lid open
USB-C LG 43UD79 - works fine in clamshell, 30% performance drop when lid open
Apple Digital AV adapter to our 2 4K TVs - works fine in clamshell, 30% performance drop when lid open

So I do not see clamshell being a problem with the "majority" as stated. It's most likely a problem in clamshell with unsupported docks/configuration that people are using. I'm pretty certain you can solve this with any USB-C display or Thunderbolt 3 display. I've read enough of this thread to conclude that.

Lid open is a problem that I can confirm.

You can just join us in the ultrawide coalition and forget about lid open, though. But if you absolutely have to have your lid open, then... yeah, stick to your 13". I actually still have my 13". I used to have the 13" and the eGPU setup, and... let's just say there is a reason I ultimately moved to the 16".

When the 16" is in clamshell and working properly, it is quiet. My room's ambient noise is about 36-40dB (I have an acoustic mic) at night and I cannot hear the fans at all. The eGPU... even when idle, is far more noticeable. The 13" + eGPU setup is actually far louder than the 16".

Also I would not recommend using the eGPU with the 16" at all. Especially if you have to switch between Mac OS and Windows with Bootcamp. You think this external monitor issue is "bad"? The eGPU side will basically sound like "horror story". I think most people who speak of eGPU as if it's a "solution" clearly have not tried that setup for an extended period of time at all. I have... and I can tell you, the 16" by itself in clamshell is the superior solution. But... yeah, your mileage may vary.

 

[Appledoesnotlisten]

You can just join us in the ultrawide coalition and forget about lid open, though.

 

[themcfly]

It won’t be fixed until Apple changes the hardware design and no longer forces use of the dGPU to drive external displays. This has been the case for every Mac notebook with a dGPU. With the 15 and 16 inch models you are paying extra for a dGPU that at best reduces the available power and thermal headroom for the cpu, even when you aren’t doing anything particularly graphics intensive, and at worst completely cripples the machine. Either get a 13/14 inch without dGPU, or an iMac if you can handle a desktop, or a 16 inch with an eGPU at considerable additional cost.

Can you please stop spreading ******** around?

With the 15", both 2017 and 2019, I could use a non-Thunderbolt monitor and it would run perfectly cool as it was running with the internal one. Adding Thunderbolt to the mix added some W of usage but nothing like we are seeing in these 16".

Now, the 16" has some major power usage problems:

1. Firstly the strange 18W state (which we see happens even in clamshell mode with some monitor which shouldn't trigger it, and changing or even upping refresh rates brings it down to 5W). Let's do some comparisons on how much the dGPU consumes with some monitors I have tested:

• 18W for clamshell 2560x1440 60hz, for a total of 221.184.000 pixel being rendered and pushed every second. Note that I didn't have an option to change refresh rate since it was locked at 60. This was using the OFFICIAL Apple HDMI adapter.
• 5W for clamshell 2560x1440 144hz, for a total of 530.841.600 pixel being rendered and pushed every second. This was a different monitor, and I could only get this result by using a direct Thunderbolt>Displayport cable. Using the OFFICIAL Apple HDMI adapter resulted in locking me at 18W still.

Note that according to calculations, we spend roughly 9 times the amount of power we need to spend during the 18W state, using Apple official adapters and cables, with all HDMI monitors. The thing that makes us believe that 18W is a buggy drivers issue is that it's the same threshold it skyrockets up to while the lid is open with an external monitor, and it just stays there: either if you're idle, or moving things on the monitor, or rendering videos, the dGPU just stays at 18W; while working correctly (5W) instead, you can see the power scale up to 6, 8, 10W based on how graphically intensive your workload is.

2. Secondly, we can see there is a power leak inside the chassis for just connecting cables, thing that wasn't happening in the 15" models. In the 15", no matter what, if you didn't connect any Thunderbolt peripherals, the Thunderbolt controller would stay on sleep and didn't consume any power. So with my old 15", I could connect an external USB Hub with HDMI + DisplayPort and the power usage would go up by 0W. If I connect the same hub to the 16W, I see an increase of 3-4W on the Thunderbolt controller on the side it's plugged into. Hell, even if I just plug an USB drive on the left side I have the same power usage. Just test this: disconnect EVERYTHING from your MacBook, and plug in two lightning cables with NOTHING attached, one on the left side and one on the right side. You will see 3W+3W burned on the Thunderbolt controllers for just attaching inactive cables, for a total of another 6W of heat wasted inside the chassis. This was not happening on the 15".

So, whenever you actually connect an external hub, you're burning 18W for the dGPU and another 3W at least just because you're using a port. At 21W, you have now a permanently hot system even at idle, with batteries always staying warm and ruining themselves, and most of all, you've given up 1/4 of the thermal performance of your brand new 4000$ machine which is always spinning up fans for staying at idle.

Now go and tell me again this was the same for the 15" just because it had a dGPU. You're entitled to have an opinion if you're grasping what we're talking about here, but clearly you don't. Users should be upset and should be reporting the issue to Apple for fixing, not just giving up. And this goes to all the other users continually saying "ThIs Is A cOmMon aNd unFiXabLe ProbLeM wItH MaCBooKs WitH DGPUs!!!"

 

[Caldzera]

@themcfly Can "confirm" your second point. Five persons in our office use the 2019 15" MBP. We tested a lot when the problem with my 16" MBP occurred - None of them had similar problems, all their devices were cool and stayed at a low W while an external monitor was used. We also tested every combination, USB-C displays, HDMI, tried different HUBs and adapters. The results were always the same. While my 16" went full Airbus A380, the 15" from 2019 kept their low temperatures. So I am willing to give up 1" more display as soon as the new 15" with the new keyboard comes out.

 

[austyn23]

I was planning to get the 16 MBP + Dell display 2560x1440 mainly for graphic design and animation (After Effects).

But this topic has pulled me back... I can´t believe a 2019 MBP can´t handle external displays with the lid open...

I have a 2015 MBP with the Dell display and never had any problem (or maybe my machine is using a lot of energy and I never realised that?).

 

[TJ82]

I was planning to get the 16 MBP + Dell display 2560x1440 mainly for graphic design and animation (After Effects).

But this topic has pulled me back... I can´t believe a 2019 MBP can´t handle external displays with the lid open...

I have a 2015 MBP with the Dell display and never had any problem (or maybe my machine is using a lot of energy and I never realised that?).

I'm in a state of disbelief too. This is a £2400 laptop that can't deal with something basic like an external monitor. Didn't cancel my order, I'll see what it's like this week in daily usage and if it's in any way distracting or sub par it's going back. They shouldn't be putting out products where guys are making Youtube videos on workarounds - which is how I spent my morning, looking at software to manipulate fans.

Then after breakfast it hit me, why on earth am I doing this on a £2400 laptop, this thing should be performing beyond expectations.

 

[Salomonander]

I'm in a state of disbelief too. This is a £2400 laptop that can't deal with something basic like an external monitor. Didn't cancel my order, I'll see what it's like this week in daily usage and if it's in any way distracting or sub par it's going back. They shouldn't be putting out products where guys are making Youtube videos on workarounds - which is how I spent my morning, looking at software to manipulate fans.

Then after breakfast it hit me, why on earth am I doing this on a £2400 laptop, this thing should be performing beyond expectations.

Its not just the fan issue but random kernel panics and excessive coil whine. its a buggy release. kind of a prototype ?‍♂️

 

[Caldzera]

Well, it is not like it can't handle an external monitor, it just gets as hot as as boiling water doing so, if you are running doing demanding tasks ?

The worst behaviour occurs while using an external monitor and charging the device simultaneously. The area above the touchbar gets really hot, sometimes so hot, that it isn't even fun to touch it anymore. However, if you don't plug the MBP in while using an external monitor, don't expect to run it for longer than about 2.5 hours, before the battery dies. So overall, it's probably the worst device one could get if external monitors will be used on a frequent basis.

Oh, and manipulating the fan behaviour isn't really a solution. It seems like the device feels too hot as soon as it can't cantrol the fans according to its liking, so "Kernel_task" kicks in to lower the CPUs MHz to reduce the temperature. Therefore, the device looses a lot of power.

 

[MrGimper]

@themcfly Can "confirm" your second point. Five persons in our office use the 2019 15" MBP. We tested a lot when the problem with my 16" MBP occurred - None of them had similar problems, all their devices were cool and stayed at a low W while an external monitor was used. We also tested every combination, USB-C displays, HDMI, tried different HUBs and adapters. The results were always the same. While my 16" went full Airbus A380, the 15" from 2019 kept their low temperatures. So I am willing to give up 1" more display as soon as the new 15" with the new keyboard comes out.

The 16” IS the new 15” with the new keyboard

 

[Caldzera]

@MrGimper Wait, the 15" won't be continued? Then how the hell could they **** up this conversion from 15"=>16" so badly Ugh, seems like I will be going back to the 13" devices.

 

[MrGimper]

@MrGimper Wait, the 15" won't be continued? Then how the hell could they **** up this conversion from 15"=>16" so badly Ugh, seems like I will be going back to the 13" devices.

You can’t buy a 15” at Apple anymore, unless it’s a refurb. The 16”’ has replaced it.

 

[themcfly]

@MrGimper Wait, the 15" won't be continued? Then how the hell could they **** up this conversion from 15"=>16" so badly Ugh, seems like I will be going back to the 13" devices.

The 16" by itself is a great improvement over the 15", if used standalone it has the best monitor, keyboard, and thermals, way better than the 15" was. Things get funky just when you add external monitors to the mix.

 

[MrGimper]

Can you please stop spreading ******** around?

With the 15", both 2017 and 2019, I could use a non-Thunderbolt monitor and it would run perfectly cool as it was running with the internal one. Adding Thunderbolt to the mix added some W of usage but nothing like we are seeing in these 16".

Now, the 16" has some major power usage problems:

1. Firstly the strange 18W state (which we see happens even in clamshell mode with some monitor which shouldn't trigger it, and changing or even upping refresh rates brings it down to 5W). Let's do some comparisons on how much the dGPU consumes with some monitors I have tested:

• 18W for clamshell 2560x1440 60hz, for a total of 221.184.000 pixel being rendered and pushed every second. Note that I didn't have an option to change refresh rate since it was locked at 60. This was using the OFFICIAL Apple HDMI adapter.
• 5W for clamshell 2560x1440 144hz, for a total of 530.841.600 pixel being rendered and pushed every second. This was a different monitor, and I could only get this result by using a direct Thunderbolt>Displayport cable. Using the OFFICIAL Apple HDMI adapter resulted in locking me at 18W still.

Note that according to calculations, we spend roughly 9 times the amount of power we need to spend during the 18W state, using Apple official adapters and cables, with all HDMI monitors. The thing that makes us believe that 18W is a buggy drivers issue is that it's the same threshold it skyrockets up to while the lid is open with an external monitor, and it just stays there: either if you're idle, or moving things on the monitor, or rendering videos, the dGPU just stays at 18W; while working correctly (5W) instead, you can see the power scale up to 6, 8, 10W based on how graphically intensive your workload is.

2. Secondly, we can see there is a power leak inside the chassis for just connecting cables, thing that wasn't happening in the 15" models. In the 15", no matter what, if you didn't connect any Thunderbolt peripherals, the Thunderbolt controller would stay on sleep and didn't consume any power. So with my old 15", I could connect an external USB Hub with HDMI + DisplayPort and the power usage would go up by 0W. If I connect the same hub to the 16W, I see an increase of 3-4W on the Thunderbolt controller on the side it's plugged into. Hell, even if I just plug an USB drive on the left side I have the same power usage. Just test this: disconnect EVERYTHING from your MacBook, and plug in two lightning cables with NOTHING attached, one on the left side and one on the right side. You will see 3W+3W burned on the Thunderbolt controllers for just attaching inactive cables, for a total of another 6W of heat wasted inside the chassis. This was not happening on the 15".

So, whenever you actually connect an external hub, you're burning 18W for the dGPU and another 3W at least just because you're using a port. At 21W, you have now a permanently hot system even at idle, with batteries always staying warm and ruining themselves, and most of all, you've given up 1/4 of the thermal performance of your brand new 4000$ machine which is always spinning up fans for staying at idle.

Now go and tell me again this was the same for the 15" just because it had a dGPU. You're entitled to have an opinion if you're grasping what we're talking about here, but clearly you don't. Users should be upset and should be reporting the issue to Apple for fixing, not just giving up. And this goes to all the other users continually saying "ThIs Is A cOmMon aNd unFiXabLe ProbLeM wItH MaCBooKs WitH DGPUs!!!"

What software are you using to see this power draw?