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A wealth of knowledge? No, Neither Lewis or Fernando are aiding in the development, if this was the case, then surely by this point in the 2020-2025 season of car development, they would be 1st to 3rd every race, not dnf and 3rds on the podium...Further proof is that in 2021 Lewis lost the title in Baku as a result of a badly positioned button.. Who chose that position? Who uses that button on a regular button, some PHD engineer?? So how did all of his titles, and decades of experience aid in 2021?? It harmed him..

Not sure how much the pensioners contribute.. Doubt it is much.. It shows..
I think you are missing the point. A driver can aid in the cars development by providing feedback on what the car needs or doesn’t need. They can’t actually design and develop the car themselves.
Referring to Alonso and Lewis as pensioners is insulting and offensive. We have all seen drivers carrying on for to long where clearly they don’t have ‘it’ anymore.
I wouldn’t put either Lewis or Alonso in that camp by a long way.
 
A wealth of knowledge? No, Neither Lewis or Fernando are aiding in the development, if this was the case, then surely by this point in the 2020-2025 season of car development, they would be 1st to 3rd every race, not dnf and 3rds on the podium...Further proof is that in 2021 Lewis lost the title in Baku as a result of a badly positioned button.. Who chose that position? Who uses that button on a regular button, some PHD engineer?? So how did all of his titles, and decades of experience aid in 2021?? It harmed him..

Not sure how much the pensioners contribute.. Doubt it is much.. It shows..

You are pretty new to F1 aren’t you. The drivers actually assist in the car development all year long. It is a ‘team’ effort, and it must have escaped you how bad the Mercedes was last year and this year it won a few podiums, and Alonso has won several this year. Yes the pensioners seem to know what they are doing.
 
I think you are missing the point. A driver can aid in the cars development by providing feedback on what the car needs or doesn’t need. They can’t actually design and develop the car themselves.
Referring to Alonso and Lewis as pensioners is insulting and offensive. We have all seen drivers carrying on for to long where clearly they don’t have ‘it’ anymore.
I wouldn’t put either Lewis or Alonso in that camp by a long way.
His insults and Hate was his point, it's all people like him have.
 
A wealth of knowledge? No, Neither Lewis or Fernando are aiding in the development, if this was the case, then surely by this point in the 2020-2025 season of car development, they would be 1st to 3rd every race, not dnf and 3rds on the podium...Further proof is that in 2021 Lewis lost the title in Baku as a result of a badly positioned button.. Who chose that position? Who uses that button on a regular button, some PHD engineer?? So how did all of his titles, and decades of experience aid in 2021?? It harmed him..

Not sure how much the pensioners contribute.. Doubt it is much.. It shows..
What on earth are you on about? 🤣
 
Apparently, Horner seems to insist Perez will be driving for Red Bull in 2024. Guess there is no point in watching 2024, when the driver in the other rocketship is trash.

All Max has to do next year, is just show up and collect his trophy, while Perez is fighting with Lewis and Alonso in much slower cars.
Red Bull also insisted that Gasly would be given the year, before dumping him during the summer break. They were publicly backing Alex as well and demoted him to a reserve, during which year Horner was saying that he deserved to be on the grid - just not in one of their cars, apparently.

That being said, a part of me thinks that Ricciardo’s injury may be Checo’s saviour. I’m not sure they could cope with Verstappen and Tsunoda in the same team, given that they both have a propensity for swearing at their engineer when things go a little wrong with the car. If Red Bull are indeed going with Ford PU’s going forward and Aston Martin with Honda, Yuki may land there.

Ricciardo may be the new Alonso in terms of bad career moves. His leaving Red Bull I could understand, but the timing was in hindsight terrible. If he sensed that Red Bull were backing Max as #1, then categorically there was going to be no fair shot at a championship for him in the way that there is in the second Mercedes seat. He went to the next best team for 2019 - Renault - and a year later Ferrari would hire the driver who had been ‘the best of the rest’ during that season. Had Ricciardo either remained at Red Bull for one more year (I’m guessing Ferrari would have been interested in hiring him had he made it known that he was interested in a team change) or Renault remained a better car than the McLaren, he’d probably have got the drive instead of taking the seat that Sainz had vacated. He didn’t gel with the McLaren for whatever reason and is now reduced to accepting #2 at Red Bull at best. There’ll be orders in that situation and he’ll have to obey them and hope that a seat at Mercedes or Ferrari comes up (and Lando is sure to be first in the queue.) Red Bull will feel that he owes them because they were good enough to give him an opportunity after his stock took a nosedive, good enough to take him back after he walked out on them. Alpine aka Renault opted not to do so even after they lost both of the drivers that they had wanted.

Back to Checo, while I believe Daniel could do well again, his injury has meant that he hasn’t yet done enough mileage to prove that. Mexico was great, but then they also hired Nyck de Vries off of the back of a not dissimilar performance. Brazil was unfortunate, but I believe it was no coincidence that all three who were able to continue running after being impacted by the first lap incident stayed at the rear - Ricciardo, Hulkenberg and Piastri. I think if Daniel hadn’t been injured and George’s car was selected for a plank inspection instead of Lewis’s, Perez would have lost 2nd in the championship and he would be out, with Liam Lawson taking the Alpha Tauri seat.

While the car is a rocketship, it doesn’t matter whether Max’s team mate is able to perform the rear gunner role or not. Verstappen couldn’t hope to compete in 2019 and 2020 because he didn’t have that, while if Bottas had just been sitting in Verstappen’s pit window in Abu Dhabi 2021, Hamilton would have taken the title regardless of the direction Masi gave regarding a restart, withdrawal of the safety car and the unlapping of lapped cars. Perez has had a bad year, but he has so far stepped up at the important moments.
 
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Red Bull also insisted that Gasly would be given the year, before dumping him during the summer break. They were publicly backing Alex as well and demoted him to a reserve, during which year Horner was saying that he deserved to be on the grid - just not in one of their cars, apparently.

That being said, a part of me thinks that Ricciardo’s injury may be Checo’s saviour. I’m not sure they could cope with Verstappen and Tsunoda in the same team, given that they both have a propensity for swearing at their engineer when things go a little wrong with the car. If Red Bull are indeed going with Ford PU’s going forward and Aston Martin with Honda, Yuki may land there.

Ricciardo may be the new Alonso in terms of bad career moves. His leaving Red Bull I could understand, but the timing was in hindsight terrible. If he sensed that Red Bull were backing Max as #1, then categorically there was going to be no fair shot at a championship for him in the way that there is in the second Mercedes seat. He went to the next best team for 2019 - Renault - and a year later Ferrari would hire the driver who had been ‘the best of the rest’ during that season. Had Ricciardo either remained at Red Bull for one more year (I’m guessing Ferrari would have been interested in hiring him had he made it known that he was interested in a team change) or Renault remained a better car than the McLaren, he’d probably have got the drive instead of taking the seat that Sainz had vacated. He didn’t gel with the McLaren for whatever reason and is now reduced to accepting #2 at Red Bull at best. There’ll be orders in that situation and he’ll have to obey them and hope that a seat at Mercedes or Ferrari comes up (and Lando is sure to be first in the queue.) Red Bull will feel that he owes them because they were good enough to give him an opportunity after his stock took a nosedive, good enough to take him back after he walked out on them. Alpine aka Renault opted not to do so even after they lost both of the drivers that they had wanted.

Back to Checo, while I believe Daniel could do well again, his injury has meant that he hasn’t yet done enough mileage to prove that. Mexico was great, but then they also hired Nyck de Vries off of the back of a not dissimilar performance. Brazil was unfortunate, but I believe it was no coincidence that all three who were able to continue running after being impacted by the first lap incident stayed at the rear - Ricciardo, Hulkenberg and Piastri. I think if Daniel hadn’t been injured and George’s car was selected for a plank inspection instead of Lewis’s, Perez would have lost 2nd in the championship and he would be out, with Liam Lawson taking the Alpha Tauri seat.

While the car is a rocketship, it doesn’t matter whether Max’s team mate is able to perform the rear gunner role or not. Verstappen couldn’t hope to compete in 2019 and 2020 because he didn’t have that, while if Bottas had just been sitting in Verstappen’s pit window in Abu Dhabi 2021, Hamilton would have taken the title regardless of the direction Masi gave regarding a restart, withdrawal of the safety car and the unlapping of lapped cars. Perez has had a bad year, but he has so far stepped up at the important moments.
There's a lot of ifs and buts in there. I think that the brutal reality for Ricciardo, is that he had his chance at RB, and Max turned out to be the better driver. Ricciardo had impressed by doing better in the DWC than 4x Champion Vettel, but Vettel was disillusioned and fed-up, rather than Ricciardo being a better driver. Danny flattered to deceive really. he's an excellent driver, just not absolute top class.
 
With good reason as it was a bit of a mess considering the years prior. Mike Elliot is a highly skilled aerodynamicist and there were some serious flaws with that car, even if it looked one of the nicest cars on the grid that year. He had a fresh brief under brand new regulations after his promotion to technical director in May 2021, and I’d imagine even he was disappointed with his leadership. I know he was instrumental in all of their past championships so it’s sad he is leaving completely.
I agree, the car looked great. If it had worked out on the track, he would have been heralded for the design breakthrough.

I can remember other "breakthroughs" in design at other teams, that did not work out in practice. McLaren, Ferrari, and wow...remember Arrows? That's been a while. :)
 
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Landro keeps running his own race...have to give McLaren credit. They've produced a car that can pressure Max at times.
 
Landro keeps running his own race...have to give McLaren credit. They've produced a car that can pressure Max at times.

And showing that all is not lost if your car is trash at the start of the year; people were saying that Daniel would be laughing that he was being paid not to drive it.

Knowing Lando’s luck, the one week that Max’s car fails is the week that he isn’t running P2.
 
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8 podiums for Alonso this year! Early on I felt like he'd be up there even more than that!

If only. But the reason he isn’t is to do with the car’s development rather than being passed it.

Perversely, Aston rolled back to their original spec (as in dropped most of their updates) for Brazil and the car clearly performed the better for it. So seems to be not an issue of lack of development over the season, but an issue of incorrect development over the season.


Red Bull also insisted that Gasly would be given the year, before dumping him during the summer break. They were publicly backing Alex as well and demoted him to a reserve, during which year Horner was saying that he deserved to be on the grid - just not in one of their cars, apparently.

That being said, a part of me thinks that Ricciardo’s injury may be Checo’s saviour. I’m not sure they could cope with Verstappen and Tsunoda in the same team, given that they both have a propensity for swearing at their engineer when things go a little wrong with the car. If Red Bull are indeed going with Ford PU’s going forward and Aston Martin with Honda, Yuki may land there.

I do think Yuki has a very good chance of ending up at Aston Martin in 2026 - either replacing a retired Alonso or Lance.


(Ricciardo) didn’t gel with the McLaren for whatever reason and is now reduced to accepting #2 at Red Bull at best.

Over the past few years the McLaren has required a very specific driving style to get any performance out of, and Daniel refused to adapt to said style and struggled with his engineers to force the car to fit his driving style, which it never did. Norris was able to adapt his driving (within reason) and this year McLaren has been able to make the car more drivable then it was during Daniel's time there, and that has helped Norris as he can drive a bit more how he likes. Piastri, being new to the team, I presume just drove the way the car demanded. :)


Back to Checo, while I believe Daniel could do well again, his injury has meant that he hasn’t yet done enough mileage to prove that. Mexico was great, but then they also hired Nyck de Vries off of the back of a not dissimilar performance. Brazil was unfortunate, but I believe it was no coincidence that all three who were able to continue running after being impacted by the first lap incident stayed at the rear - Ricciardo, Hulkenberg and Piastri. I think if Daniel hadn’t been injured and George’s car was selected for a plank inspection instead of Lewis’s, Perez would have lost 2nd in the championship and he would be out, with Liam Lawson taking the Alpha Tauri seat.

Seems reasonable to me.
 
If only. But the reason he isn’t is to do with the car’s development rather than being passed it. Still I expect he’d have taken the 8 podiums at the start of the season.
Completely agreed. I'd hoped that Aston Martin would continue to develop the car and make it more successful, but they haven't been able to.
 
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Saw an article where Max said that Checo almost cost him the race. Turns out Max was watching the Alonso/Perez battle on the jumbo trons and almost ran off the course. Too much time on your hands, keep your eye on the road.;)
 
Why is it that everything is taken so seriously... It is not like Lewis/Fernando/Bottas are in some old age home playing lawn bowls and need enemas once a day... What I don't see is all the experience gained by Lewis etc translating into wins.. If anything Lando and whathisname, Pastry, they are doing more..Mclaren doing better than both Mercs and AM combined, at least it seems that way, and Lando is how many years younger than Lewis..

So a lack of experience helps or hinders??
 
Why is it that everything is taken so seriously... It is not like Lewis/Fernando/Bottas are in some old age home playing lawn bowls and need enemas once a day... What I don't see is all the experience gained by Lewis etc translating into wins.. If anything Lando and whathisname, Pastry, they are doing more..Mclaren doing better than both Mercs and AM combined, at least it seems that way, and Lando is how many years younger than Lewis..

So a lack of experience helps or hinders??

Drivers can only make do with what they are given and formula one cars are hugely complex pieces of engineering. The drivers are advising on how they want the car to feel and behave, they don’t tell their design teams and engineers how to set the car up. I can’t imagine Lewis or Lando saying “can you make sure there is 30 daN extra of load across the back of the car, 10 degrees more rear wing and I’ve sketched a new monocoque design on a fag packet in my motor home that we need to use next weekend in Vegas”…..

These guys rely on a team of roughly 2 thousand people behind them to deliver a package good enough to challenge for a world championship. Lewis was very lucky for so many years he was given the best car on the grid, much like Max is enjoying now. I know many people get caught up in the romance of drivers suddenly being the most talented of their peers when they get a good car, but ultimately they are in a very fortunate position.
 
Why is it that everything is taken so seriously... It is not like Lewis/Fernando/Bottas are in some old age home playing lawn bowls and need enemas once a day... What I don't see is all the experience gained by Lewis etc translating into wins.. If anything Lando and whathisname, Pastry, they are doing more..Mclaren doing better than both Mercs and AM combined, at least it seems that way, and Lando is how many years younger than Lewis..

So a lack of experience helps or hinders??
I'd say it hinders... but they learn.
 
Why is it that everything is taken so seriously... It is not like Lewis/Fernando/Bottas are in some old age home playing lawn bowls and need enemas once a day... What I don't see is all the experience gained by Lewis etc translating into wins.. If anything Lando and whathisname, Pastry, they are doing more..Mclaren doing better than both Mercs and AM combined, at least it seems that way, and Lando is how many years younger than Lewis..

So a lack of experience helps or hinders??
Oh dear.

Ok then; so basically, teams build a car and it's either very fast or not fast enough. In F1, the differences are often very, very small indeed, like 100ths or even 1000ths of a second over a lap. So in which case, the driver could well make a difference. Great drivers can make more of a difference with their driving skill and experience. Experience is gained over time, hence older drivers have more experience. This experience can be fed back to the team, and help them improve/adjust the car. Drivers like Alonso and Max have so much skill and experience, that they can feel the subtle differences in set-up more acutely than others, so can advise engineers as to what needs adjusting. This is why such drivers are able to win races/achieve great results with technically 'inferior' cars, becasue their input can make more of a difference. Lewis Hamilton, whilst a great racing driver, doesn't have quite the same amount of insight and 'feel' for the car, so requires his car to be 'right' from the off. This means the engineers have to work harder to give him the car he needs. In this respect, Hamilton is doing slightly less than say Alonso or Max. This is why Hamilton struggles if the car isn't quite right at a particular circuit.

McLaren have enjoyed much better performance recently, because their engineers have got the car more 'right' than other teams. This may be down to skill, or just plain luck, or more likely a combination of both. The McLaren is currently looking like the best car on the grid right now actually. I've said this before; in Max's hands, it would probably be winning races. That Perez is no longer able to put the Red Bull on the front row, shows just how much other teams have caught up. Another factor is that RB stopped fully developing the car to concentrate on next year's car. This happened when the WCs were more or less sewn up. Which was many weeks ago, let's be honest. So there are only minor tweaks, whilst other teams have made bigger advances, and the gap has shrunk. Max is so good he can still drive the car faster than anyone else. Aston Martin enjoyed some early season podiums, but lost their way whilst other teams overtook them. Mercedes have been up and down largely because of Hamilton's inability to help 'develop' the car in the same way Max or Fernando can. He cannot give feedback to get that extra 0.05" out of the car, like they can. He cannot adjust and adapt, to get that extra fraction out of it. I've always said that the very best drivers are the ones who can win/get great results in an inferior car. Max and Fernando can, Lewis can't. That's his weakness. This manifests in the way he whinges and moans when the car isn't 100% right. He puts the blame on others, to mask his own inadequacy.

Norris and Piastri are young, and relatively inexperienced. They are getting good results, especially Norris, because the McLaren is so good right now. That's it. In time, they may develop the skill to be able to extract another tenth out of the car through feedback, but only time will tell. Very few drivers really possess this skill. In my lifetime, that's been Senna, Alonso, Vettel and Verstappen. They are the extra 1% the teams need.
 
I can’t imagine Lewis or Lando saying “can you make sure there is 30 daN extra of load across the back of the car, 10 degrees more rear wing and I’ve sketched a new monocoque design on a fag packet in my motor home that we need to use next weekend in Vegas”
No, but I can imagine Alonso or Max doing that. They have that instinctive 'feel' for the car that other drivers just don't.

Lewis was very lucky for so many years he was given the best car on the grid, much like Max is enjoying now. I know many people get caught up in the romance of drivers suddenly being the most talented of their peers when they get a good car, but ultimately they are in a very fortunate position.
Lewis had the best car, and lost the DWC to Max. 😐 Sometimes the difference really is the driver.
 
What I don't see is all the experience gained by Lewis etc translating into wins.. If anything Lando and (Piastri) are doing more..Mclaren doing better than both Mercs and AM combined, at least it seems that way, and Lando is how many years younger than Lewis.

McLaren has been making large strides this year making the car more drivable. This translates into making it easier for Norris and Piastri to get more performance out of it.

Aston appears to have gone the wrong direction with their upgrades and did not understand why they were not working as expected. They used Austin and Mexico City as "test sessions" to gather as much data as they could and that allowed them to identify where things were both helping and hindering and the result was a 3rd and 5th in Brazil. If they do equally well in Abu Dhabi, that would be a positive sign for them going into the off-season development for the 2024 season.


Lewis had the best car, and lost the DWC to Max. 😐 Sometimes the difference really is the driver.

Especially when they are helped by the FIA. ;)

(And for the record, Max is not the only beneficiary of such interference. Prost won his third WDC thanks to FIA President Jean-Marie Balestre.)
 
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No, but I can imagine Alonso or Max doing that. They have that instinctive 'feel' for the car that other drivers just don't.
Alonso would have been a lot more successful if he was a designer as you suggest he is and Max certainly isn’t in that camp. Any driver is lucky to be given the best car, it doesn’t mean a great driver isn’t great because he uses it to get a championship. Let’s not be petty and suggest these champions are not as good as each other, especially when they are multiple world champions.


Lewis had the best car, and lost the DWC to Max. Sometimes the difference really is the driver.
Sometimes the difference is the gift the race director gives too. Max wouldn’t have won had he not been given the lead and he wasn’t getting that lead on merit up until that point.
 
Aston appears to have gone the wrong direction with their upgrades and did not understand why they were not working as expected. They used Austin and Mexico City as "test sessions" to gather as much data as they could and that allowed them to identify where things were both helping and hindering and the result was a 3rd and 5th in Brazil. If they do equally well in Abu Dhabi, that would be a positive sign for them going into the off-season development for the 2024 season.
From what I heard Aston simply went back to their old package in Brazil, skipping the upgrades entirely. The truth is perhaps somewhere in between.
 
Ha, F1, a paradox.. But other news, is F1 Vegas going ahead? See talk of a strike by the bar staff.. No booze, no hospitality, no hotels can be booked.. Not sure, is that correct??
 
Alonso would have been a lot more successful if he was a designer as you suggest he is and Max certainly isn’t in that camp. Any driver is lucky to be given the best car, it doesn’t mean a great driver isn’t great because he uses it to get a championship. Let’s not be petty and suggest these champions are not as good as each other, especially when they are multiple world champions.
Both Alonso and Verstappen, like Senna and Vettel did, have the ability to extract just one more percent, a fraction of a percent, out of a car. We witnessed this on Sunday, with Alonso fending off Perez, then overtaking him on the final lap to take 3rd. Such drivers can adapt their driving to accommodate the unique characteristics of whatever car they are in; even when both have had bad cars, they've still managed to drag them further up the grid than team mates have, and further than the cars deserved. They also have a rare talent in being able to help engineers to improve the cars by just an nth, which very few drivers can do. It's not being 'petty'; it's just stating the facts.
 
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From what I heard Aston simply went back to their old package in Brazil, skipping the upgrades entirely. The truth is perhaps somewhere in between.

They seem to have had a strange season which started with so much promise. All that experience and they lost their way until the last race. Sometimes the upgrades simply go in the wrong direction I suppose, Mercedes are testament to that over the past couple of years and of course Ferrari.
 
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