Yes but they are still doing the usual stall tactics of asking for logs to look into the issue. Which to me seems "we know theres an issue, but it has not been important enough to fix yet"
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(2019) 16" is HOT & NOISY with an external monitor! :(
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If you are asking about thermal / dGPU Problems with the 13"… It won't have these issues, since it doesn't have a dGPU that could ramp up to 18+W power consumption.
Exactly. The 13" will likely be silent when running external displays. Worse performance when video editing etc, yes. But general tasks the 13" 10th Gen Iris Graphics will be great.
Demand a refund. The issue qualifies as a major problem if the machine doesn't do what you asked of it, or what it was advertised to. The specs say it can run FOUR 4k displays. I don't think it's up to apple to decide that it's only a minor problem because it occurs only when used with a monitor, or because it's software. A major problem is also something that cannot be fixed in a reasonable period of time. No eta on a software fix that may never come is not reasonable. Keep bugging them and ask to speak to a different liaison and document their responses. ACCC won't do anything directly to resolve your case, but report your complaint and their response. Apple has been in trouble with ACCC before for misrepresenting consumer rights and I believe they are doing it again here by blanket denying this is a major problem. They'll investigate if enough people complain that apple are doing this.
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I can't speak for the other guy, but in my own dealings with Apple, they will not confirm anything about what engineering is doing or what they might release. And if there's not enough complaints and noise about an issue, I bet engineering will do nothing at all. Seems a few thousand messages on forums are not enough noise. We need a clear and easily reproducible test that shows not just noise and heat but degraded performance, like we had for the 2018 model, and get it into the news cycle.
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Well, personally, I find the statements a bit stretched. Just because the Radeon dGPU pulls 18+W (and only with the lid open or with the wrong settings), this a) is not a major problem and b) does not mean that the device cannot handle four 4K monitors. I'm pretty sure it can, and there are some videos about it. It's annoying that this energy consumption occurs, but I wouldn't call it a major problem. Increased heat and fan noise also don't qualify als major problems in my opinion: Otherwise we should return every HP Laptop we get in our office, these things sound like an Airbus taking off when plugged into their dock
About the forum: Apple does not read it and does not take it into account. There could be another 1000 pages to follow, they don't care.
As for the media: at least here in Europe they are well informed and have already reported about it. In February 2020, several portals, including heise online, a portal that is well known and respected in terms of technology, reported. It's just that the people probably don't care or most don't even use an external monitor. Plus you often don't have a device to compare, so how could you tell that a little bit more fan spin and heat occurs because the dGPU uses 18+W, which it shouldn't. I believe that 90% of the users aren't even that tech savvy to realize it could be due to the dGPU acting weird.
Well, I asked pretty much everyone in the company to submit some hints and complaints directly to AMD Radeon:
Maybe this will help - Hope always dies last!
Well, personally, I find the statements a bit stretched. Just because the Radeon dGPU pulls 18+W (and only with the lid open or with the wrong settings), this a) is not a major problem and b) does not mean that the device cannot handle four 4K monitors. I'm pretty sure it can, and there are some videos about it. It's annoying that this energy consumption occurs, but I wouldn't call it a major problem. Increased heat and fan noise also don't qualify als major problems in my opinion: Otherwise we should return every HP Laptop we get in our office, these things sound like an Airbus taking off when plugged into their dock
About the forum: Apple does not read it and does not take it into account. There could be another 1000 pages to follow, they don't care.
As for the media: at least here in Europe they are well informed and have already reported about it. In February 2020, several portals, including heise online, a portal that is well known and respected in terms of technology, reported. It's just that the people probably don't care or most don't even use an external monitor. Plus you often don't have a device to compare, so how could you tell that a little bit more fan spin and heat occurs because the dGPU uses 18+W, which it shouldn't. I believe that 90% of the users aren't even that tech savvy to realize it could be due to the dGPU acting weird.
Well, I asked pretty much everyone in the company to submit some hints and complaints directly to AMD Radeon:
Maybe this will help - Hope always dies last!
sorry fam this is definitely a major problem, I literally can't make video calls because my 6k+ laptops fans are blasting on full driving an external display due to defective hardware or drivers - the noise distortion is insane.
The GPU eats into the thermal overhead causing the CPU to throttle much sooner than it would otherwise, crippling performance.
I'm ok with loud fans and heat issues but when cheaper laptops with more powerful GPUs don't have this problem there is a serious issue.
Your HP laptops probably didn't cost as much as MacBooks, your comparison is like saying you don't have a problemw ith ROlls Royce cars having loud road noise inside the cabin because so do cheap Hyundais.
Not to mention the kernel panics. I agree, the dGPU is a major fault in itself with the panics and excess power draw all being caused by the dGPU.
relevant findings from discussions.apple.com
Alright, so it is a MacOS issue? Could be AMD drivers or some GPU profile going around that makes the GPU go cray cray in this moments.
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I did see that post and most of those folks didn't even comment on what profile/setup their fans were on.. Sounds like most of the folks don't really pay attention to this tech stuff.
Heck, who outside enthusiast users even monitor the fans?
Probably has been confirmed across various tests here somewhere in this thread, but does the 18W+ power draw happen across all or most refresh rates on the external monitor? Can you drop your refresh rate down a little, or slightly increase to a level where the power draw becomes something a little more reasonable?
Only with the lid open? I think it's reasonable to want to use the display and keyboard and touch id. "Wrong" settings? You mean, as opposed to the right ones which require users to run a 3rd party app to run non standard refresh rate?
Sorry, those excuses cannot stand. This is a nearly $5000 AUD machine and it is most definitely a major problem for me and many others. Ask my colleagues who see that I cannot participate in a long video conference call every week without issue.
I don't care about heat or fan noise. I care about performance. My machine cannot run with an external display and lid open without degrading CPU performance, in some cases so severely that it freezes up completely for 10 seconds at a time.
Most complaints here and I am guessing the reports your mentioned are focusing on heat and noise. The reports in 2018 that got actual results focused on performance.
The relatively few reports here that do focus on performance are anecdotal "works for me" or not. Hence, we need an easily repeatable stress test to demonstrate how severely and consistently performance is impacted.
Some reports talk about CPU dropping to 800mhz and kernel task hitting 1000%. That should never happen no matter how hard you work the CPU and GPU. The cooling system should handle both at full load at base frequency.
I've seen those numbers myself on my 2019 15" and not only in synthetic stress tests. Granted this thread is about the 16", but Apple gave me the same excuse (not a"major" problem, if it still happens after repair, it will have to be fixed with software, with zero promise about when it if that would happen) even after providing screen recordings on a fresh install with no non apple apps demonstrating the crazy performance drop. Nobody disputed the problem was occurring. They only dispute their obligation to do anything about it.
Regardless of it being hardware or software, it demonstrably doesn't perform as the specs indicate it should, and I would not have purchased had I known external displays cause this problem, and they cannot promise a fix in any reasonable amount of time.
Those are three descriptions that match the accc definition of a major problem, and it sounds like in not there only one getting this standard "admit no fault" response.
It is wrong that apple can make the final determination that all of those accc descriptions of a major problem do not apply just because it only happens with an external display (which specs say it can handle) or because it can maybe one day be fixed with a software patch (but no promises).
So if anyone in Australia is having a performance problem that impacts their ability to use the machine as they intended, I would urge them to document the response from apple and report it to ACCC.
If many people report that apple is responding in a consistent way that is contrary to our denying our consumer rights, the ACCC should step in again to reprimand apple.
It's unfair that one of the world's richest companies who charge a massive premium for their products can just encourage users to sue, knowing that would cost the customer much more then the cost of the product to have the issue heard in court.
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Check this earlier comment (#955). Seems pretty clear cut.
(2019) 16" is HOT & NOISY with an external monitor! :(
I had a MBP2019 15inch with Sonnet eGPU last year. I moved on to MBP 16 inch in November and continued using my eSonnet puck (ATI 570) with the new MBP. It was a great working experience. 2 weeks ago, my eGPU died and I had to plug in my monitors directly into the MBP for the first time. for...
forums.macrumors.com
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I don't have a 16" MBP, but from other posts the conclusion I've reached is that adjusting the refresh helps in clamshell mode but not with dual displays (internal + monitor).
OK, I just had a replacement delivered while still having the old one to play with, and my late-'16 MacBook Pro 15".
NOTE: My MBP 15" is 3.5 years old and likely has dust buildup limiting the effectiveness of the cooling, so this may not be an entirely fair test.
I tested playing 'standard' 1920x1080 @ 25fps content on my external monitor (2560x1080 60Hz) on all three machines separately, full screen on the external monitor.
The key thing is I left them running for 20 minutes, monitoring iStat Menus to see the GPU temperature and fan speeds change. None of the happy customers I quoted in my earlier post (@Quu, @am2am, @ascender, @robvas, @TimothyB) have explicitly confirmed that playing a 1080p video on YouTube for longer than a few minutes on an external monitor keeps their fans low and inaudible.
On all machines (both the 2 equivalent i9 MBP 16"s and the i5 MBP 15") the fans eventually spun up to around 2700/2500. That the speeds were about the same is merely a coincidence because the older model obviously has slightly different cooling design (fan size etc.). But the MBP 15" is just quieter at that speed probably because the fans are smaller and thus are pushing less air.
On all machines, the GPU was being moderated at 60 deg C no matter what you're doing. That's kind of expected if the fans are kicking in above base speed and aren't maxed out.
My conclusion: I think we all have equivalent machines, both happy and unhappy customers. GPU drawing 18W randomly based on screen resolution and refresh rate in clamshell is a bug. GPU drawing 18W all of the time with lid open and external monitor is expected design. Ambient temperature (19 deg vs. 26 deg) is going to affect how much the fans have to work to maintain 60 deg components), so those in hotter rooms/climates are going to see this problem more. And finally to demonstrate this you have to for example watch YouTube for more than just a few minutes - in my tests from a cold start it took EIGHT MINUTES for the GPU to hit 60 deg, at which point the fans start to step up from their minimum 1800rpm speed, GPU cools temporarily, then it hits 60 again and the fans step up again even more. Eventually in my 25-26 deg ambient temp room they settle on a most certainly audible 2700/2500rpm.
If any of the users @Quu, @am2am, @ascender, @robvas, @TimothyB could tell us what their ambient temperature is in their room and confirm that watching YouTube for say 15 minutes does stabilise the GPU temperature and fan speeds in iStat Menus then it would be pretty much conclusive evidence that people aren't just getting lucky with machines, they're getting lucky with conditions haha
I'm still on the fence about whether to return these and go Mac Pro... ugh.
Cheers all!
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- I'm pretty sure kernel panics coming back from standby is just a software bug and I hope 18W dGPU on idle is a bug as well, and maybe they will fix both in the next update.
- Excessive temperature from the dGPU and thermal throttle with the i9 is not a bug, it is an unbalanced hardware design. Apple is putting hardware they can't keep cool so we are paying for top components to get top performance just for a very limited period of time. The next step after throttle, people who suffer freezes and restarts, is just unacceptable.
Coming from a 2017 15.4", this MBP16 seems an improvement in performance, storage, screen and keyboard, with no prize increase at all, so is not that terrible. But I would appreciate a cooler dGPU (nvidia maybe) or a better cooling system to squeeze the i9 power without compromise stability.
Regards.
- Excessive temperature from the dGPU and thermal throttle with the i9 is not a bug, it is an unbalanced hardware design. Apple is putting hardware they can't keep cool so we are paying for top components to get top performance just for a very limited period of time. The next step after throttle, people who suffer freezes and restarts, is just unacceptable.
Coming from a 2017 15.4", this MBP16 seems an improvement in performance, storage, screen and keyboard, with no prize increase at all, so is not that terrible. But I would appreciate a cooler dGPU (nvidia maybe) or a better cooling system to squeeze the i9 power without compromise stability.
Regards.
I run my MacBook Pro 16 all day connected to a 4K external monitor. The fan never comes on unless I am working in Final Cut Pro. Then it will occasionally run when processing video.
So are you saying we're suffering the issues due to Apple putting top end hardware components into a laptop without a sufficient cooling system? Things like desktop DDR RAM instead of LPDDR and a dGPU? One of Apple's biggest marketing lines for the Macbook 16" was an improved thermal cooling architecture.
Just to be clear. The issue is not thermal. It's two folds:
1. People complaining that 18W causes extra heat and extra fan noise in their computers. They expect their 16" MacBook to be near silent when the lid is open and they are not doing that much work. This is fair. Note that if you are lucky and you found the right setup, the 16" in clamshell mode can trudge along at 5-7W while driving a 5K ultrawide monitor, and the fan almost never breaks past 2300RPM while using Safari to watch movies for hours on end.
2. When the dGPU is drawing 18-20W constantly, what happens is that the CPU can only scale to at most 80W (total combined power consumption 100W). 80W is not the max power consumption possible for the CPU. The CPU can actually reach 90W by itself. The same cooling system can easily accommodate this CPU state for at least 30 minutes from my testing, but this is only possible if the dGPU is drawing less than 10W. So it's not possible at all in the lid open + external monitor scenario. It's a power consumption problem, not necessarily a thermal one.
In fact, the 16" actually has the best cooling system I have seen in a Mac computer in a long time. I had a 2018 15" for work at one point and let's just say that was not up to par at all. The 16" feels like it's light years ahead.
Pretty much.
I saw someone else commenting on 'is it really an issue if someone just is bothered by the fans?'
Well - yes, at least to those who bought an MBP16 expecting the CPUs to have reasonable thermals and performance, versus someone who just likes to buy 'top end' but doesn't need or use it, etc.
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I'm not sure that's the case (GPU fault), unless there is zero workaround for running in multiple resolutions across screens, which is pretty basic stuff, and meanwhile the power consumption under Bootcamp or other Winter laptops is AFAIK, lower... ? Seems like a driver issue to me, although possibly not the only one. (e.g. Apple forcing dGPU use for any externals, etc.)
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Not in my experience, happens on Windows even with bootlegged newer Radeon drivers.
Under Bootcamp it's the same power consumption in my experience, it may be a driver issue buti t has to do with a quirk in the HDMI spec which requires a hearteat, don't fully understand the details but it's a well known issue with AMD cards even on desktop.
However to your point there was one user on the apple forums who had GPU heating issues even in clamshell mode, but he discovered running his external monitor at 144HZ (which it supported) actually stopped the GPU from overheating.
It's safe to say the AMD drivers are a hot mess.
So how many Radars/Feedback assistant tickets about this have been filed so far?
(And did those who filed them go back and took a look if they had been processed?)
(And did those who filed them go back and took a look if they had been processed?)
So got to spend most of yesterday evening on Windows 10 through bootcamp with the Dell Ultrasharp 24inch on extended mode and it's nice and quiet and only mildly warm above the Touch Bar. Wasn't doing anything too intensive though, just had two trading platforms running with various charts on each screen.
Will try some hunger applications again tonight on Windows 10. USB-C on the Dell Ultrasharp by the way.