(2019) 16" is HOT & NOISY with an external monitor! :(

[bill-p]

If your new MacBook is a refurb, I'd suggest resetting the SMC a few times.

 

[XNorth]

How so?

For gaming, data transmission is one way to the eGPU and the display.

Using an eGPU for video editing, 3D, or any graphic intensive pixel crunching workflow, you are relying on the TB 3 for bi-directional data transmission to and from the external GPU, which slows down throughput and could saturate the 40Gbs bandwidth.

Currently, no eGPU setup performs better than the internal 5500M of the MBP 16" for video, photo, 3D, and likely scientific computing, too. Older Macs equipped with weaker GPUs could gain a big boost with an eGPU, though.

 

[am2am]

I’m wading in to add to that my MBP 16” has no unusual noisy fan and tempertures. It’s very quiet for everyday light use in dual display or clamshell.

My MBP gets noisy and higher temperatures only under heavy load.

My external display is the LG 34” 5K HDR connected directly (no dongle) via a Thunderbolt 3 cable that also charges the MBP. The discreet GPU is the Radeon 5500M 8GB. I’m using the latest beta OS, 10.15.5 Beta (19F72f).

The attached iStat Menus numbers and graphs show the wattage, fan speed, and temperatures of my MBP under different scenarios in which I use it.

USE: dual display, idle
GPU draw - 20 watts
Fan speed - 1840 rpm
Temp - 60° C
Fan noise - not audible from 12 inches/.3 meter

USE: dual display, YouTube 1080p60 video
GPU draw - 22 watts
Fan speed - 2200 rpm
Temp - 68° C
Fan noise - not audible from 112 inches/.3 meter

USE: external display only, Idle
GPU draw - 6 watts
Fan speed - 1840 rpm
Temp - 45-50° C
Fan noise - not audible from 12 inches/.3 meter

USE: external display only, Youtube video 1080p video
GPU draw - 10 watts
Fan speed - 2000 rpm
Temp - 60-65° C
Fan noise - not audible from 12 inches

USE: external display only, FCPX 4K timeline playback
GPU draw - 20-25 watts
Fan speed - 2500 rpm
Temp - 50-55° C
Fan noise - not audible from 12 inches/.3 meter

USE: dual display, FCPX 4K and 11 layers of unrendered basic text playback
GPU draw - 26-28 watts
Fan speed - 4800 rpm
Temp - 90-97° C
Fan noise - blowing and audible from 5 feet/1.5 meter

USE: external display only, FCPX 4K and 11 layers of unrendered basic text playback
GPU draw - 20-25 watts
Fan speed - 4600 rpm
Temp - 85-95° C
Fan noise - blowing and audible from 5 feet/1.5 meter

USE CASE CONCLUSIONS

Light use in clamshell mode - video playback, streaming, web browsing and office use - the Radeon GPU draws 6-10 watts, the CPU temperatures range from 50-65°, the fan speed averages 2000 rpm. There is no audible fan noise.

Light load use in dual display - fan speed, temperature, and GPU power draw increase by about 10% that of light load clamshell mode. There is no audible fan noise.

Heavy load use in clamshell mode - GPU power draw, temps, and fan speed are twice that of a light load use. Fan noise is clearly audible from at least 5 feet/1.5 matter away.

Heavy load use in dual display - fan speed, temps, and power draw are increased by about 10%, and the fan noise is audible from at least 5 ft/1.5 meter.

I have very similar experience to XNorth - have been sharing my data in this thread like .. 35 pages ago
It is nether hot nor noisy with external monitor (not only clamshell) during light use.
Under the load it is hot and I can hear fans but that's expected - result of 8 core CPU with powerful dGPU in action.

Your test results are very interesting. Did you experience the problem with hight temps and fan noise before installing 10.15.5 Beta? Would that mean Apple silently fixed the issue with the latest release?

Second question would be if your MBP 16” is a recent buy? Maybe there was some hardware issues and freshly manufactured devices don't suffer from the problem with temps and fan noise?

I've been sharing my similar experience in December 2019 so I would assume this is not related to hardware change in recent machines nor software release of crapalina.

 

[UBS28]

Zero chance Apple will fix it. The problem has existed in varying degrees in all Mac notebooks with dGPU. My 2019 15” for example can drop to 800mhz and start freezing up for 10s at a time while doing a video chat and cpu 85% idle because of the heat/power from the dGPU used to drive a 4K monitor and accelerate the video chat. It may be slightly better or worse in different years but you will never get full cpu performance or quiet machine with a dGPU notebook.

Keep the machine only if you can also afford an eGPU. And even then you may have problems and less than ideal performance without an external display when running apps that want but don’t strictly need dGPU. You can use a gSwitch app to force use of the iGPU instead but it has bugs and cannot work with an external display.

Honestly I would wait for the next 13/14” to see if it supports 32gb memory and buy that instead. Even with only 4 cores they should be faster clock and not be crippled by sharing TDP with a greedy dGPU. Also for anyone who has purchased a while ago you can still go through support and demand a refund or exchange with a different model. If support won’t approve then email Tim Cook directly and complain about the long and unsatisfactory support experience over system design problem. Had any of us known about this limitation before purchase we probably wouldn’t have bought it. The tech specs say it can run up to 4 external displays at 4K resolution but say nothing of the crippling performance compromises or extreme heat and fan noise.

That is nonsense. My 2018 MacBook Pro is used with a 4K display at home with a dGPU and it works 100% fine.

Just because the 16” MacBook Pro has problems does not mean that all Macbook Pro with a dGPU has this problem.

 

[Webster's Mac]

Macbook Pros have historically run hotter with external displays, especially dedicated GPU models. Is the 2019 16" that much worse? My Mid-2015 with the M370X GPU constantly revs up its fans and will thermal throttle some under full load (can usually maintain around base clock though) with two 4k displays hooked up to it. That's after repasting it twice too with Arctic MX-4. Yes that's kind of an extreme usecase for a 2015 MBP, but still. They're known for running hot. It hits 90+ degrees Celsius daily...often hitting 99C.

 

[am2am]

I’ve received my 2.3/64GB to replace my 2.4/32GB, both refurbs. Interesting to see that the 2.3 seems to idle some 10 degrees higher than the 2.4 and get hot with very little activity. I’ll let everything settle down but seems odd, especially as the 2.3 is a slower chip.

Nothing odd.
CPU binning process.
i9 2.4 are the best from the same silicon batch.
If CPU fails to meet certain standards (or is not tested at all) then it became i9 2.3 or i7 after disabling some cores.
Better binned silicon = higher chances to perform within scope = lower temps with similar load.

EDIT
Just noticed you've just received it. Let it run for some time - initial indexing, syncing, etc can impact your experience.

 

[MrGimper]

Nothing odd.
CPU binning process.
i9 2.4 are the best from the same silicon batch.
If CPU fails to meet certain standards (or is not tested at all) then it became i9 2.3 or i7 after disabling some cores.
Better binned silicon = higher chances to perform within scope = lower temps with similar load.

EDIT
Just noticed you've just received it. Let it run for some time - initial indexing, syncing, etc can impact your experience.

Cool, and quite literally cool as a few SMC resets seem to have solved the issue.

 

[slicktromboner]

Macbook Pros have historically run hotter with external displays, especially dedicated GPU models. Is the 2019 16" that much worse? My Mid-2015 with the M370X GPU constantly revs up its fans and will thermal throttle some under full load (can usually maintain around base clock though) with two 4k displays hooked up to it. That's after repasting it twice too with Arctic MX-4. Yes that's kind of an extreme usecase for a 2015 MBP, but still. They're known for running hot. It hits 90+ degrees Celsius daily...often hitting 99C.

The thing is that it isn't proportional to the demand on the dGPU. It does it at most combinations of display resolutions and refresh rates, but not on others. Mine spikes to 20+ watts of demand on the Radeon with a 1080p display at 60hz, but some only see 5-8 watts with a 4k monitor.

 

[XNorth]

Your test results are very interesting. Did you experience the problem with hight temps and fan noise before installing 10.15.5 Beta? Would that mean Apple silently fixed the issue with the latest release?

Bought it early January 2020. It came with 10.15.2. Honestly, I wasn't paying attention because everything just worked, but I don't remember the fan and temps being any higher then. My biggest gripe so far has been the lack of Catalina support for HDR at 5120x2160 on my 5K HDR display.

 

[mateusz_]

Bought it early January 2020. It came with 10.15.2. Honestly, I wasn't paying attention because everything just worked, but I don't remember the fan and temps being any higher then. My biggest gripe so far has been the lack of Catalina support for HDR at 5120x2160 on my 5K HDR display.

Thanks for the reply. I'm considering buying either MBP 16 or announced today MBP 13 refresh. I would buy 16 inch due to larger screen, but I'm really scared of running into "hot issues". I travel from time to time, but when I'm at home I connect my laptop to 27inch 4k LG display.

 

[lukelol]

I've been having the same issue with my MSI Prestige PS341WU monitor connected via USB-C/Thunderbolt OR Thunderbolt -> VisionTek Thunderbolt3 Doc->Display Port.

20-21 Watts used in open mode, fans blazing.
7-8 watts in 'clamshell' mode, nice and quiet.

A friend with 2 external HP z27 4K monitors says there's no noticeable heat/noise but hasn't measured power consumption values [in clamshell mode].

Please, if you have this same problem, submit feedback to Apple here: https://www.apple.com/feedback/macbookpro.html

 

[subjonas]

For gaming, data transmission is one way to the eGPU and the display.

Using an eGPU for video editing, 3D, or any graphic intensive pixel crunching workflow, you are relying on the TB 3 for bi-directional data transmission to and from the external GPU, which slows down throughput and could saturate the 40Gbs bandwidth.

Currently, no eGPU setup performs better than the internal 5500M of the MBP 16" for video, photo, 3D, and likely scientific computing, too. Older Macs equipped with weaker GPUs could gain a big boost with an eGPU, though.

I’m confused though. I thought TB3 was full duplex. Am I not understanding this correctly?

 

[ondioline]

Computational work requires a round trip is all he means. It's simple to understand. The data has to go from your computer, to the eGPU, and then back. This adds latency because it can only travel at the speed of light + whatever time it takes to compute.

When you're playing a video game it's just sending data to the eGPU to display through its native DP/HDMI port so it isn't affected in the same way.

 

[garymontague]

Sorry in advance if this has been asked already as I haven’t had a chance to read the entire thread due to ‘homeschooling’ my two children.

I waited for the 13” refresh before I made a decision on which MacBook Pro to purchase and like a few people felt a little underwhelmed by it. I am now considering my options between the 13” and 16” models as a refurb 16” isn’t that much more expensive than a 10th gen 13” and so was leaning towards the 16” model.

I then came across this thread in relation to external monitors. I will be using the MacBook around 90% of the time attached to a monitor so this is a bit concerning to me. Is the heat and noise really that bad or something you will get accustomed to? Will it damage the MacBook? I currently have a 1080p monitor but was looking to upgrade this to to a 4K one. Would you still recommend the 16” in this circumstance or do you think the new 13” will handle external monitors better?

Slightly off topic, the 16” refurbs come with 16gb RAM. I won’t be doing anything too taxing on the MacBook just accounting software, office software, mail, surfing etc. I will though occasionally need to use a virtual machine to access some software that is only available on the Windows platform. Do you think 16gb will suffice or better to upgrade to 32gb to safe guard and ‘future proof’

Thank you

 

[-narcan-]

I travel from time to time, but when I'm at home I connect my laptop to 27inch 4k LG display.

I have my 16" connected to a 5k LG 27" and a 4k LG 27", and don't hear the fans unless I'm doing something serious.

 

[Caldzera]

Sorry in advance if this has been asked already as I haven’t had a chance to read the entire thread due to ‘homeschooling’ my two children.

I waited for the 13” refresh before I made a decision on which MacBook Pro to purchase and like a few people felt a little underwhelmed by it. I am now considering my options between the 13” and 16” models as a refurb 16” isn’t that much more expensive than a 10th gen 13” and so was leaning towards the 16” model.

I then came across this thread in relation to external monitors. I will be using the MacBook around 90% of the time attached to a monitor so this is a bit concerning to me. Is the heat and noise really that bad or something you will get accustomed to? Will it damage the MacBook? I currently have a 1080p monitor but was looking to upgrade this to to a 4K one. Would you still recommend the 16” in this circumstance or do you think the new 13” will handle external monitors better?

Slightly off topic, the 16” refurbs come with 16gb RAM. I won’t be doing anything too taxing on the MacBook just accounting software, office software, mail, surfing etc. I will though occasionally need to use a virtual machine to access some software that is only available on the Windows platform. Do you think 16gb will suffice or better to upgrade to 32gb to safe guard and ‘future proof’

Thank you

In my experience, it can get really bad, at least if you aren't using it in clamshell. Clamshell is not really an option to me, so everything what follows are my experiences with my device being used with an 27" Dell S2716DG. However, temperatures and fan noise could be better in clamshell, haven't tested that.
The noise isn't a big deal if you aren't charging the MBP 16" while simultaneously using an external monitor. However, if you do so, the noise and heat are - in my opinion - extreme. My MBP get so hot around the touchbar, especially at the metal area above it. Touching it isn't fun then. And the battery gets drained much faster due to the extensive power consumption of the GPU.

I can't tell you if it will damage the device. However, in the Apple forum a user reported that many of his devices failed after extended periods (many weeks, if not months) using the MBP 16" with an external monitor. It seems like the GPU got fried. However, he also said that he and his team use the MBPs professionally for really heavy tasks.

My 2015 13" MBP was running much cooler and less noisy with the external monitor. I don't use my devices for anything heavy. Just like you, I am using office software, Mail, surfing on them etc. I will wait until November - if no refreshed 16" is released until then, I will definitely sell my actual 16" and go back to the 13". The 16" is overall a great device, has the perfect keyboard and the screen is awesome. But it isn't worth it for me, the noise and temperature in combination with the much faster battery drainage when using an external monitor (which I do all the time at home) are just awful.

 

[_meds]

Hey guys! Long time sufferer of this issue, first time poster - I thought I might share some of my discoveries suffering from tinitus due to this problem.

The issue has to do with the Radeon GPU which does not handle multiple displays very well, if you run a single external display in clamshell mode you shouldn't experience any issues for example.

The core of the issue has to do with HDMI it seems, it appears to cause the GPU to run its GPU memory speed at maximum increasing power draw, the argument for this behaviour is to prevent display drop ot - how nVidia manages to do this without display dropouts remains a mystery.

I found in bootcamp when running two external displays in clamshell if I set both resolutions to the same (i.e. 1920x1200 but not 1920x1080, I have found success running higher resolutions too but not 4k) the memory clock speed drops *except* when I change the scaling mode of one of the displays:

My understanding is this is an AMD driver issue to do with display timing, and when two displays running over HDMI have the same resolution it can avoid having to boost the memory speed. Unfortunately even then I have issues when trying to run both displays at 4k so who even knows what's going on.

I've read that it's possible to avoid this issue by using display port cables for external displays only, have not been able to verify this and can validate that using the CalDigit TS3+ dock through displayport does not alleviate the issue, although some have siad that may be because the dock is converting the signal to HDMI.

I know of one person who did try using a display port connection to an external screen and it didn't work for him, I don't know of any success stories so have held off buying usb-c to display port cables (Apple doesn't even make any as far as I'm aware).

 

[evilzardoz]

Hey,

I've had this issue since I received my launch day 2019 16" (2.4GHz/64GB/8TB/R5500 8GB). System works fine with a single LG 27" 5K display (first revision - TB3 only) but I have issues with clamshell on my Dell U3017 2560x1600 via HDMI or Displayport, or if I have the system with the lid open. I typically run both my Dell and LG display (and sometimes a third Apple Thunderbolt 27").

I still have my 2019 15" (2.4GHz/32GB/4TB/Vega 20) which had the Radeon High Side power sensor increase by perhaps a watt or two - so it was sitting at around 9.5W with both the Dell and LG displays active and its own internal display open. I don't recall running into this issue on any of my touch bar pros until the 16".

Wish I returned the 16" and waited out for another product cycle.

 

[XNorth]

I’m confused though. I thought TB3 was full duplex. Am I not understanding this correctly?

Latency. Being full duplex doesn't eliminate latency caused by the eGPU, which becomes an another step, or bottleneck, that reduces the bandwidth. A GPU on the motherboard has a direct PCIe connection to the CPU so it's more efficient. An eGPU's processing power is cut by as much as 20% compared to it connected directly to the motherboard.

 

[esphil]

Hey guys! Long time sufferer of this issue, first time poster - I thought I might share some of my discoveries suffering from tinitus due to this problem.

The issue has to do with the Radeon GPU which does not handle multiple displays very well, if you run a single external display in clamshell mode you shouldn't experience any issues for example.

The core of the issue has to do with HDMI it seems, it appears to cause the GPU to run its GPU memory speed at maximum increasing power draw, the argument for this behaviour is to prevent display drop ot - how nVidia manages to do this without display dropouts remains a mystery.

I found in bootcamp when running two external displays in clamshell if I set both resolutions to the same (i.e. 1920x1200 but not 1920x1080, I have found success running higher resolutions too but not 4k) the memory clock speed drops *except* when I change the scaling mode of one of the displays:

My understanding is this is an AMD driver issue to do with display timing, and when two displays running over HDMI have the same resolution it can avoid having to boost the memory speed. Unfortunately even then I have issues when trying to run both displays at 4k so who even knows what's going on.

I've read that it's possible to avoid this issue by using display port cables for external displays only, have not been able to verify this and can validate that using the CalDigit TS3+ dock through displayport does not alleviate the issue, although some have siad that may be because the dock is converting the signal to HDMI.

I know of one person who did try using a display port connection to an external screen and it didn't work for him, I don't know of any success stories so have held off buying usb-c to display port cables (Apple doesn't even make any as far as I'm aware).

Interesting. I just received my 16" this morning and I might just order a usb-c to display port cable. I might have to order one.

 

[SnackTime]

Hey guys! Long time sufferer of this issue, first time poster - I thought I might share some of my discoveries suffering from tinitus due to this problem.

The issue has to do with the Radeon GPU which does not handle multiple displays very well, if you run a single external display in clamshell mode you shouldn't experience any issues for example.

The core of the issue has to do with HDMI it seems, it appears to cause the GPU to run its GPU memory speed at maximum increasing power draw, the argument for this behaviour is to prevent display drop ot - how nVidia manages to do this without display dropouts remains a mystery.

I found in bootcamp when running two external displays in clamshell if I set both resolutions to the same (i.e. 1920x1200 but not 1920x1080, I have found success running higher resolutions too but not 4k) the memory clock speed drops *except* when I change the scaling mode of one of the displays:

My understanding is this is an AMD driver issue to do with display timing, and when two displays running over HDMI have the same resolution it can avoid having to boost the memory speed. Unfortunately even then I have issues when trying to run both displays at 4k so who even knows what's going on.

I've read that it's possible to avoid this issue by using display port cables for external displays only, have not been able to verify this and can validate that using the CalDigit TS3+ dock through displayport does not alleviate the issue, although some have siad that may be because the dock is converting the signal to HDMI.

I know of one person who did try using a display port connection to an external screen and it didn't work for him, I don't know of any success stories so have held off buying usb-c to display port cables (Apple doesn't even make any as far as I'm aware).

So, in my experience with my 16" MBP (i9 2.3ghz/16GB/5500M 4gb) with an external monitor ASUS VA32AQ (2560x1440@60hz) - in clamshell mode - the Radeon GPU is drawing 18W+ while idle. My Monitor is connected via HDMI -> USBC dongle -> MBP.

What I find odd about this is that with the lid closed, as it always is currently, I am generating more heat to power a weaker display. More odd though is that other people are apparently drawing only 4-10W while connected to their monitor - sometimes at high resolutions.

I guess to help test your hypothesis I will buy a few different cables - USBC->HDMI and USBC->DP and see what happens.

 

[PeterJP]

As promised, I tested my brand new refurb 2.3GHz 16" and these are my findings for the Radeon High Side. I'm using this 2-in-1 converter for miniDP and HDMI. My screen is a 27" Dell U2711 that can do 2560x1440 via DP but only 1920x1080 via HDMI

• Used on its own: 4,5-5,5W
• Using the converter to mini DisplayPort: 20W
• Idem but clamshell: still at 20W
• Adding the converter to HDMI, dual screen: 20W
• Idem but clamshell: back down to 4,5-5,5W

Unfortunately, it seems like HyperDrive has no support whatsoever anymore for this dual converter. So despite them having a good support site, there's nothing there about this converter. With miniDP, I can't change the external screen's frequency. I'd love to try that to get it back down to 4-5W in clamshell at full resolution, too. Full HD only on a 27" in clamshell is useless to me.

But I have to admit that, coming from my 13", the 16" screen is so large I don't really need my external screen at the moment. Once I'm all up to speed working in multiple documents, however, that will change.

@lukelol I left a bug report on Apple's website through your link.

 

[SnackTime]

For the hell of it, I've done some more fiddling around.

I attached a second external display via USB-C (3440x1440@60HZ) directly to monitor.
Other external display is 2560x1440@60hz via HDMI -> USB-C dongle -> MBP.

Here are my results:

Monitor 1 (2560x1440@60hz HDMI) + clamshell = 17.7W Radeon High Side

Monitor 1 + Monitor 2 (3440x1440@60hz usb-c) + clamshell = 18.2W (.5W increase roughly).

Monitor 1 + Monitor 2 + Lid Open (most space option) = 19W (approx 1W increase)

Monitor 2 + clamshell = 7W

Monitor 2 + lid open (most space) = 18W



So, in my experience, using an HDMI cable into a USB-C dongle, into MBP (left side) makes it freak out and generate heat for no obvious reason to me.
I'm pushing more pixels for less heat, just with a USB-C cable.

 

[AFPBoy]

I attached a second external display via USB-C (3440x1440@60HZ) directly to monitor.
Other external display is 2560x1440@60hz via HDMI -> USB-C dongle -> MBP.

The USB-C dongle is the one from Apple with the HDMI?

Could you connect your Monitor 2 with the USB-C dongle and HDMI in clamshell mode to see if the power consumption changes?

 

[esphil]

I ordered a usb-c to display port and will test, should be here this week. Looking at some reviews on the cables people actually say it fixed the issue so we will see.