2025 Apple TV 4K: All the Rumors So Far

[Scoob Redux]

seems to me these tv do not need the
the…
that port we used to reach the internets in the late 90s?
ummm
whats that thin yello or grey rope with plastic cat rg7 plug called again?

But your ISP only guarantees advertised speeds when using ethernet. Until we can force ISPs to advertise, support and guarantee wi-fi speeds, we are forced to rely on ethernet for the fastest advertised speed. Slow internet? Call your ISP. The first question they will ask is "Are you connected via ethernet" No? Then "Sorry, we can't guarantee any specific speeds over wi-fi."

 

[sublunar]

The iPhone 15 doesn’t have an A17. It uses the A16 which is on N4 - a long term support node for TSMC. Only the 15 Pro uses the A17 Pro which is on N3B and Apple always discontinues their Pro models after a year.

Normally the chip in the Pro model becomes the chip in the base model of the next year. But it’s already been widely rumored that that is not happening next year. Apple will use an N3E chip in both the Pro and non-Pro iPhones - using the same strategy they used in the iPhone 13 generation where the regular iPhone got a cut down version of the Pro (one fewer GPU “core”).

Likely the A18 (non-Pro) in the iPhone 16 will be broadly similar to the A17 Pro in performance but substantially easier/cheaper for Apple to manufacture. Thats the chip that will hang around for a long time and go into things like Apple TVs and iPhone SEs and whatnot.

There was that video (max tech?) that suggested many of the benchmark gains in the a17 pro are in fact down to overclocking.

Sounds a reasonable assertion to make about the A18 cpu, and as a rev A device it might be worth holding off on a 15 in that case

But we are discussing the Apple TV which would really use the 3 key features of the a17 pro for a 2024 release. As I said, upgrading from a15 to a16 for apple doesn’t make sense - a17pro sounds like the right kind of upgrade but an Apple TV doesn’t just hang around for 12 months.

It could be there in the lineup for years…

Hardware ray tracing and AV1 decoding (YouTube) have been mentioned already, and max tech mentioned metalFX doing smart hardware graphics upscaling (kind of like DLSS for windows gamers) which would be useful for upscaling output from a lower powered GPU to 4k without needing that much compute power to truly drive a 4K display.

Let’s also not forget there is an M3 coming down the line so what process node is that likely to be used on? Is it also too soon for N3?

 

[MBAir2010]

Call your ISP. The first question they will ask is "Are you connected via ethernet" No? Then "Sorry, we can't guarantee any specific speeds over wi-fi."

what?

this statement was not in reply to my observation
of course an error, wrong reply, i hope.

if so,
why would i call anyone over a service?
Since nobody cares, and they wont care, so why call?
personally i wont call to complain about anything.


anyways the tv i own lacks a port, i did not make the thing and somehow that works great!

 

[Velin]

seems to me these tv do not need the
the…
that port we used to reach the internets in the late 90s?
ummm
whats that thin yello or grey rope with plastic cat rg7 plug called again?

Wrong. Ethernet-connected Apple TV is superior in every way. Zero latency. Minimal lag. Never any buffering. And no interference from other wifi and bluetooth devices causing problems.

Ethernet Apple TV all the way.

 

[JoeShades]

But your ISP only guarantees advertised speeds when using ethernet. Until we can force ISPs to advertise, support and guarantee wi-fi speeds, we are forced to rely on ethernet for the fastest advertised speed. Slow internet? Call your ISP. The first question they will ask is "Are you connected via ethernet" No? Then "Sorry, we can't guarantee any specific speeds over wi-fi."

It is not possible to guarantee Wifi speeds

 

[TheBeverage]

I still run a 1st gen 4K Apple TV from 2017 and the absolute only feature upgrade the 2nd gen forward seem to have is running YouTube at 4K60 rather than either 4K30 or 1440p60. Between the 2nd and 3rd, zero functional difference except removing the Ethernet port for those who don't pay a premium. I can't understand why people want an update to this device, I can only assume Apple is only bothering because different chips are cheaper for them to produce in given years.

 

[Wrylachlan2]

But we are discussing the Apple TV which would really use the 3 key features of the a17 pro for a 2024 release. As I said, upgrading from a15 to a16 for apple doesn’t make sense - a17pro sounds like the right kind of upgrade but an Apple TV doesn’t just hang around for 12 months.

It could be there in the lineup for years…

Hardware ray tracing and AV1 decoding (YouTube) have been mentioned already, and max tech mentioned metalFX doing smart hardware graphics upscaling (kind of like DLSS for windows gamers) which would be useful for upscaling output from a lower powered GPU to 4k without needing that much compute power to truly drive a 4K display.

There’s no pressing need for Apple to get these features into an Apple TV in the summer. If Apple wants hardware RT and AV1 they can just wait for the A18 in the fall which will likely cost Apple less per chip than the A17 Pro since N3E has better yields than N3B.

That said, even cheaper would be to wait until 2025 when N3E is a year and a half old, the yields are terrific and the initial sales rush for the iPhone 16 has died down. I don’t see a pressing strategic reason why they need to update the Apple TV in 2024 instead of waiting for 2025. Hell, there’s even an off chance that with an extra Christmas and football season that 8K TVs will have reached critical mass in 2025 and Apple can sell it as an Apple TV 8K.

Let’s also not forget there is an M3 coming down the line so what process node is that likely to be used on? Is it also too soon for N3?

If the M3 generation was coming in the spring then Vision Pro would have waited for it instead of going with an M2. So my assumption is WWDC at the earliest. And at that point N3B no longer makes any sense whatsoever.

My assumption is that the M3 generation will be on N3E.

 

[CapitalIdea]

Apple really missed the boat on smart home devices. Our house is filled with Alexa devices - and eight iPhones.

Yeah apple sure missed the boat on that gigantic albatross that loses Amazon a fortune every year. 🙄

 

[George Dawes]

They miss the point that iOS gaming is really quite advanced , I play a game called Marvel Strike force ( or farce lol ) a lot more than anything on my 2 x PS5's

Imagine this on a souped up Apple TV ?

Tbh It wouldn't take much to make an ATV console killer , would it ??

 

[sublunar]

There’s no pressing need for Apple to get these features into an Apple TV in the summer. If Apple wants hardware RT and AV1 they can just wait for the A18 in the fall which will likely cost Apple less per chip than the A17 Pro since N3E has better yields than N3B.

That said, even cheaper would be to wait until 2025 when N3E is a year and a half old, the yields are terrific and the initial sales rush for the iPhone 16 has died down. I don’t see a pressing strategic reason why they need to update the Apple TV in 2024 instead of waiting for 2025. Hell, there’s even an off chance that with an extra Christmas and football season that 8K TVs will have reached critical mass in 2025 and Apple can sell it as an Apple TV 8K.


If the M3 generation was coming in the spring then Vision Pro would have waited for it instead of going with an M2. So my assumption is WWDC at the earliest. And at that point N3B no longer makes any sense whatsoever.

My assumption is that the M3 generation will be on N3E.

Only trouble is they risk AppleTV falling behind again, A15 is now effectively a budget cpu used in iPhone SE2022 and iPhone 13 which apple could be seeking to cease production by the end of 2024.

What about a situation where apple launch an A17 (non pro) cpu which is in effect a binned version of the A17 pro using (for example) fewer graphics cores (5 instead of 6), and/or a lower cpu clock speed and lower power draw.

It wouldn’t need to be faster at cpu than the A16 but faster performing graphics plus the hardware AV1 and ray tracing plus metalFX upscaling would be useful to have in AppleTV.

An AppleTV in March 2024 would be a good place to launch that on the assumption that Apple stockpile the CPUs that narrowly fail certification for A17 pro status.

This obviously would only launch off the back of data that Apple receive from the number of CPUs they yield that meet the lower spec while failing to be good enough to be an A17 pro.

We might only be talking about filling orders till proper 3nm CPUs appear - eg 2026 when the natural lifecycle for this generation of AppleTV would be over.

 

[sublunar]

I still run a 1st gen 4K Apple TV from 2017 and the absolute only feature upgrade the 2nd gen forward seem to have is running YouTube at 4K60 rather than either 4K30 or 1440p60. Between the 2nd and 3rd, zero functional difference except removing the Ethernet port for those who don't pay a premium. I can't understand why people want an update to this device, I can only assume Apple is only bothering because different chips are cheaper for them to produce in given years.

I think Apple add HDR and various audio formats like the various Dolbys to the later 4k models, a refresh to use A17 technology would add metalFX upscaling to make games look smoother in 4k plus AV1 decoding in hardware and hardware ray tracing. So it’d be an upgrade for gamers rather than cinephiles.

 

[Shanghaichica]

Apple really missed the boat on smart home devices. Our house is filled with Alexa devices - and eight iPhones.

They did enough for me at least it seems. As I have 8 HomePods at home. However, I only use them for music and as speakers for my Apple TV. I also have seven Alexa devices at home which I use for everything but music. I use them to control all my smart devices. I wish I could just use one ideally, HomePods as all my other stuff is Apple.

 

[Shanghaichica]

Wrong. Ethernet-connected Apple TV is superior in every way. Zero latency. Minimal lag. Never any buffering. And no interference from other wifi and bluetooth devices causing problems.

Ethernet Apple TV all the way.

I agree. I have my living room Apple TV connected to my router via Ethernet and it's rocksolid.

 

[Shanghaichica]

I want a TV with Apple's TV OS installed (+native Airplay). I'm tired of all these AndroidTV etc. OS with ads and tracking.

Yeah that would be nice.

 

[cyb3rdud3]

Wrong. Ethernet-connected Apple TV is superior in every way. Zero latency. Minimal lag. Never any buffering. And no interference from other wifi and bluetooth devices causing problems.

Ethernet Apple TV all the way.

Alternatively, you can just configure your Wi-Fi correctly and you have the same. The maximum I can get at home is 1Gb internet, and whether connected via Ethernet or Wi-Fi, I get the same speeds.

The AppleTV has a maximum of 9600, my Asus WiFi mesh has 4804 (bi-directional), and my internet has only got 1024 And for Netflix 4K you only need 15.

 

[jlc1978]

I like this idea, however I’d rather see them slim down the A16 version into a dongle or stick type design; that way it would be easier to travel with While the Pro device could take over the larger format set top box.

I agree, although I've used my iPhone to stream when traveling.

Nowadays all Smart TV’s have all streaming apps built in, so what’s the added value of Apple TV at this point?

Privacy.

Agreed, but even then I don't think it will move the needle. The overwhelming perception out there among gamers is that Apple sucks for gaming and that perception is deeply rooted at this point. Apple has blown it so many times when it comes to gaming.

Hard core gamers are probably ever going to go to Apple but then again that are also likely to be using expensive and customized dedicated solutions. That's not the market Apple can shot fort's teh consilegamer who just wants the latest game to be playable.

Apple is throwing tons of money at Apple TV+, yet almost no one watches it. They haven't had a break-out show.

Ted Lasso

Netflix has 10x the number of the subscribers according to most reports, despite the billions of dollars Apple blows each year on (mediocre, at best) content.

Beyond Ted Lasso, For All Mankind is good, and Greyhound was as well. If Apple cuts deals with college football and F1 the results will be interesting.

It's typical of Tim Cook to cut costs on R&D and not pass those savings on to customers. He might even increase the prices.

As long as consumer buy that is teh right move for Apple.

But your ISP only guarantees advertised speeds when using ethernet. Until we can force ISPs to advertise, support and guarantee wi-fi speeds, we are forced to rely on ethernet for the fastest advertised speed. Slow internet? Call your ISP. The first question they will ask is "Are you connected via ethernet" No? Then "Sorry, we can't guarantee any specific speeds over wi-fi."

Guaranteeing wi-fi speeds is impossible given how speeds are impacted by devices, location, building construction, etc.

Lots of competitors in this field and Apple only has just over 14% of the market.

Apple should be partnering with TV manufacturers to get Apple TV built into TVs like other competitors do.

Given the cut throat pricing on TVs and Apple's likely privacy demands, content control and cost it'd be a non-starter for TV manufacturers.

 

[1madman1]

Less advertising in the UI please. A good part of that would be letting me delete (or at least hide) all the applets I dont want - which is most of them.

Would be great if the content applets could be set to default to your library rather than the store. If I wanted to buy something I'll make my own way over there.

I was an early adopter with the fat hard drive equipped AppleTV and it was a heck of a lot less cluttered with useless junk.

 

[JitteryJimmy]

Slimmed down! How so?

I can see Apple taking out the power supply and adding two USB-C ports. This could result in a smaller Apple TV. Why?

• Less heat, as the power conversion happens outside of the Apple TV
• Fewer models. Ethernet is no longer required on-board, as a dongle can be used.
• Other iOS USB-C peripherals become possible.
• The A-series chip already supports USB-C, as does iOS.

There is a cost negative: an external quality USB brick is more expensive and more fragile. But I speculate that fewer models to manufacture and stock would make up for that.

 

[Wrylachlan2]

Only trouble is they risk AppleTV falling behind again, A15 is now effectively a budget cpu used in iPhone SE2022 and iPhone 13 which apple could be seeking to cease production by the end of 2024.

It’s true that they don’t like to keep A series chips going in other products after the iPhone that uses them is retired. But that doesn’t happen until the fall.

What about a situation where apple launch an A17 (non pro) cpu which is in effect a binned version of the A17 pro using (for example) fewer graphics cores (5 instead of 6), and/or a lower cpu clock speed and lower power draw.

I think you’re still not getting the constraint here. The A17 Pro or any cut down version of the same is on TSMCs N3B process. That process is a total dead end. The ONLY chip that has ever used it or will ever use it is Apple’s A17 Pro. As soon as Apple stops needing the A17, all of the production lines currently making that chip will be repurposed to the N3E node that TSMC’s customers (including Apple) actually want.

There’s no way Apple is going to introduce a new variant that requires TSMC to keep N3B production lines running even longer.

An AppleTV in March 2024 would be a good place to launch that on the assumption that Apple stockpile the CPUs that narrowly fail certification for A17 pro status.

The last 2 Apple TV refreshes have been at WWDC. If they really want RT hardware in their Apple TV in 2024 they just need to wait 3 months and use the A18 in the fall.

 

[HobeSoundDarryl]

I know some people don’t like using the smart part of smart TVs, but personally I barely see the point of an Apple TV anymore, especially since nearly every smart TV now has AirPlay and various Apple Apps built-in. I can’t stand having multiple remotes.

About 2-3 years or so after buying the smart TV, the apps stop getting updated… and then just failing to work.

Of course, AppleTV is not immune to "abandonware" either... but it's generally much longer than TV apps staying up-to-date. And when AppleTV starts getting the same treatment, one can spend about $100 to get a latest & greatest new AppleTV box for all latest apps... as opposed to throwing out the entire TV because the manufacturer decided to no longer update select apps after a few years.

Also, TV app libraries tend to be rather constrained vs. AppleTV app library. Yes, the mainstream apps are generally available on both but if you want to use some less mainstream apps, odds fall off rapidly that THAT/THOSE apps will be available on the TV too.

 

[HobeSoundDarryl]

They need to include a camera, or at least do generic webcam support. Nobody wants to fuss about with continuity camera, but I’d do FaceTime calls with interstate family on the tv in a second if it was always ready to go

I agree but don't build the camera into the box itself... and thus force placement of the box to immediately above or below everyone's TV. People store their AppleTVs all over the place, even hidden behind a TV but a camera built in must be positioned right above or right below the screen, roughly centered, and oriented towards those wanting to FaceTime. That would be quite limiting/niche.

On the other hand, add a standard USB-C port and offer something like the now ancient iSight camera (modernized for 2023/4 of course) and then interested people could plug in the camera positioned in ideal spots and run the cable to wherever they want to store the AppleTV box. Or dual purpose that camera so it is Continuity wireless too, dedicated to AppleTV use.

 

[HobeSoundDarryl]

I'd buy an ATV that had a OTA tuner (ATSC3.0?) and coax antenna connection. That will almost for sure never happen. But...it really would be cool.

Would a single tuner be enough for everyone? Probably not. So build in two? Is two tuners enough for everyone? Probably not. So build in three? DVR service (which benefits from more tuners so one can watch one thing live while another thing(s) are recording)?

You can have what you want immediately with Silicon Dust HDHomeRun boxes and apps like the terrific Channels DVR app that work with them. I have this setup myself and love it. I have 4 ATSC 3 tuners + 4 ATSC 1 tuners + 3 Cable tuners in 3 HDHR boxes. Channels app brings it all together. Synology NAS (one of many options) acts as an any-size, whole home DVR. It all "just works" and Channels is the most-used app on AppleTVs in my household because of it.

Along with making every AppleTV in the home a combined over-the-air + cable television box, it also makes every computing screen in the house have access to the same live or recorded television too. I could add any number of additional tuners if my household needed more.

To me, this is far superior to Apple deciding on the number of tuners to build in (which will almost certainly always be too few for most people) and limiting what you can watch through those tuners to LIVE tv only and only on the television screen attached to that AppleTV.

If you actually want the core benefits of your wish NOW, HDHR box(es) + Channels or similar apps is THE way that "just works" right now. Look into it and you can have any number of ATSC3 tuners for your AppleTV in only a few days if you want it... just outside of the actual AppleTV box.

 

[HobeSoundDarryl]

The only feature I really want is loading full movies to local storage so that I can watch it without any interruptions should internet connectivity go downhill.

As is, download all movies to storage attached to the "mother" Mac (to which AppleTV home shares) and get your wish now. First gen had local storage. Apple could never choose the right amount of storage to make everyone happy. Some wanted up to 320GB, others wanted TBs of storage. Mac can pile up an abundance of connected storage to hold massive libraries of video to flow to the AppleTV. That is THE way right now.

However, I'd love to see a new AppleTV with a standardized USB-C port to be able to scratch this same kind of itch AT the AppleTV. First gen allowed people to sync their video to AppleTV storage. With the problem of Apple not being able to ever choose the right amount of storage... (which could now be) solved by a USB-C port offering users the ability to connect their own storage of any size, it's a cheap & simple "have your cake & eat it too" option.

OPTION B (but so much more unlikely): build an empty M.2 slot (or 2) into each AppleTV so interested buyers could add up to 16TB of local storage for synching massive amounts of video onto the box (and storing big games, apps etc too). This would deliver silent storage that probably covers the majority desire of range of storage sizes AND makes it much easier to take an AppleTV along on trips, plug in at stops and watch stuff on it vs. attaching to Mac back home or squeezed into relatively little space on the iDevices that are also on the trip.

I see nearly 0% chance of Option B but the USB-C port would be dirt cheap and easy if Apple was willing. And the same port could also support a wired FaceTime camera and other features some desire in a new AppleTV... without forcing a bunch of added cost on others not interested in such features... or in the case of front-facing camera, forcing placement of AppleTV to be only right above or right below the television.

 

[jlc1978]

There is a cost negative: an external quality USB brick is more expensive and more fragile. But I speculate that fewer models to manufacture and stock would make up for that.

Given a 20W plug powers an iPhone I doubt it would not work with an Apple TV and cost at least the same, info less, than a brick.

There’s no way Apple is going to introduce a new variant that requires TSMC to keep N3B production lines running even longer.

Apple has kept older ships around in devices and there is no reason they can't in an ATV; much like how older chips hang around in last year's iPhones that still are still sold.

I agree but don't build the camera into the box itself...

Continuity camera takes care of that. Add the small round Belkin MagSafe stand/ Mac mount and you are set.

Would a single tuner be enough for everyone? Probably not. So build in two? Is two tuners enough for everyone? Probably not. So build in three? DVR service (which benefits from more tuners so one can watch one thing live while another thing(s) are recording)?

I'm guessing zero would be enough for most ATV users; most probably don't want to mess with antenna's etc.

 

[mrr]

Apple TV should run Safari browser.