As the season is effectively, over, a cancelled LV GP wouldn't be a huge problem for F1, but would impact massively on the corporations that make huge profits in that pit of depravity. Which can only be a good thing in my book. Up the workers!
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2023 Formula 1 Season thread
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Ok I'll try again, as I believe I have a right to reply.
And Max won.
The End.
So; having established the facts, let's now please move on. Thanks.
Evidence needed. Creating false narratives does nothing for the sport, and only creates animosity between people. As no evidence exists, such accusations are nothing but provocation by those who cannot accept the result.Especially when they are helped by the FIA.
Prost won because Senna had been deemed to have not completed the lap (by using the escape route). I watched the race, this happened. Had he not been disqualified for this, then he would have been disqualified for 'outside interference' as he was push-started by marshalls. So; Prost won fair and square according to the rules.
He wasn't 'given the lead'. When the race restarted, he overtook Hamilton. And won fair and square according to the situation both drivers were in. Max won the 2021 DWC on merit. What happened behind both drivers was nothing they had any control over. They were told to race, they raced.
And Max won.
The End.
So; having established the facts, let's now please move on. Thanks.
SKY noted during the broadcast that Aston had rolled back to their earlier season configuration, but The Race (a really good F1 YouTube channel, IMO) noted that the team used both Austin and Mexico City to try out the "old" components and the "new components" for Lance (Austin) and Alonso (Mexico City) and then presented a bit of a "blend" of the two for the Interlagos event.
Please. Even if we have not read the F1 rulebook cover to cover, there are people who have and they listed all the inconsistencies Michael Massi did on that final restart. Also, just having watched F1 for over three decades gave most of us sufficient familiarity with the general rules to know they were not being followed.
It was no secret that Balestre was not a fan of Senna and supported Prost as a fellow Frenchman. Also, as FIA and FISA chairman, it can be argued that Balestre had no business telling the marshals and race director how to run the race. He's an administrator.
Per the rules, due to the insufficient number of laps remaining, lapped cars would hold their position in line for the restart rather than cycle past the unlapped cars and take up station behind them for the re-start. Red Bull and Mercedes both knew this and expected this, which is why Red Bull pitted Max for fresh tires to give him the best chance to work his way through the lapped cars ahead of him and Mercedes did not pit Lewis as they believed the lapped cars would hold Max up long enough to ensure Max could not reach him before the Checkered Flag. When Massi then ordered the lapped cars to unlap themselves, in direct contravention of established procedure, Max had an overwhelming advantage over Lewis as he had fresh tires and Lewis had used.
If Massi had followed established procedure, it is possible Max might have quickly passed the lapped traffic and had enough time to run down Lewis and pass him for the win. Or if Massi had informed both teams ahead of time of his intentions to let the field unlap itself, Mercedes would have brought Lewis in for fresh rubber, as well, and both cars would have started on equal ground (at least in terms of tire wear). But because he did not, we were denied a straight fight. Max on his fresh tires blasted past Lewis on his used tires and easily won the race and the title.
What makes Massi's decision that much more ironic is he explicitly told both drivers and their team management prior to the race that he did not want any "shenanigans" like an on-track collision or the teams instructing the second driver to cause a Yellow or Red Flag that might influence who would win the WDC. He demanded a "straight fight" and then decided to toss that out the window on the last lap when he saw the opportunity to "spice things up".
And the fact that the FIA 1) launched an investigation into Massi's actions; 2) revised and clarified the rules to ensure no race director could do such a thing again; and 3) relieved Massi of his post is all the proof anyone should need that his actions were out-of-line and brought disrepute to the sport and the 2021 World Driving Championship.
He was power hungry and obsessed with money, everything you shouldn’t have as president of FISA. In Ecclestones biography it was said that Bernie once booked all the hotel suites left in Monaco as he found out in a meeting that Balestre didn’t have accommodation. He then offered for him to stay at his apartment and when Balestre turned up, Bernie offered him the sofa, by what point he had no choice. Despised throughout F1, even by those that worked with him but moved the goalposts often for French drivers. I think the FIA still has issues stemming back to then.
Masi was sacked due to incompetence under pressure. People can claim until the cows come home that Max won his first title on track, but he would never have done it had it not been for a race director getting things badly wrong and not following regulations. Sure, Max seized the opportunity as any driver would, but it was a life line after effectively losing the last race on track. Had Max really won that championship fairly, Masi would have kept his job and the FIA wouldn’t have admitted getting it wrong as publicly as they did. Like 1989, 1990 and 1994, 2021 stands as one of the most controversial world championship deciders in the history of Formula One.
Ok, just to clear up for everyone...
2021 World Drivers Champion was Max, and not Lewis... Masi played no role in this, how could he?
You see, in 2021, in a series of races, called a season, Lewis did fairly well, but due to some reason or another, he made a mistake in Baku, and boiled his brakes, and failed to finish in the points...Had Lewis finished no worse than 6th that year, he would have had 1 point more than Max at the conclusion of Abu Dhabi...
Masi played no role in who authorised/designed/used the "magic" button.. Masi played no role in Bottas finishing 3rd in Bahrain/Spain/Portugal.. 3 events in which Lewis won, Max 2nd...
A champion is decided as a result of a season of races, and Max had 7 points more than Lewis, mostly due to the failure to use the button in Baku, and partly due to Bottas 3rd's in Bahrain/Spain/Portugal.. You will find no mention of theft/crime in those events, events won by Lewis, but it is a crime of the century when a bloke maybe makes 1 mistake, and is accused of a crime tantamount to stealing the Royal Knickers.. Really...
Formula 1 is not an honest fair sport, it is not a sport, it is a business, it is more unfair and corrupt than the WWE/WWF was in the 1980's... It was/is/forever be a scam, it is sport entertainment, the drivers, team principles are more actors than they are actual sportmen or administrators..
We watch what is really 20+ episodes of a planet wide soap opera.. We have hero's and villians.. Plots so holey, the Swiss would sue for copyright.. We love the drama..
2021 World Drivers Champion was Max, and not Lewis... Masi played no role in this, how could he?
You see, in 2021, in a series of races, called a season, Lewis did fairly well, but due to some reason or another, he made a mistake in Baku, and boiled his brakes, and failed to finish in the points...Had Lewis finished no worse than 6th that year, he would have had 1 point more than Max at the conclusion of Abu Dhabi...
Masi played no role in who authorised/designed/used the "magic" button.. Masi played no role in Bottas finishing 3rd in Bahrain/Spain/Portugal.. 3 events in which Lewis won, Max 2nd...
A champion is decided as a result of a season of races, and Max had 7 points more than Lewis, mostly due to the failure to use the button in Baku, and partly due to Bottas 3rd's in Bahrain/Spain/Portugal.. You will find no mention of theft/crime in those events, events won by Lewis, but it is a crime of the century when a bloke maybe makes 1 mistake, and is accused of a crime tantamount to stealing the Royal Knickers.. Really...
Formula 1 is not an honest fair sport, it is not a sport, it is a business, it is more unfair and corrupt than the WWE/WWF was in the 1980's... It was/is/forever be a scam, it is sport entertainment, the drivers, team principles are more actors than they are actual sportmen or administrators..
We watch what is really 20+ episodes of a planet wide soap opera.. We have hero's and villians.. Plots so holey, the Swiss would sue for copyright.. We love the drama..
And if Lewis had not crashed into Max at Silverstone, Max probably would have won the WDC because he had such a large lead going into that race and would have likely extended it coming out. But with his DNF and Lewis' win, that wiped out most of Max's lead at the time and allowed Lewis to close the gap over the remaining races. It's easy to point at various moments when the Championship was impacted in a way that tilted it in either driver's favor. *shrug*
I believe that if Massi had followed established procedure in Abu Dhabi, Max had a good chance of winning thanks to his fresher tires even with traffic. It is quite possible that all that lapped traffic would have made way for him to pass and he would have taken Lewis well before the final corner. Or that lapped traffic could have done to Max what Vitaly Petrov did to Alonso at Abu Dhabi in 2010 and hold him up long enough to deny him the WDC. But because of Messi's actions, we'll never know and that is what I have an issue with, not Max winning the WDC (I was a Ferrari supporter so I was fine with it being Max or Lewis as both had run a solid championship challenge).
And those actions and lack of a "fair fight" to the finish are why some feel Max's title that year is "tainted", much as some consider Schumacher's 1994 title and Senna's 1990 title to be. At least in Max's favor, it was not his actions that led to said "taint".
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Ok, in Formula 1, you have 2 cars per team, the idea is 1 car is the title contender , the other is there to get points off other drivers, the idea is for example Mercedes, you have Lewis wanting the title, he goes for the wins, Bottas's job is to get as many 2nd's as possible... If say Bottas's keeps getting 3rds, and your rival, in this case, 2021, was Max, and he keeps getting 2nds, then if there is a problem, a duff engine, a sleepy wheel changer, a bad design for a button, a crash, this erodes into the insurance you hope to build up..
Lewis would have won 2021 but for 2 situations, a bad design/placement of a button..and his "wingman" having lost the plot, read the script for 2022, Bottas's getting 3rds in Bahrain/Spain+Portugal, you combine the lost points, 6th in Baku, and the 12 points lost by Max getting 2nd [19 points for 2nd, 15 for 3rd..] 8+12=20...Lewis would have been so far ahead in Abu Dhabi...
2021 is done, subject to a court case in the future, maybe someone will find some reason.. It was Mercedes alone that cost Lewis a title, you can blame it on a bad decision to retain Bottas, or a bad design choice, or Lewis getting all confused in Baku, at no point in 2021 was his title lost due to anyone outside of the team... Not Max, nor Masi, or anyone from Race control...
Lewis had the option to place the button anywhere, he chose/was told/whatever, it was one of 2 reasons he lost the title, or one of 2 reasons Max won, Max did not win due to Masi stealing/committing a crime.. If a crime was committed, why did no one lay a charge at the local police? Why was Masi not arrested?
I cannot for the life of me understand how it is so hard to see that but for 2 seperate team related incidents, 2021 has the rightful champion in Max.. Max did not cheat, he maybe had the lessor championship winning car, but over a season, he won, maybe in hindsight, George instead of Bottas, maube George would have nicked a couple of 2nd's in Bahrain/Spain or Portugal.. We cannot know...
Lewis would have won 2021 but for 2 situations, a bad design/placement of a button..and his "wingman" having lost the plot, read the script for 2022, Bottas's getting 3rds in Bahrain/Spain+Portugal, you combine the lost points, 6th in Baku, and the 12 points lost by Max getting 2nd [19 points for 2nd, 15 for 3rd..] 8+12=20...Lewis would have been so far ahead in Abu Dhabi...
2021 is done, subject to a court case in the future, maybe someone will find some reason.. It was Mercedes alone that cost Lewis a title, you can blame it on a bad decision to retain Bottas, or a bad design choice, or Lewis getting all confused in Baku, at no point in 2021 was his title lost due to anyone outside of the team... Not Max, nor Masi, or anyone from Race control...
Lewis had the option to place the button anywhere, he chose/was told/whatever, it was one of 2 reasons he lost the title, or one of 2 reasons Max won, Max did not win due to Masi stealing/committing a crime.. If a crime was committed, why did no one lay a charge at the local police? Why was Masi not arrested?
I cannot for the life of me understand how it is so hard to see that but for 2 seperate team related incidents, 2021 has the rightful champion in Max.. Max did not cheat, he maybe had the lessor championship winning car, but over a season, he won, maybe in hindsight, George instead of Bottas, maube George would have nicked a couple of 2nd's in Bahrain/Spain or Portugal.. We cannot know...
Max won fairly!!! What did Max do that wasn't fair? He just raced, he just did his job, and didn't cut any corners to get there.
To be fair Bernie hated the whole FIA and threatened to leave their governnance on numerous ocassions, one of which very nearly happened and even had a calendar confirmed in the early 80's. They were constantly trying to seize control of his sport and ego's like Balestre wanted extreme wealth whilst Bernie took all the risk. It was only when Mosley came to power that things changed as Bernie had a lot of sway in getting him the presidency.
The FIA is a lot less corrupt than it used to be, but they still haven't been able to address the issue of inconsistent stewarding. I think 2021 was similar to 1989 in that they are the only times I can think of in the modern era where the actions of the FIA decided who would be the World Champion off the race track.
I think fans would have accepted that scenario even if it was hard to swallow, at least the title would have been decided on the circuit rather than off it. If Lewis had been in Max's position and been handed the same opportunity, he would have taken it too, but I would have felt a little cheated and I'd like to think those with integrity would have acknowledged it for what it would have been. At least the FIA admitted the mistakes and it defined what that championship stands for, I certainly didn't want to see the outcome decided in court. It is what it is.
The only fans not accepting it seem to be DTS Lewis Hamilton fans, UK-based fans, and the British Press. The rest of the world can move on and see it for what it was. And looking at how Red Bull as a team has pushed on, surely any true F1 can acknowledge and see what an outstanding performance they've presented. Not least how super consistent and precise Max Verstappen is.
I truly believe Lewis Hamilton still has it (just like Fernando Alonso), but it clearly demonstrates that being an amazing driver alone isn't sufficient, just as Fernando so nicely demonstrated in the last race, neither is having a fantastic car by itself. It is team work that is required to win in this sport, actually in any sport. In 2023, there is no sport where just the athlete is entirely by themselves performing all alone.
Even though 'my guy' has already won many races ago, I'm still excited to see the next few races. The spectacle, the show, the practice, the qualifying, the sprint, the race is about much more than just who won it.
I really don't understand this constant moaning that some exhibit. Life is so much more wonderful when you enjoy it, and party like us Dutch do. Have some a bit of fun atmosphere.
I truly believe Lewis Hamilton still has it (just like Fernando Alonso), but it clearly demonstrates that being an amazing driver alone isn't sufficient, just as Fernando so nicely demonstrated in the last race, neither is having a fantastic car by itself. It is team work that is required to win in this sport, actually in any sport. In 2023, there is no sport where just the athlete is entirely by themselves performing all alone.
Even though 'my guy' has already won many races ago, I'm still excited to see the next few races. The spectacle, the show, the practice, the qualifying, the sprint, the race is about much more than just who won it.
I really don't understand this constant moaning that some exhibit. Life is so much more wonderful when you enjoy it, and party like us Dutch do. Have some a bit of fun atmosphere.
How does this prove that either the 1989 or 2021 results were manipulated by the FIA? It doesn't. End of.
Again, this is not evidence of manipulation of race results. Senna would have been disqualified for receiving outside help anyway, so your theory is completely invalid, no matter hwomuch you want it to be correct. It just isn't, and that's the facts.
It's proof of nothing. He made an error under extreme pressure to deliver a 'spectacle', and acted according to what he thought would be the best course of action. It was a bad decision, but nothing more than that. It wasn't a 'manipulation' as Hamilton and his fans would love to scream, it was just a good old fashioned plain mistake. A human error. Made by a human. Another error made in the race was not penalising Hamilton for cutting a corner earlier on when Max was overtaking him, and rejoining the track in front. Yadda yadda yadda. Sport islittered with mistakes, sometimes they create results that are very controversial. But that'ssport; it's a human endeavour. Get over it.
Oh; and it's 'Masi', btw.
It needs to be pointed out that Bernie Ecclestone is a proven liar and a fraud, so taking anything he says without a massive pinch of salt is not to be advised. As for FIA corruption; Ecclestone is truly the most corrupt individual ever involved with the sport (which surely has to be one of the most corrupt of all; see races in Bahrain, Saudi, Qatar, Russia, Vegas etc). Do your homework.
It WAS decided on the track. Just because you don't like the result, doesn't mean it's not fact.
Of course, voiding the AD result from the 2021 calendar would shut a lot of people up. Oh, but then, Max wins by the fact he had more wins...
Exactly. But the more they bang on about how 'unfair' it all is, the funnier it gets. 🤣
Lewis made a right hash in Baku and sure, he would have had a lot more points going into Abu Dhabi, but we could look at numerous instances throughout the season, but ultimately they arrived in Abu Dhabi 'level' on points. That race alone was an all to play for race where whoever finished ahead of the other was champion. Max qualified on pole and lost the lead at the first corner to Lewis. He tried to regain the lead into turn 6 by diving up the inside and forcing Lewis across the chicane but after that he was dropping back. Lewis commanded that race from then on and under the regulations, was placed in a position that was very difficult to lose. Masi changed the restart procedure on a whim and that ultimately decided the Championship.
Not sure where you get the impression Max was driving a 'lessor championship wiining car'??? He won 10 races to Lewis' 8 and qualified on pole 10 times to Lewis' 5. Throughout much of that season both Mercedes and Red Bull were developing their cars to the point we just didn't know which car was going to be better at each race and sometimes they were evenly matched. The stats suggest Red Bull had the faster car over the entire season narrowly losing the constructors championship due to Checo being slightly more inconsistent compared to Bottas. The whole myth that Max won/obtained his first title in an inferior car is just a load on nonsence dreamt up by those trying to exaggerate his accomplishments IMHO. It would make a good DTS episode, thats for sure.
Tell us you don't like Max, without telling us you don't like Max. 🤣
Merc won the CWC. Bottas finished 3rd, Perez 4th. I think that suggests even a slight advantage for Merc really.
You know that your interpretation is just that, don't you? And subjective? And that whilst others might share your interpretation, yet others also might not. But the facts, and these aren't subject to interpretation, are that Max won the race fair and square according to the conditions all drivers faced.
I'm glad you've accepted facts. Now let's move on.
Yup, Vegas is about racing. The curbs are covered with Spades, Hearts, Diamonds, and Clubs. High temps expected to be 40F at race time. Might need to run inters to build heat. 😂😂😂
I visited Vegas once in December. Walking down the strip one evening was the coldest I've ever felt, and I've been living in the arctic for more than 20 years! I wouldn't want to be a spectator there in 40°F temperatures.
Wow, the teams will have to get the de-icer ready just in case! As the season is over, perhaps they can treat it as winter testing as those are some Silverstone February style temperatures. Not sure I will be making any special effort to watch the highlights of this one to be honest, I think the venue is a farce and I get the impression most of the drivers will be keen to call 2023 a day.
Can you imagine the Safety Issues? Cars weaving all over the place trying to build temps while others are approaching at high speed on fast laps?
Then you interject the Stewards and the Race Director Minimum Speed and you have the perfect conditions for a meltdown of historic proportion.
I‘m very suspicious as to how ready the preparations will be by Day 1. Allot of bits and pieces out there on just how bad it’s going.………..
F1 should be charged criminally if things go south.
If you flip it on the X-axis it looks like a pig.
As I've said a few times now, it's a TEAM SPORT!!! The 'team' builds a good car so it wins races. The driver is there to get the most out of the car.
On a side note I see a Brawn docu hosted by Keane Reeves is coming to Disney Plus, will have to watch that, it's about that famous season that was pure bonkers. And put a few noses out of place if you ask me too. Bit like how Red Bull did when they started winning. Upset the status quo.
Is that it!!! Looks like they made a circuit round Milton Keynes where most of them are! If you've been there you'll know it has some very square layouts. 11 corners and some of those long sweeping ones. How utterly boring.
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If you flip it on the X-axis it looks like a pig.
🤣😂🤣 so it does! That's it it is now officially known as the 'Piggy Circuit' 😂🤣