If your workload is to run cinebench all day long then I get why you would be upset.
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2020 Air Heatsink Modification Thread
- Thread starter ilikewhey
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If your workload is to run cinebench all day long then I get why you would be upset.
I apologize to the people having to read this silly argument, but here's my reply, and then I'm out.
Bolanders, if we follow your logic as strictly as you want (if the product doesn't do the job, it's not the right tool, and you should know it), then this thread should not exist. Then anyone who has problems or suggestions should just get a different laptop. But here we are at page 30. Some products are not as good as they can be, and that's what we're discussing. We're not discussing whether it's smarter to criticize the flaws or give up and go to the store again.
Apple never mentioned in their marketing "please avoid watching 4K videos, that's for Professionals", so I expect this product to sit comfortably on my lap while I watch cats.
And yes, it's not the right laptop for me. But that's because it's poorly designed. And that's something I'd discover either by buying it and getting disappointed, or by reading long forum threads where people don't even agree.
At the same time I accept that it will definitely be the right product for many people. But that doesn't make it properly designed. An uncomfortable chair can be problem-free for many people.
Why poorly designed? It's a step between passive and active cooling, but not a good one. Active cooling is supposed to enable sustained loads, for longer time. The Air can't do that comfortably. And not for a technical or financial reason, but a marketing decision!
Have a look at the Nintendo Switch. It's a 300 dollar device with a similar power usage (slightly lower). It's much lighter and much more quiet. It's supposed to sustain prolonged loads, so it has active cooling. However, its active cooling is done right. And there's nothing shocking about it. It has more constraints than the Air but does a better job. It's lighter, smaller and cheaper, and manages to stay cooler and quieter. Technically the Air could have been like that.
Your car analogy is flawed. A proper analogy would be having your Accord climb a hill to get to a mountain resort. It's a heavier but totally expected load. Just like watching a 4K video or fixing a shaky cat clip. (720p would be painful as well when encoding a video, no need for 4K...)
Asking the laptop to do something that it's not designed for would be to expect Turbo boost to work for prolonged periods of time, outside the TDP. I'm not asking for that. I'm fine with a TDP of 9-12W. All I'm asking for is comfortable handling of the heat produced using the base CPU frequency for longer times (cause videos can be long).
Do you really need more exampled of loads that an Air should be able to handle? Your average non-Pro user could visit a website with lots of ads and animations that spikes their CPI usage. They might install an OS upgrade. They could even decide to have a video call with their family, and those 3 video streams on Hangouts can raise the CPU usage significantly. All pretty valid things for anyone to do, right? But a guy shouldn't do these things with the Laptop in his Lap, if he wants to keep his fertility. And many people will prefer to put on their headphones in a silent room with this marvel of a machine spinning up its fan.
Again, if you like your laptop, I'm fine with that, even happy for you. But that doesn't make it designed the way it should be. The driving factor is money, of course, and it will sell well, make lots of people happy, while still being poorly designed. The sales make it a successful product. That I hate. Because it's artificially crippled.
Bolanders, if we follow your logic as strictly as you want (if the product doesn't do the job, it's not the right tool, and you should know it), then this thread should not exist. Then anyone who has problems or suggestions should just get a different laptop. But here we are at page 30. Some products are not as good as they can be, and that's what we're discussing. We're not discussing whether it's smarter to criticize the flaws or give up and go to the store again.
Apple never mentioned in their marketing "please avoid watching 4K videos, that's for Professionals", so I expect this product to sit comfortably on my lap while I watch cats.
And yes, it's not the right laptop for me. But that's because it's poorly designed. And that's something I'd discover either by buying it and getting disappointed, or by reading long forum threads where people don't even agree.
At the same time I accept that it will definitely be the right product for many people. But that doesn't make it properly designed. An uncomfortable chair can be problem-free for many people.
Why poorly designed? It's a step between passive and active cooling, but not a good one. Active cooling is supposed to enable sustained loads, for longer time. The Air can't do that comfortably. And not for a technical or financial reason, but a marketing decision!
Have a look at the Nintendo Switch. It's a 300 dollar device with a similar power usage (slightly lower). It's much lighter and much more quiet. It's supposed to sustain prolonged loads, so it has active cooling. However, its active cooling is done right. And there's nothing shocking about it. It has more constraints than the Air but does a better job. It's lighter, smaller and cheaper, and manages to stay cooler and quieter. Technically the Air could have been like that.
Your car analogy is flawed. A proper analogy would be having your Accord climb a hill to get to a mountain resort. It's a heavier but totally expected load. Just like watching a 4K video or fixing a shaky cat clip. (720p would be painful as well when encoding a video, no need for 4K...)
Asking the laptop to do something that it's not designed for would be to expect Turbo boost to work for prolonged periods of time, outside the TDP. I'm not asking for that. I'm fine with a TDP of 9-12W. All I'm asking for is comfortable handling of the heat produced using the base CPU frequency for longer times (cause videos can be long).
Do you really need more exampled of loads that an Air should be able to handle? Your average non-Pro user could visit a website with lots of ads and animations that spikes their CPI usage. They might install an OS upgrade. They could even decide to have a video call with their family, and those 3 video streams on Hangouts can raise the CPU usage significantly. All pretty valid things for anyone to do, right? But a guy shouldn't do these things with the Laptop in his Lap, if he wants to keep his fertility. And many people will prefer to put on their headphones in a silent room with this marvel of a machine spinning up its fan.
Again, if you like your laptop, I'm fine with that, even happy for you. But that doesn't make it designed the way it should be. The driving factor is money, of course, and it will sell well, make lots of people happy, while still being poorly designed. The sales make it a successful product. That I hate. Because it's artificially crippled.
I wonder if thermal pads (as opposed to excessive amounts of thermal paste to fill the void) would work better with the design?
Something like these, cut to size: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00UYTTLI4/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Something like these, cut to size: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00UYTTLI4/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1
No the analogy is fine. You are making a conspiracy where one does not exist. The average non-Pro user is absolutely happy with this.
Design is spot on. Sorry you don't get that.
Design is spot on. Sorry you don't get that.
Just because the design isn't to what you (and others) consider ideal doesn't mean it isn't designed exactly how the product managers wanted it designed.
The MBA is one product in a multi-product lineup. There will be design choices made such that it doesn't overly cannibalize sales of the higher level models.
Take your uncomfortable chair - that may be exactly the sort of chair a shop owner may wish to use. Satisfactory for patrons to use while drinking their coffee or eating their pastry, but not so comfortable they stay all day nursing that one cup of coffee. While not designed how you think it should be, it may well be exactly what the shop owner wants.
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The complaints boil down to this: Apple could have designed the MacBook Air to be 2.8lbs and use the 15W chips that are in the Dell XPS and comparable Windows PCs (and presumably will be in the 2020 13/14” MacBook Pro). But instead they designed it to run the 10W processors that aren’t as capable. That’s really what it comes down to. All this talk about heat pipes, active cooling, etc. comes down to that.
I get it, and agree Apple could have made different design decisions. But it isn’t only for product segmentation. There are valid reasons for Apple making the decisions it did. Comparing it specifically to the Dell XPS 13, which uses the 15W chips and has a similar weight in a smaller footprint, it’s obvious both companies had to make compromises. They made different ones.
- The Dell XPS is faster (probably close to the upcoming base 13/14” MacBook Pro). However:
- The base screen is 1080p vs. 1600p for the MacBook Air. 4K is an option, but battery life is significantly lower in the 4K Dell XPS.
- The case is plastic vs. aluminum
- It uses a lower-end GPU.
- The Dell is $1199 for an i5/8/256GB vs $1099 for an i5/8/256GB configuration
- The base MacBook Air has a better screen, better graphics, and comparable battery life.
- The CPU is less powerful
- There is only one screen option
- The chassis does not get warm even if the CPU runs hot
- Lower the resolution of the screen (not likely for a company who advertises “Retina displays” for all its products)
- Reduce the battery life
- Accept a hotter chassis during normal operation
- Use a lighter, less premium case material
- Increase the price
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For me none. Want the price kept down and want the lightest laptop realistically possible with good battery life that I can throw my workload at. This things handles it.
Sublime description of the design and electronic castration of the MBA. I am 100% with you, you are an objective person and that is why you understand my discomfort at not being able to watch 4K videos on a machine of the year 1000 of €. It is clear that Apple is an elite brand but it is losing what it believed was its main trick, make good machines. With this of the refrigeration that I have suffered so much (even knowing that when they remove the confinement I will be able to return it) it is because in my Apple universe I could not accept when opening the cover such stupidity !!! It is a good castrated machine to heat up and go slow and hot. I could not allow that but my passion for electronics has made it clear that with a 0.5mm copper foil it is lowered several degrees to begin with.
Thank you for your opinion, greetings from the city / jail of Barcelona
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[QUOTE = "WickedPorter, publicación: 28385196, miembro: 746384"]
Me pregunto si las almohadillas térmicas (a diferencia de las cantidades excesivas de pasta térmica para llenar el vacío) funcionarían mejor con el diseño.
Algo así, cortado a medida: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00UYTTLI4/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1
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NO.
The 4K video issue is software, not hardware. It runs fine with h.265 content. But Apple is refusing to build VP9 support into macOS, even though the hardware supports it.
[QUOTE = "KPOM, publicación: 28385334, miembro: 505893"]
El problema del video 4K es software, no hardware. Funciona bien con contenido h.265. Pero Apple se niega a construir el soporte VP9 en macOS, a pesar de que el hardware lo admite.
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Well, for that I would have repaired the screen of my Pro Early 2015 that also does not reproduce 4k. That is misleading advertising !!! Playing 4K on a 2019 machine is supposed to be a must !! I did not know the codec defects and like me many will return it when they see that it is a toaster (not mine anymore) watching a video at 1440P.
Who would have thought that the largest company on the planet was unable to reproduce a video in 4K ...
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Look at this video, it is 4K and I see it perfect at 60º temp.
El problema del video 4K es software, no hardware. Funciona bien con contenido h.265. Pero Apple se niega a construir el soporte VP9 en macOS, a pesar de que el hardware lo admite.
[/CITAR]
Well, for that I would have repaired the screen of my Pro Early 2015 that also does not reproduce 4k. That is misleading advertising !!! Playing 4K on a 2019 machine is supposed to be a must !! I did not know the codec defects and like me many will return it when they see that it is a toaster (not mine anymore) watching a video at 1440P.
Who would have thought that the largest company on the planet was unable to reproduce a video in 4K ...
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Sorry it's not just a matter of codec ... it's a matter of Frames ... at 4K 60fps you can't ...
Look at this video, it is 4K and I see it perfect at 60º temp.
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About software vs hardware issue - It's true that playing 4K videos from YouTube hurts the machine for software reasons (no hardware-accelerated decoding of VP9). At the same time, it's unrealistic to expect all content on the Internet to be encoded with the perfect specifications for your specific hardware. Content should either play well, or now. However, in both cases the machine should handle it without becoming uncomfortably hot or loud. It's a super light laptop, so it's supposed to be comfortable in your lap.
About the XPS - I am not advocating for making the CPU faster at 15W. I'm OK with it being slower at 10W. The point is that it shouldn't make the case hot. Regardless of what content you're watching. And that's a cooling issue in this particular case.
Let's take a fan-less Chromebook as an example. I bought one for 300 dollars. It's much slower than the Air, of course. It can still play most 4K@30fps no-HDR videos though. It doesn't get hot at all, regardless of what I do with it. I could be pushing it to 100% on its two cores, and it would still be comfortable to hold.
About compromises - none are necessary. Do you know what the weight and size of a heat pipe are? Negligible at this performance class. Placing a heat pipe and moving some of the heatsink material to the fan would add almost no weight, and will take almost no space. Keep in mind that some companies place heat pipes inside smartphones...
Again, the target audience of these machines does not need super high performance. It needs a comfortable machine in any situation.
About the XPS - I am not advocating for making the CPU faster at 15W. I'm OK with it being slower at 10W. The point is that it shouldn't make the case hot. Regardless of what content you're watching. And that's a cooling issue in this particular case.
Let's take a fan-less Chromebook as an example. I bought one for 300 dollars. It's much slower than the Air, of course. It can still play most 4K@30fps no-HDR videos though. It doesn't get hot at all, regardless of what I do with it. I could be pushing it to 100% on its two cores, and it would still be comfortable to hold.
About compromises - none are necessary. Do you know what the weight and size of a heat pipe are? Negligible at this performance class. Placing a heat pipe and moving some of the heatsink material to the fan would add almost no weight, and will take almost no space. Keep in mind that some companies place heat pipes inside smartphones...
Again, the target audience of these machines does not need super high performance. It needs a comfortable machine in any situation.
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Except it doesn’t make the case hot. Not at all. Partly because Apple is NOT connecting the heat sink to the case. I have the 2020 Air and am running a CPU-intensive routine right now. The fans are running, but the case is just fine.
You need to read what this guy wrote:
"sdimitrov said:
If the Air had better cooling, lots of people (including me) would buy it instead of a Pro model."
Oh wait that is you. Tell yourself to read you.
I would take a 2020 MBA with my invention to get the power of a Pro ... at least very close ...
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[QUOTE = "AirBud, publicación: 28382294, miembro: 1213549"]
He estado siguiendo este hilo durante un par de días y me inspiraste a hacer algo similar.
¿Cuáles fueron las dimensiones de la cuña de cobre que usó para la parte empotrada del disipador térmico? Supongo que era de 20x20 mm, pero ¿qué tan profundo era el hueco en el disipador térmico y / o qué tan grueso era el calce que usaste? 0.5mm?
¿Y cuál crees que sería la mejor pasta térmica para usar para este mod? Arctic parece una marca popular, pero ¿hay algún tipo específico que sea mejor / recomendado?
Parece claro ahora que Apple (sin darse cuenta ...?) Hizo un disipador de calor inferior para la CPU / GPU. ¡Este proyecto parece una forma económica y fácil de aumentar el rendimiento en un 10% al tiempo que protege las partes internas del desgaste por calor!
[/CITAR]No 0,5 noooo es 0.05mm !!!
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Look how I get bored just buy heatsinks of those small rasperry and I put them to memory and to the T2 ... Also disassemble the cable that passes through the turbine to see if there is room for a small radiator ... when I have all done I will send a letter to Tim Cook saying that he does things like the ass !!!!
He estado siguiendo este hilo durante un par de días y me inspiraste a hacer algo similar.
¿Cuáles fueron las dimensiones de la cuña de cobre que usó para la parte empotrada del disipador térmico? Supongo que era de 20x20 mm, pero ¿qué tan profundo era el hueco en el disipador térmico y / o qué tan grueso era el calce que usaste? 0.5mm?
¿Y cuál crees que sería la mejor pasta térmica para usar para este mod? Arctic parece una marca popular, pero ¿hay algún tipo específico que sea mejor / recomendado?
Parece claro ahora que Apple (sin darse cuenta ...?) Hizo un disipador de calor inferior para la CPU / GPU. ¡Este proyecto parece una forma económica y fácil de aumentar el rendimiento en un 10% al tiempo que protege las partes internas del desgaste por calor!
[/CITAR]No 0,5 noooo es 0.05mm !!!
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Look how I get bored just buy heatsinks of those small rasperry and I put them to memory and to the T2 ... Also disassemble the cable that passes through the turbine to see if there is room for a small radiator ... when I have all done I will send a letter to Tim Cook saying that he does things like the ass !!!!
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I don't understand your confusion. Both the things I said are true.
With a better thermal solution:
Users who don't care about performance (1) AND users who need moderate performance (2) would be happier because of reduced noise and heat.
1 would be able to enjoy YouTube and Hangouts without having to listen to the fan. The only cost they would have to pay is 10-50 grams of heat pipe which is 1-4% of the weight of the laptop, and costs around 5-10 dollars.
2 would be able to work, compile, encode and do anything for a long time sustainably, without feeling that the machine is struggling. Keep in mind it's a relatively capable machine, especially the quad-core model (and imagine that without throttling). And yes, it's not as capable as a Pro model of course...
Why I would buy it instead of a Pro model? Because I don't need the full performance the Pro offers, and I want the lightest laptop I can get. Then again, I would be happier buying if I knew it was built well instead of limited intentionally.
Come on, this is becoming ridiculous... I'm done wasting my time
Cheers to the rational and friendly people here, good luck!
I actually agree with everything you said and thought that was an informative and non-crazy novella.
Apple is able to make products that can handle the thermal costs of powerful chips. Its competitor OEMs are too.
My experience with the 2020 i5 seems to be the same as many. 'Jesus, is it supposed to be... This hot? Why is it so loud? The same computer, last year's model, was nothing like this.' Then we come here and find other anecdotes that aren't mentioned in any reviews.
It seems like a no brainer that if you're doubling the power you'd need to somewhat alter how the heat generated by that power is managed and dissipated. For some, Apple's solution of a slightly bigger heat sink works.
For others, like me, it doesn't. Let me stress I'm not a 4k video editor (who the hell is using an MBA for that?!) - my most demanding program was Citrix and video calling. For 90% of the time I owned the i5 I'd just be wondering what the hell was going on. Two tabs in a browser and nothing else caused it to get to 80c, and be noticeably warmer than the 2019.
Nothing really to add other than this: literally the only reason I buy Macbook Airs is because my workload is so light, and because I really value cool, quiet laptops after dealing with many that were hot and loud. When the MBA lost its cool and quiet by default status, that's when I sent it back. When people started saying 'hey, maybe you should disable turbo boost when you don't need it', that's when I thought 'this is no longer the product for me and it's not worth my money and time modifying.'
To the modders, I wish you good luck and I hope you're able to get good results. If they're consistent and easy to replicate, I might try it one day. But someone should be able to watch a 720p video of some cats playing around and scroll through BBC news on this machine without worrying for their testicles. The 2020 i5 was not able to accomplish this in my week with it, and I tried everything short of cracking open the back panel and going to town with copper and Arctic Silver MX.
Not having to do this stuff is why I buy Airs.
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So is playing 1080p videos in Chrome Ok since Safari handle YouTube videos in 1080p? At low resolution does it make any difference whether you are watching in Chrome or Safari?
The volume of threads on this exact topic, here and on reddit, would indicate otherwise.
Watching Youtube or doing a video chat with family are tasks that any basic laptop should be able to handle without issues. When those basic (absolutely non-pro) tasks stress the system and create a lot of heat, that's a problem. Period.
Paying $1200+ on a laptop and receiving a machine that gets very hot/loud with those basic tasks is something people are allowed to be frustrated about.
In Chrome, you need to run an extension that will call for h.264 videos on Youtube. That will prevent VP9 from engaging and killing your battery life.
No, your average user won't know that... and so they'll use Chrome as if they don't know better and the new MacBook Air will blast its fan like crazy. You can thank Apple for this.
Just for comparison's sake, my 16" MacBook Pro... under Bootcamp, actually is completely quiet playing 4K60 videos in Chrome, versus the fans getting slightly loud (about 3500RPM) when playing the same videos in Chrome under Mac OS.
Kinda indicates that some people find it fine for their usage and some people don't. That's why the discussion is going on for so long - some people can't see a problem because of their expectations/usage, some people can't imagine others not seeing a problem based on their expectatiosn/usage.
For my subjective usage and experience, my expectations were very low. I thought it'd be hotter/louder than the 2019 (new chip, twice the cores), but not noticeably so. My expectations were low and I was still let down.
As this poster said,
'Do you really need more exampled of loads that an Air should be able to handle? Your average non-Pro user could visit a website with lots of ads and animations that spikes their CPI usage. They might install an OS upgrade. They could even decide to have a video call with their family, and those 3 video streams on Hangouts can raise the CPU usage significantly.
All pretty valid things for anyone to do, right? But a guy shouldn't do these things with the Laptop in his Lap, if he wants to keep his fertility. And many people will prefer to put on their headphones in a silent room with this marvel of a machine spinning up its fan.'
Thanks for sharing comparison using bootcamp.
So there are posts here saying playing 1080p videos in Safari doesn't blast the fan but Chrome does, so in MacOS, how does Safari handle 1080p videos that Chrome can't because Safari doesn't have VP9 codec?
So fan blasting has to do with codec and not the resolution of the video and if that's so then how is it done diferent;y in Chrome and Safari?
So there are posts here saying playing 1080p videos in Safari doesn't blast the fan but Chrome does, so in MacOS, how does Safari handle 1080p videos that Chrome can't because Safari doesn't have VP9 codec?
So fan blasting has to do with codec and not the resolution of the video and if that's so then how is it done diferent;y in Chrome and Safari?