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mrmachine79

macrumors regular
Mar 31, 2020
134
165
Can you please stop spreading ******** around?
All I'm spreading around is my personal experience and observations. I stand by my comments. All Mac notebooks with dGPU are forced to use the dGPU when an external display is connected. The 16" MBP may also have other issues as you have described, or more severe symptoms from the same underlying issues. But the point remains that even if you are not doing anything particularly intensive with an external display and the lid open, you will still give up some available power and thermal headroom for the dGPU (5-20W), which is therefore no longer available for the CPU. And this won't change until Apple changes the hardware requirement to use dGPU for external displays, which seems unlikely.

I've spent 2 months and 40+ hours dealing with Apple support over this issue on a 2019 15". It's been tested by Apple twice and the results came back both times "working as designed". This machine uses ~18W for "Radeon High Side" with a 27" 4K display at "looks like 2560x1440" resolution attached and the lid open (via USB-C->USB-C, TB3->DP, and DP->DB via TB3 dock). It uses ~12W for all of the following: "looks like 3008x1692" (text and UI too small), "default for display" (text and UI too big), "low resolution" 2560x1440, and another native 2560x1440 display. It uses ~5W with just the internal display and the dGPU force enabled.

With 18W used for "Radeon High Side" it is pretty easy to make this machine start freezing up for 10s at a time. At the extreme, Intel Power Gadget report frequency drops to 800MHz and Power/PKG drops as low as 7W under load (when it should be sustaining ~40-50W), even while CPU temps are ~70-80c. This happens in Mojave and Catalina. It happens on a fresh install of macOS with zero software besides Safari (playing a 1080p YouTube video) and additionally exercising the dGPU by triggering the expose animation repetitively with the external display attached (Apple insisted I reproduce the issue without any other software, and without any artificial stress tests). It also happens at other resolutions, but requires a little more exercising of the dGPU to trigger.

I recommend that anyone with a 15" or 16" MBP connect an external 4K monitor at various resolutions (default, "looks like" 3008x1692/2560x1440, and "low-resolution" 2560x1440) and run Intel Power Gadget to watch Power/PKG and Frequency graphs while running Cinebench on loop (via min test duration) and Luxmark GPU stress test (which loops indefinitely) at the same time to see how dGPU use can completely cripple the CPU. Granted this is an artificial stress test, but I only ever needed to run it to try and reliably reproduce an issue (freezing system) that was happening frequently under normal use (85% idle CPU, normal apps e.g. browsers and code editors and terminal etc. running but idle during a long video conference call). Run the same Cinebench test with only mild dGPU usage (1-1 video chat on Discord or Zoom) or repetitively triggering the expose animation, and then both scenarios with just the internal display to compare dGPU usage (light and extreme) affects CPU performance.

If you don't see any degradation of CPU performance in a 2019 15" MBP with external 4K display, I'd love to hear about it.

My iMac by comparison can run this same stress test indefinitely with a stable ~4GHz frequency. 15" and 16" MBPs just don't have enough thermal headroom for CPU *AND* dGPU, and you're FORCED to use dGPU with an external display.

The 16" may also have even more extreme problems such as 18-20W Radeon High Side at *all* resolutions with the lid open, but that doesn't mean older 15" models weren't being CPU limited under normal/non-graphics-intensive workloads with external monitors.

So I still recommend waiting for the updated 13/14" which is about to drop and hopefully has a good CPU/iGPU bump and 32GB, if you can live with 4 cores. If you *need* 6/8 cores in a portable machine, I'd be looking at a Razer Core X eGPU. A noisy or even a noisy MBP doesn't bother me. One that runs at 800MHz does. And I'm sure you can swap out the eGPU chassis fan for a quiet Noctua and get a graphics card with quiet fans. Many don't even run the fans at all at low temps.

A refreshed 16" or updated drivers may or may not solve some of the additional problems/symptoms you mentioned in the 2019 16", but I doubt it will resolve the fact that MBPs with dGPUs are struggling to utilise CPU and dGPU at the same time, and you're forced to use the dGPU with external displays.

No matter what apps or benchmarks I run to tax both CPU and dGPU, these machines should have sufficient cooling to run the CPU at the advertised base frequency, at a minimum. They can't. That's not new, and I think it likely won't be fixed.

But by all means, I am all for people engaging with Apple support to get the number of complaints up. Email Tim Cook if you don't get anywhere with second level support. This is definitely a problem that should be resolved. I just don't have faith that it will given the effort that I and others have reported in troubleshooting with Apple directly, and the fact that forced use of dGPU has always been the case and always generated complaints, from what I've read.
 

austyn23

macrumors 6502a
Nov 22, 2017
620
709
With this prices and the Pro name on it, it should handle perfect with an external display, without tweaks... just open and run.

We are not talking about video editing with an Air and a display, we are talking about a 3000 dls Pro machine...
 

esphil

macrumors regular
Oct 19, 2008
190
95
With this prices and the Pro name on it, it should handle perfect with an external display, without tweaks... just open and run.

We are not talking about video editing with an Air and a display, we are talking about a 3000 dls Pro machine...
I'm sure it would handle Apples $6000 display just fine though. hehe
 

jagooch

macrumors 6502a
Jul 17, 2009
808
249
Denver, co
Just out of interest, has anyone confirmed the same issue with the latest Catalina 10.15.5 beta?

I'm curious about this as well. I'd install the beta if I wasn't already working with Apple to fix my overheating issue. I'm not going to make any drastic changes without their direction. They collected diagnostic data from my system on 4/28/2020 which is the last I've heard from them. Hopefully they get back to me tomorrow.

I was sad that my dual monitor arm setup arrived yesterday, but I could only hook up one display because of the overheating issue.
 

davidbend

macrumors member
Dec 28, 2019
44
51
My recommendations for those who have the problem:

1. Write feedback here: https://www.apple.com/feedback/macbookpro.html, describe the issue carefully.
2. Call Apple support and report about this issue. Don't give up until you get an official response from the engineers.

It's very important to describe the issue as high GPU power consumption with external monitor/s, instead of complaining about fan noise, which is one of the symptoms (you can read about the issue here: https://discussions.apple.com/thread/251329522)

We need to repeat this process as many times as needed (I personally send feedback every single day!). We need to make Apple acknowledge this problem. We can't give up!
 

XNorth

macrumors 6502
Feb 23, 2018
300
464
United States
I’m wading in to add to that my MBP 16” has no unusual noisy fan and tempertures. It’s very quiet for everyday light use in dual display or clamshell.

My MBP gets noisy and higher temperatures only under heavy load.

My external display is the LG 34” 5K HDR connected directly (no dongle) via a Thunderbolt 3 cable that also charges the MBP. The discreet GPU is the Radeon 5500M 8GB. I’m using the latest beta OS, 10.15.5 Beta (19F72f).

The attached iStat Menus numbers and graphs show the wattage, fan speed, and temperatures of my MBP under different scenarios in which I use it.

USE: dual display, idle
GPU draw - 20 watts
Fan speed - 1840 rpm
Temp - 60° C
Fan noise - not audible from 12 inches/.3 meter

USE: dual display, YouTube 1080p60 video
GPU draw - 22 watts
Fan speed - 2200 rpm
Temp - 68° C
Fan noise - not audible from 112 inches/.3 meter

USE: external display only, Idle
GPU draw - 6 watts
Fan speed - 1840 rpm
Temp - 45-50° C
Fan noise - not audible from 12 inches/.3 meter

USE: external display only, Youtube video 1080p video
GPU draw - 10 watts
Fan speed - 2000 rpm
Temp - 60-65° C
Fan noise - not audible from 12 inches

USE: external display only, FCPX 4K timeline playback
GPU draw - 20-25 watts
Fan speed - 2500 rpm
Temp - 50-55° C
Fan noise - not audible from 12 inches/.3 meter

USE: dual display, FCPX 4K and 11 layers of unrendered basic text playback
GPU draw - 26-28 watts
Fan speed - 4800 rpm
Temp - 90-97° C
Fan noise - blowing and audible from 5 feet/1.5 meter

USE: external display only, FCPX 4K and 11 layers of unrendered basic text playback
GPU draw - 20-25 watts
Fan speed - 4600 rpm
Temp - 85-95° C
Fan noise - blowing and audible from 5 feet/1.5 meter

USE CASE CONCLUSIONS

Light use in clamshell mode
- video playback, streaming, web browsing and office use - the Radeon GPU draws 6-10 watts, the CPU temperatures range from 50-65°, the fan speed averages 2000 rpm. There is no audible fan noise.

Light load use in dual display - fan speed, temperature, and GPU power draw increase by about 10% that of light load clamshell mode. There is no audible fan noise.

Heavy load use in clamshell mode - GPU power draw, temps, and fan speed are twice that of a light load use. Fan noise is clearly audible from at least 5 feet/1.5 matter away.

Heavy load use in dual display - fan speed, temps, and power draw are increased by about 10%, and the fan noise is audible from at least 5 ft/1.5 meter.

Radeon power draw:
Radeon Wattage.png


CPU temperatures:
CPU Temps.png


Fan speed:
Fan speed.png
 
Last edited:

bill-p

macrumors 68030
Jul 23, 2011
2,929
1,589
Yeah, just to add to the 34" post above, since that's what I have: the one Thunderbolt 3 cable also provides 85W charging, which to me seems to be adequate for prolonged heavy load on CPU. It's a one-cable solution for those who want clamshell mode.

The display is also ultra-wide, at 34" with 5120 x 2160 resolution. Supports 10-bit, HDR, etc...

I don't find the need to operate the computer in lid open with a monitor this wide, but I guess YMMV.
 

joelhinch

macrumors 6502
Oct 2, 2012
382
764
So to sum up the above as I see some misinformation...

I have tried my 16" with:
Thunderbolt 3 LG 34WK95U - works fine in clamshell, 30% performance drop when lid open
USB-C LG 43UD79 - works fine in clamshell, 30% performance drop when lid open
Apple Digital AV adapter to our 2 4K TVs - works fine in clamshell, 30% performance drop when lid open

So I do not see clamshell being a problem with the "majority" as stated. It's most likely a problem in clamshell with unsupported docks/configuration that people are using. I'm pretty certain you can solve this with any USB-C display or Thunderbolt 3 display. I've read enough of this thread to conclude that.

Lid open is a problem that I can confirm.

You can just join us in the ultrawide coalition and forget about lid open, though. But if you absolutely have to have your lid open, then... yeah, stick to your 13". I actually still have my 13". I used to have the 13" and the eGPU setup, and... let's just say there is a reason I ultimately moved to the 16".

When the 16" is in clamshell and working properly, it is quiet. My room's ambient noise is about 36-40dB (I have an acoustic mic) at night and I cannot hear the fans at all. The eGPU... even when idle, is far more noticeable. The 13" + eGPU setup is actually far louder than the 16".

Also I would not recommend using the eGPU with the 16" at all. Especially if you have to switch between Mac OS and Windows with Bootcamp. You think this external monitor issue is "bad"? The eGPU side will basically sound like "horror story". I think most people who speak of eGPU as if it's a "solution" clearly have not tried that setup for an extended period of time at all. I have... and I can tell you, the 16" by itself in clamshell is the superior solution. But... yeah, your mileage may vary.
What issues did you have with eGPU ?
 

bill-p

macrumors 68030
Jul 23, 2011
2,929
1,589
What issues did you have with eGPU ?

Well, disconnects due to bad cables nonwithstanding, I also use Bootcamp pretty regularly and it's... insane over there. Let's say. Windows 10 1903 completely dropped the ball.

Also I can't make use of the whole bandwidth (40gbps) allowance if I want to connect anything to the eGPU dock while the GPU is stressed. A USB 3.0 SSD can easily reach 10gbps and leave only 30gbps available to the eGPU. So I need to copy everything to an internal drive, or use a different port if I want to leave all bandwidth available to the eGPU. So the eGPU is not this magical one-cable solution it seems to be.

The 16" MacBook already has a dGPU that is close to the performance of a low-end eGPU and coupled with the LG 34" 5K display is a one-cable setup that Intel and Apple promised when they introduced the standard. I can connect everything else to a hub that is connected to the monitor itself. Full USB 3.0 bandwidth.

Here's a video that I think basically mirrors my experience:

The eGPU is nice for gaming... but aside from that, it's not that much better for video and photo editing. In fact, it's kinda unnecessary if gaming is not a consideration.

So the 13" MacBook should be... "more portable", which is true. But at my desk? The 13" + eGPU + I need to keep a ton of other things plugged into the 13" when I come home = messy.

The 16" at my desk now just needs one cable. Far less messy.
 

joelhinch

macrumors 6502
Oct 2, 2012
382
764
The 16" at my desk now just needs one cable. Far less messy.
The reason I’m considering an eGPU is that the dGPU is getting too hot running my 2x 4K displays and therefore limits CPU performance. Im also considering just getting rid of the 16” and getting a 13” with iGPU. So will need something a bit more powerful than the 13” iGPU to run the displays.
 

bill-p

macrumors 68030
Jul 23, 2011
2,929
1,589
The reason I’m considering an eGPU is that the dGPU is getting too hot running my 2x 4K displays and therefore limits CPU performance. Im also considering just getting rid of the 16” and getting a 13” with iGPU. So will need something a bit more powerful than the 13” iGPU to run the displays.

So... the 16" by itself can do 2x 4K displays easily. Just daisy chain them and leave the computer in clamshell.

If you absolutely need to also have the MacBook's lid open because... I guess a lot of people have a valid reason to want multiple screens, then... sure, I guess the 16" is just not going to work "well" for that use case.

But please be warned that... if you want more CPU performance, the 13" + eGPU setup isn't going to give that to you. Even with the GPU using more power and causing the CPU to throttle, the 16" is still able to keep CPU performance up higher than the 13" in my experience.

The 13" only has at best a quad-core CPU, and it lacks the capability of the cooling system of the 16", so it's not going to be able to extract that much more CPU performance. I think people tend to forget that the 13" is limited to about 60W of power.

So yeah, that's the fair warning. The 13" + eGPU setup definitely gives a better GPU... that may be useful if you are gaming, but other than that, the 16" is still the top dog when it comes to overall package and CPU performance IMHO. Or wait for the 2020 13", I guess. I'm not hopeful since Intel is still stuck on 14nm. There is only so much they can do to make the 2020 13" that much "better" than last year's model.
 

joelhinch

macrumors 6502
Oct 2, 2012
382
764
So... the 16" by itself can do 2x 4K displays easily. Just daisy chain them and leave the computer in clamshell.

This is what I’m doing at the moment.
Even with 1 browser tab open only, in clamshell. A YouTube video is enough to make the fans roar after the YouTube videos pushes the dGPU to 22w. (2x 4K in clamshell doing absolutely nothing is ~9w).
 

bill-p

macrumors 68030
Jul 23, 2011
2,929
1,589
That's interesting. Are you using Chrome by any chance?

With either my 34WK95U (5K) or the 43UD79 (4K) by themselves, Youtube in Safari uses 10-15W to display a full-screen 4K video for me. I guess I can try to daisy chain them again but I doubt that's going to cause much of a difference.

OdqijXr.png


You can also clearly see my fan speed and temperatures. It's less than 2000RPM and I honestly can't hear anything even when I have my ears right next to the MacBook.

The 5700XT in eGPU enclosure, on the other hand... is pretty dang noisy (it's a soft hum) even when it's idling. At full blast, it can drown out my Dyson.
 

XNorth

macrumors 6502
Feb 23, 2018
300
464
United States
The eGPU is nice for gaming... but aside from that, it's not that much better for video and photo editing. In fact, it's kinda unnecessary if gaming is not a consideration.

I second this. An eGPU will actually degrade the performance of the MBP 16” for video and graphics work.
 

throAU

macrumors G3
Feb 13, 2012
9,299
7,470
Perth, Western Australia
With either my 34WK95U (5K) or the 43UD79 (4K) by themselves, Youtube in Safari uses 10-15W to display a full-screen 4K video for me.

Nah, because Safari doesn't play 4k video in YouTube.

Check the actual YouTube stats (or click on the resolution changer), Youtube does not support h.265 for 4k video. You might be playing it on a 4k display, but it will be playing 1080p content if you're using Safari.

The only way to get 4k YouTube actually playing at 4k on a Mac is to use a non-safari browser.
 

kiburu

macrumors newbie
May 3, 2020
3
5
I’m wading in to add to that my MBP 16” has no unusual noisy fan and tempertures. It’s very quiet for everyday light use in dual display or clamshell.

My MBP gets noisy and higher temperatures only under heavy load.

My external display is the LG 34” 5K HDR connected directly (no dongle) via a Thunderbolt 3 cable that also charges the MBP. The discreet GPU is the Radeon 5500M 8GB. I’m using the latest beta OS, 10.15.5 Beta (19F72f).

The attached iStat Menus numbers and graphs show the wattage, fan speed, and temperatures of my MBP under different scenarios in which I use it.

USE: dual display, idle
GPU draw - 20 watts
Fan speed - 1840 rpm
Temp - 60° C
Fan noise - not audible from 12 inches/.3 meter

USE: dual display, YouTube 1080p60 video
GPU draw - 22 watts
Fan speed - 2200 rpm
Temp - 68° C
Fan noise - not audible from 112 inches/.3 meter

USE: external display only, Idle
GPU draw - 6 watts
Fan speed - 1840 rpm
Temp - 45-50° C
Fan noise - not audible from 12 inches/.3 meter

USE: external display only, Youtube video 1080p video
GPU draw - 10 watts
Fan speed - 2000 rpm
Temp - 60-65° C
Fan noise - not audible from 12 inches

USE: external display only, FCPX 4K timeline playback
GPU draw - 20-25 watts
Fan speed - 2500 rpm
Temp - 50-55° C
Fan noise - not audible from 12 inches/.3 meter

USE: dual display, FCPX 4K and 11 layers of unrendered basic text playback
GPU draw - 26-28 watts
Fan speed - 4800 rpm
Temp - 90-97° C
Fan noise - blowing and audible from 5 feet/1.5 meter

USE: external display only, FCPX 4K and 11 layers of unrendered basic text playback
GPU draw - 20-25 watts
Fan speed - 4600 rpm
Temp - 85-95° C
Fan noise - blowing and audible from 5 feet/1.5 meter

USE CASE CONCLUSIONS

Light use in clamshell mode
- video playback, streaming, web browsing and office use - the Radeon GPU draws 6-10 watts, the CPU temperatures range from 50-65°, the fan speed averages 2000 rpm. There is no audible fan noise.

Light load use in dual display - fan speed, temperature, and GPU power draw increase by about 10% that of light load clamshell mode. There is no audible fan noise.

Heavy load use in clamshell mode - GPU power draw, temps, and fan speed are twice that of a light load use. Fan noise is clearly audible from at least 5 feet/1.5 matter away.

Heavy load use in dual display - fan speed, temps, and power draw are increased by about 10%, and the fan noise is audible from at least 5 ft/1.5 meter.

Radeon power draw:
View attachment 911819

CPU temperatures:
View attachment 911822

Fan speed:
View attachment 911823
Same result with you, while my monitor is a Dell 2720Q connected via USB-C cable.
 

excessiveobserver

macrumors newbie
Nov 9, 2019
14
6
I've noticed for the past couple of days that while TG Pro works, it spawns some kernel_task issues that slow down the machine so much to the point of unusability, requiring me to restart the machine every now and then. The developer of TG Pro posted a theory about it on Reddit:



As an alternative, I tried using Turbo Boost Switcher and hand over fan control back to macOS (basically just using TG Pro exclusively for fan and core temp stats ). So far Turbo Boost Switcher is working well, the core temps dropped to the 60-70C range. The fan is slightly audible, yes, but not as irritating (and worrying) as when core temps were in the constant 80-90C range. It also helps to keep the Macbook screen at a 90 degree angle to prevent partial blocking of the rear exhaust. I have a dual 2K monitor setup, so that's three screens being driven by the 16" Macbook.

So far, so good. Will post updates as I go.

Now on my third day of using Turbo Boost disabler with two 2K monitors. Working pretty well and my temps and fans don't go into overdrive anymore, plus no more `kernel_task` hiccups. I've stopped using TG Pro.
 

bill-p

macrumors 68030
Jul 23, 2011
2,929
1,589
Nah, because Safari doesn't play 4k video in YouTube.

Check the actual YouTube stats (or click on the resolution changer), Youtube does not support h.265 for 4k video. You might be playing it on a 4k display, but it will be playing 1080p content if you're using Safari.

The only way to get 4k YouTube actually playing at 4k on a Mac is to use a non-safari browser.

Oh, sorry, I guess I should explain.

The video itself may not be 4K... but when you are "displaying" it on a 4K monitor, the content has to be upscaled to fit 4K resolution. So effectively, the GPU is displaying something at 4K even though the source material is not.

That's what I really meant.

I know Safari can't play 4K, but the problem is... if I'm playing 4K on Youtube in Chrome, then the extra heat comes from the CPU and not from the GPU at all.

But anyways, I did it just for fun:

BIZ73qU.jpg


Yeah, GPU usage maxed out at 20W. Using h264ify to force the same video to h.264 didn't help reduce GPU load. Certainly helped a bit with the fan, though.

fMEkTeq.jpg


Still 18W load. This is with a single monitor. So Chrome seems to stress the GPU a bit more than Safari.

I knew this ahead of time, that's why I asked if it was Chrome.

If Chrome was indeed used, then the fan noise is not just from the GPU heating up. It's from the CPU having to decode all those extra pixels.

So yeah, hopefully it's more clear now.
 
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mateusz_

macrumors newbie
Mar 2, 2020
5
1
I’m wading in to add to that my MBP 16” has no unusual noisy fan and tempertures. It’s very quiet for everyday light use in dual display or clamshell.

My MBP gets noisy and higher temperatures only under heavy load.

My external display is the LG 34” 5K HDR connected directly (no dongle) via a Thunderbolt 3 cable that also charges the MBP. The discreet GPU is the Radeon 5500M 8GB. I’m using the latest beta OS, 10.15.5 Beta (19F72f).

Your test results are very interesting. Did you experience the problem with hight temps and fan noise before installing 10.15.5 Beta? Would that mean Apple silently fixed the issue with the latest release?

Second question would be if your MBP 16” is a recent buy? Maybe there was some hardware issues and freshly manufactured devices don't suffer from the problem with temps and fan noise?
 
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bill-p

macrumors 68030
Jul 23, 2011
2,929
1,589
Im just askinng myself if the new 13" MDP will have the same noise issues... Im planning to use them 70/30 in closed lid with one external display attached...

If it's anything like my 2018 13", then... it'll be quiet most of the time. But still noticeably slower than the 16".

You'll find the external GPU, if you ever decide to get one, to be pretty loud, though. It'll make sure you know that it's on. All the time.
 

MrGimper

macrumors G3
Sep 22, 2012
9,063
13,014
Andover, UK
I’ve received my 2.3/64GB to replace my 2.4/32GB, both refurbs. Interesting to see that the 2.3 seems to idle some 10 degrees higher than the 2.4 and get hot with very little activity. I’ll let everything settle down but seems odd, especially as the 2.3 is a slower chip.
 
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