I thought that Mercedes had previously dropped their appeal, but recent comments here mentioning it as still active - did they re-open the appeal?
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2022 Formula 1 Season thread
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The Appeal Withdrawal will not be official until Fridays meeting between Toto and Sulayem. This is my reading. IMO, Lewis is demanding Masi be removed or he leaves F1. I can understand his position.
Obviously F1 wants Lewis in 2022. Masi will be replaced IMO as he should be, but it’s the FIA being pressured by the most dominant, influential team in the history of F1. Let’s not be Politically Naive.
Lots of drama. Exactly what Liberty Media wants.
I'm disappointed FIA made the decision to not broadcast the team calls gong forward to the Race Director after the Abu Dhabi thing. I enjoyed the passive aggressiveness, the manufactured perception of what occurred, and the forced politeness of the discussions.
From all accounts of the sources I follow, Masi is a star of a race weekend. Extremely good at what he does, and the vast majority of it is not necessarily in the public view. That noted, many exceptional performers have lost their job over one decision.
I do miss the days when F1 didn't clear cars. A few local yellows with the car left in it's position, and then green. Safety of the drivers is paramount and I fully support that for sure. I'm aware of carnage of cars hitting abandoned cars, but no recollection of serious driver injuries. The Bianchi tragedy, was not due to abandoned cars. It was due to a JCB removing a car.
I appreciate much of what I'm writing comes across as whinging now. I have no response if you roll your eyes and say "let it go." The amount of time time, money, and risk of the entire F1 season down to something unexplained still has me raw. It hits me personally in the sense of the time I spent following sources of information, conspiring to find time to catch practices/qualifying/races, and the joyous ritual of watching a race. I'm usually bouncing off walls trying to find car release dates of the teams at this time even though it's just a livery exercise. Not particularly bothered about it right now.
For what it's worth, I also miss Bernie's way of handling a protest. If your protest was deemed unfounded, you'd be penalised for questioning the original decision. For example, if you protested a driver suspension and lost, the driver would be suspended additional time due to the protest. It stopped a lot of bad behaviour.
From all accounts of the sources I follow, Masi is a star of a race weekend. Extremely good at what he does, and the vast majority of it is not necessarily in the public view. That noted, many exceptional performers have lost their job over one decision.
I do miss the days when F1 didn't clear cars. A few local yellows with the car left in it's position, and then green. Safety of the drivers is paramount and I fully support that for sure. I'm aware of carnage of cars hitting abandoned cars, but no recollection of serious driver injuries. The Bianchi tragedy, was not due to abandoned cars. It was due to a JCB removing a car.
I appreciate much of what I'm writing comes across as whinging now. I have no response if you roll your eyes and say "let it go." The amount of time time, money, and risk of the entire F1 season down to something unexplained still has me raw. It hits me personally in the sense of the time I spent following sources of information, conspiring to find time to catch practices/qualifying/races, and the joyous ritual of watching a race. I'm usually bouncing off walls trying to find car release dates of the teams at this time even though it's just a livery exercise. Not particularly bothered about it right now.
For what it's worth, I also miss Bernie's way of handling a protest. If your protest was deemed unfounded, you'd be penalised for questioning the original decision. For example, if you protested a driver suspension and lost, the driver would be suspended additional time due to the protest. It stopped a lot of bad behaviour.
Very thoughtful post. I think that by the time the new season begins, you may find your interest rekindled, or at least I hope so. I find that I've largely forgotten about the season final at this point (except when I check in to this thread and follow the discussions here!).
Regarding Masi, I think your comment "many exceptional performers have lost their job over one decision" is spot on. It is so typical of how our society has evolved, on the one hand few are willing to admit fault or accept responsibility when they do make a honest mistake, and on the other hand there is this immediate jump to conclusions and judgements that doesn't allow for a thoughtful discussion of whatever has taken place. Very disturbing, really.
I'm very curious to see how Sulayem handles his new role at FIA. I'm trying to withhold judgement until some time has gone by and we can see how he will operate . . .
I can imagine Lewis is probably going to get a lot of flack from fans if this is true but I suppose it’s easy for any fans to comment, however these guys live and breath the sport. Lewis fought just as hard for that championship and spent 9 months working towards a goal that ultimately got decided via one man issuing an instruction over a radio with an unusual interpretation of a rule.
We would have had such a treat to see Max and Lewis spend 3-4 laps on fresh tyres fighting it out with one of them champion. We deserved that after such an intense season and what we got was an anticlimax. I definitely think any sportsman in Lewis’ shoes would question their future after that. As you say, the drama for liberty media was put before the correct way in which incidents were handled.
As much as I have enjoyed listening to this communication, I think it has also contributed to the bickering we see amongst fans who feel the need to judge competitive individuals in the heat of the moment. We never used to hear this radio transmission and I in think maybe opinions of past legends might be a bit different if we did. The conversations between Toto and Masi in Abu Dhabi have unfortunately damaged the perceptions for some of the sport and maybe we don’t need to hear this going forward even if they are very interesting.
There was some strange instructions from Masi though and not just Abu Dhabi. His negotiation with Christian Horner as to what type of penalty Red Bull ‘would prefer’ was bizarre in the extreme I thought. Never have I seen a team asked how they’d like to be punished rather than allowing the stewards to follow the sporting code. I think the pressure to give audiences a close end to the season was prioritised over the actual racing. It’s not a complete shock that the FIA have decided to have a reshuffle after the furore we have seen across the F1 community and media in the last month.
I personally hope that Lewis and Mercedes are not forcing the FIA's hand in regards to Masi.
And to what end? If they believed they had a real chance to have the FIA Court of Appeals to declare Lewis the WDC because he was ahead when the Safety Car was deployed then why not push said appeal?
I personally don't see what the upside would be for either the team or for Lewis if it was revealed that they deliberately tried to (effectively) blackmail the FIA. People half-jokingly referred to the FIA as "Ferrari International Assistance" during the 2000s because they so often seemed to bend things to support the team and Michael Schumacher, but this sounds like the team and driver are just looking for revenge and the FIA is caving to them to keep them happy and in F1.
And if the FIA caves to Mercedes, will they then cave to Ferrari? Or Red Bull? And what of the other teams? If the FIA shows they can be directly influenced by the largest factory teams, how does that impact their dynamic with the sport?
And what of Lewis? Yes, IMO he was likely robbed by the decision to have a Last Lap Green, but one lap does not a season make. Lewis raced like a Champion to overcome the deficit he had going into Silverstone, but what if it was Lewis that had DNF'd at Silverstone and Max had won? His lead would very likely have been insurmountable for the remainder of the season. I am sure many a Max fan believes that Lewis was at fault for that collision and "justice was served" when Max passed him at Abu Dhabi.
And let's be real - this is not the first time the WDC has been decided on a single call. As FIA President, Jean-Marie Balestre favored Prost over Senna because Prost was French and I firmly believe he used the Japanese Grand Prix events to deny Senna the 1989 WDC in favor of Prost. And Schumacher should have been disqualified from the Australian Grand Prix in 1994 for taking out Hill.
And to what end? If they believed they had a real chance to have the FIA Court of Appeals to declare Lewis the WDC because he was ahead when the Safety Car was deployed then why not push said appeal?
I personally don't see what the upside would be for either the team or for Lewis if it was revealed that they deliberately tried to (effectively) blackmail the FIA. People half-jokingly referred to the FIA as "Ferrari International Assistance" during the 2000s because they so often seemed to bend things to support the team and Michael Schumacher, but this sounds like the team and driver are just looking for revenge and the FIA is caving to them to keep them happy and in F1.
And if the FIA caves to Mercedes, will they then cave to Ferrari? Or Red Bull? And what of the other teams? If the FIA shows they can be directly influenced by the largest factory teams, how does that impact their dynamic with the sport?
And what of Lewis? Yes, IMO he was likely robbed by the decision to have a Last Lap Green, but one lap does not a season make. Lewis raced like a Champion to overcome the deficit he had going into Silverstone, but what if it was Lewis that had DNF'd at Silverstone and Max had won? His lead would very likely have been insurmountable for the remainder of the season. I am sure many a Max fan believes that Lewis was at fault for that collision and "justice was served" when Max passed him at Abu Dhabi.
And let's be real - this is not the first time the WDC has been decided on a single call. As FIA President, Jean-Marie Balestre favored Prost over Senna because Prost was French and I firmly believe he used the Japanese Grand Prix events to deny Senna the 1989 WDC in favor of Prost. And Schumacher should have been disqualified from the Australian Grand Prix in 1994 for taking out Hill.
We've all read that Lewis' future hinges on the outcome of the FIA investigation into the clusterfvck that was Abu Dhabi. Now I read that the FIA won't release the results of said investigation until two days prior to the opening race. Do they really need another two month to figure out who did what, or are they delaying the release of findings to keep Lewis hanging and prevent his premature retirement? Another option: they're trying to find a way to gracefully, quietly remove Masi and otherwise retain some dignity and save face in the aftermath of a total dumpster fire of race management.
I just can't wait for the fourth installment of "Drive to Survive" on Netflix. Too bad it'll likely be another two months til we see it....
I just can't wait for the fourth installment of "Drive to Survive" on Netflix. Too bad it'll likely be another two months til we see it....
If you want answers go to Liberty Media. They control the strings of F1, and the FIA at least on this one.
I've seen two stories now and both have angered me.
First are reports that Mercedes' and Lewis told the FIA Lewis would only drive this year if they sacked Masi and another person not sure who, so they struck a deal with the FIA for that to happen.
And the second one is they may strip Max of his title and give it to Lewis depending on their investigation.
I hope neither are true as I would be done with the sport if they are, Mercedes and Lewis have absolutely no right to dictate who the FIA hire and fire.
And the FIA have no right to strip Max of his win.
I don't see why they are investigating but it seems they are doing so. They need to change their wording of their rules and tighten them up more then anything.
But we will see what happens I guess? Still the BBC story is reporting Lewis won't return to racing till he see's the outcome of this inquiry. I hope he's not expecting to be given the win.
It is sad this is hanging over the sport now. They should have handled it all last year and if they wanted to sack Masi done it then. We want to look towards a new season with new rules and new cars, not to Lewis still dithering if he wants to race or not and investigations going on.
First are reports that Mercedes' and Lewis told the FIA Lewis would only drive this year if they sacked Masi and another person not sure who, so they struck a deal with the FIA for that to happen.
And the second one is they may strip Max of his title and give it to Lewis depending on their investigation.
I hope neither are true as I would be done with the sport if they are, Mercedes and Lewis have absolutely no right to dictate who the FIA hire and fire.
And the FIA have no right to strip Max of his win.
I don't see why they are investigating but it seems they are doing so. They need to change their wording of their rules and tighten them up more then anything.
But we will see what happens I guess? Still the BBC story is reporting Lewis won't return to racing till he see's the outcome of this inquiry. I hope he's not expecting to be given the win.
It is sad this is hanging over the sport now. They should have handled it all last year and if they wanted to sack Masi done it then. We want to look towards a new season with new rules and new cars, not to Lewis still dithering if he wants to race or not and investigations going on.
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I don’t think Lewis or anybody involved in the sport wants to see Max stripped of his title. Masi being sacked and a restructuring exercise is the best option. I don’t think the rules need tightening as they are clear. They just need a RD and team behind him that follow them correctly. Nobody wants to go into next year without the events of Abu Dhabi being addressed as it could just be a complete waste of everybody’s time. Teams invest huge amounts of money and effort and if results are dictated by media companies influencing the governing body, then F1 needs to take a long hard look at itself. The fallout from Abu Dhabi has been damaging, so the FIA have to address it and soon.
Absolutely agree. We just need the rules to be followed not made up as they go along. Last year is done in terms of titles. I believe Lewis will be on the grid in March. Just because something is reported doesn’t mean it’s true. If he was retiring he’d have announced it already (presumably as he promoted his next project(s)). Anyway looking forward to less talk and more action on the track this year. Hope the new car designs provide that. Testing isn’t too far away.
The rules are not clear though are they, because Masi interpreted them as they were open to interpretation as Christian Horner stated with words of ‘any’ instead of ‘all’ etc. hence why the stewards backed Masi at the time. And if Masi goes then shouldn’t the stewards go also agreed with his decisions? They cannot single out one person here, because it’s basically a witch hunt when several were involved at the time.
I don’t think theirs been any fallout or damage. But I think Lewis seemingly dictating what the governing body does with threatening to not race IS damaging, no single driver should have that command over the entire sport. Their are legal processes to follow I’m sure and they should leave it publicly at that.
I was referring more to restarting the race one lap early than is stated in the regulations. Obviously the decision to left a few cars through instead of all was bizarre. That interpretation where Masi thought ‘any’ could be interpreted as ‘the ones he wanted’ was also poor judgement on his part. Yes, the steward panel were also at fault, but Masi made some howlers last season besides Abu Dhabi.
If you haven’t seen any fallout then I can’t really understand that. It’s been analysed throughout the F1 press over the last month and Europe wide, not just the biggest publications in Britain. We’ve had a lot of opinions from figures not affiliated with Mercedes’, Lewis, who have been damning of the handling of the last race. If it hadn’t damaged the sport, the FIA would never have stated early in that it would be investigated and the reshuffling we see now wouldn’t be taking place.
Really don’t want to get into this AGAIN, but Christian is obviously going to see things with his bias (as would Toto). But the rules were interpreted in a different way in that race than all the others. That’s why we are all up in arms about it.
I only raised it as it seemed to be the crux of the matter, and Horner raised a very good point with it. And it seemed to be why the stewards backed Masi up.
Perhaps we need a separate thread for this, if it drags on.
I haven't been watching any F1 news, and I thought it was done and dusted as Mercedes dropped their complaint and the FIA said it would look into it. I didn't think Lewis would still be complaining about it, let alone seemingly threatening the FIA over it.
As for the howlers made, yes their were. But that was beneficial for BOTH Mercedes and RB, and was a result as stated by the presenters multiple times if the teams and drivers requesting to be allowed to race more.
So it will be interesting to see what 'let us race' results in this season. I can't wait! So long as they don't seem to bow to Lewis.
But it seems drama is the name of the game under this new ownership.
Anyway perhaps we need a new thread for all this?
Well its been constantly in the F1 news over the last month, but if you haven't been following it, then thats that.
I didn't say the howlers were only favouring one team. This is part of the reason Masi has been under criticism as he appears to struggle under pressure, regardless of who is involved. I haven't seen any evidence that Lewis is complaining about Abu Dhabi either. He has been almost silent publicly and opted out of all his scoial media platforms. If he is pursuing it behind the scenes through his team, then thats his prerogative as this is his career and has more of an interest for us to judge.
The 'let us race' commitment shouldn't change for this season and the teams are in agreement on that. Why would they bow to Lewis? Strange comment. This percpetion Lewis is looked after by the FIA is complete tripe. He benefitted at times from inconsistent rulings last year but so did Max. People seem to forget Masi was evidently under pressure not to go too hard on Max in Saudi and even had an aired conversation with Horner negotiating the type of penalty Max could receive after he aggressively forced Lewis off the circuit for the successive time. That is even before the last lap debacle that handed the title to him. Its just a situation that needs to be resolved. We had years of the FIA getting involved to favour Ferrari whereever possible because Luca di Montezemolo was threatening to pull out of the sport every 3 races. We got to a point under Jean Todt where the corruption was cleaned up and then last season we encountered a new level of incompetence. Maybe Liberty Media are too involved at this level, but hopefully this has been recognised now as the sport has had a negative bashing since the season finale.
I don't think we need a separate thread to discuss one topic. Its Formula One and current pre-season news, much like we don't have separate threads for pre-season testing or car launches. There is enough going on for people here to pick and choose what they want to discuss and thats been the way for the past 10 years here to my knowledge.
I think we all know what happened last season and each of us may be happy or unhappy with how it unfolded. We don't need to keep going over the events I suppose, but the outcome of the FIA's investigation is current news.
Stewarding at the Formula One level does need to be looked at, IMO. I really dislike them taking hours, even days, to make rulings for on-track infringements and then retroactively applying penalties (like grid space drops) that can (and have) directly influence(d) the outcome of the next race.
If something is referred to them, they need to make a decision within 15 minutes of said referral. If it happens with less than 15 minutes to go in the race, then they need to provide it within one hour of the race's conclusion.
Not sure if your opinion is correct here. What evidence do you have that Masi was under pressure to be soft on Max? He may have awarded some decisions Max's way, but why say he was under pressure to do so?
And the BBC are reporting Lewis is waiting for the outcome of the investigation before he agrees to race this year or not.
Lots of stories seem to back this up.
Anyway Aston Martin have appointed Krack? As team principle.
Aston Martin appoint Mike Krack as team principal
Former BMW motorsport boss Mike Krack will play a "central and leading role" at Aston Martin, says chairman Lawrence Stroll.
www.bbc.co.uk
Another discrepancy I don't see commented upon: It had been determined you had to give up a position, that meant you could not re-take the position for two corners. This goes back to a race at Spa 2008? (which I was there!) where Lewis gained an advantage, let the car pass him (Raikkonen?) , and immediately overtook the position. My recollection is Lewis took the checkered flag and was handed a time penalty making Raikkonen the winner.
This makes nonsense of the straight line crash which appeared to be based on jockeying for position over the DRS line. That is, getting the DRS advantage wouldn't have mattered because you couldn't re-take the position for two corners.
That accident also questioned the concept of sportsmanship. Not that the accident happened, but the complete denial of Max braking. Playing to the final whistle is one thing. Trying to sell a porky, when you have telemetry and know FIA has it is an entirely different situation.
For those thinking I playing favourites here, Lewis deserves criticism for not passing quicker. That noted, he had no radio guidance what was happening.
This makes nonsense of the straight line crash which appeared to be based on jockeying for position over the DRS line. That is, getting the DRS advantage wouldn't have mattered because you couldn't re-take the position for two corners.
That accident also questioned the concept of sportsmanship. Not that the accident happened, but the complete denial of Max braking. Playing to the final whistle is one thing. Trying to sell a porky, when you have telemetry and know FIA has it is an entirely different situation.
For those thinking I playing favourites here, Lewis deserves criticism for not passing quicker. That noted, he had no radio guidance what was happening.
Agreed, let's hope this year they make them a bit faster rather then say they'll review the incidents after the race.
Just an FYI drivers have a clear visual indicator in their steering wheels I believe of yellow flags plus their are clear signs on 'most' of the tracks indicating yellow flags, especially down the straight, so he didn't need anyone to tell him a yellow flag was deployed.
As for the two corner rule no idea. I guess they removed it last year?
I guess we need to move on from it and see what the investigation finds.
I guess we won't see any new cars till next month? I'm quite keen to see the new car designs. A lot riding on Mr Brawn's ideas. Wonder how the tire wear will be impacted with the new wheel size.
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I suspect pit stops might be a little slower with bigger wheels? But I do hope for close racing.
Then they can drop DRS. Makes it boring. The car following has too much advantage already. When they can (theoretically) follow through the corners closer, passing will be far too easy. I’d rather see cars passing up the inside on the bend. Not pulling out and passing with ease.