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ZeitGeist

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Mar 22, 2005
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I’m just curious, if I were to set up a brand new, modern lab doing the sort of applications you describe, would the manufacturers set me up with equipment that requires terribly outdated computers and software to operate them? It would strike me as odd that development of scientific and medical instrumentation had somehow stopped cold in the 1990s...
 
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Jubadub

macrumors 6502
Nov 1, 2017
342
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I’m just curious, if I were to set up a brand new, modern lab doing the sort of applications you describe, would the manufacturers set me up with equipment that requires terribly outdated computers and software to operate them?
Not normally, but no one is arguing otherwise here, either, so you are making no point whatsoever. And it should be noted new PowerPC computers are still manufactured and compatible with older PowerPC software, and are huge players in all fields.

The world's fastest supercomputer is also PowerPC-based, Summit. Not to mention NASA maintains many PowerPC-based machines in space (G3s and whatnot) for planet exploration. But f0k NASA, right?

You might also want to consider checking out Talos II (spoiler: PowerPC with competitive server-market pricing that absolutely smokes most of what is out there, also the first PC to ever offer PCIe Gen 4).

As if all this wasn't enough, just recently, it was announced the architecture can be implemented royalty-free now. And an extremely low-power PPC processor, the microwatt, will soon be out.

Finally, the last thing a brand new, modern lab will want to do is to waste money on new equipment that is capable of leaking all that you monetarily invested on to develop and research, because of non-removable processor-level backdoors like those found in all modern (and even some old) Intel and AMD processors, exploitable by both hackers in general and governments.
 
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bunnspecial

macrumors G3
May 3, 2014
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Kentucky
We have one emeritus faculty member who was using an Apple IIe with programs he wrote for it many, many years ago to analyze data up until just a handful of years ago. I actually put a new PSU in it at one point. I think he would have had a legitimate case for using a IIe emulator if he'd wanted, especially since he wasn't interfacing with hardware. He finally gave up on that research project(the computer is in my office now).

I’m just curious, if I were to set up a brand new, modern lab doing the sort of applications you describe, would the manufacturers set me up with equipment that requires terribly outdated computers and software to operate them? It would strike me as odd that development of scientific and medical instrumentation had somehow stopped cold in the 1990s...

I would say that the current versions of stuff I deal with connect either via LAN or USB. That probably covers 95% of major scientific equipment, with the fringe cases using proprietary interfaces.

Often times, older interfaces stick around past their prime just because of design inertia and a need for continued compatibility with even older stuff(remember that in an interconnected system, you may only replace part of it and retain older, still functioning parts).

As an example, for a good many uses, the interface I call HP-IB(Hewlett Packard Interface Bus), but that is also called GP-IB(general purpose interface bus) or IEEE-488 mostly went out of fashion in the 1980s. I have a Varian GC-MS that was bought new around 2003 that uses it, along with a Beckmann Capillary Electrophoresis instrument bought in ~2005 or so that uses it via an IEEE-488 bridge to USB bridge(not an option for something like a GC-MS, not the least of which because the software support isn't there, but also technical considerations). Agilent(formerly Hewlett Packard Instruments) started transitioning to LAN in the late 90s/early 2000s. I know Finnigan instruments-one of their big competitors(now part of Thermo-Fisher)-started going to LAN in the early 90s, but even around ~2000 they were still using thin net 10base2 and the actual communication protocols can twist your head into knots(I had to spend a while hunting on Ebay for a particular model and revision of 3Com ethernet card that's needed to get one mass spec I use to work). There was also plenty on RS-232, even up to maybe ~10 years ago.

I wish I could locate the paper again, as I seem to have lost it, but a while back I came across a nice summary of different instrument interface buses that compared speed, latency, and a few other factors. It essentially concluded that where latency isn't an issue-as is the case with some types of simpler data analysis where the instrument itself can store everything and then offload it as needed-USB is a good choice(essentially anywhere RS-232 would have been historically used) while LAN is better when you basically need real-time minimal latency data collection directly to the computer. Depending on the exact set-up, this may also be where proprietary interfaces come into play(the OS 9 NMR I mentioned uses that, while Varian/Agilent systems use LAN in RHEL and I've worked with others with their own proprietary interface in various OSs).

It's also worth noting that HP-IB is, in a lot of ways, almost an ideal interface for certain applications(MS use is one of those) since it's fast enough at the rate for a typical data collection rate with even less latency than LAN. The cost to implement and the physical size of the connectors are its two biggest drawbacks.

And, yes, as things get even more complicated, proprietary is still often the way to go. We have a 20 year old MALDI-TOF-MS that is loaded full of proprietary interface cards in the computer. That computer needs to control a lot of things, then collect a whole lot of data fast. I actually am not sure what more modern systems use, but I would not be surprised if it's still proprietary. I was eying a mothballed GCxGC-TOF-MS not too long ago, and one of the things that scared me off aggressively pursuing it was that no one could remember if the computer/specialized interface cards worked in that particular one.
 
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2984839

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Apr 19, 2014
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I’m just curious, if I were to set up a brand new, modern lab doing the sort of applications you describe, would the manufacturers set me up with equipment that requires terribly outdated computers and software to operate them? It would strike me as odd that development of scientific and medical instrumentation had somehow stopped cold in the 1990s...

It's actually quite possible that a brand new lab setup would include "legacy" systems. I work at a big biotech/pharma company and we buy new equipment that frequently shows up running on older hardware and sometimes with older operating systems as well. The reason is validation. Any changes to the equipment require re-validation of its software and hardware before we can use it, which is tremendously expensive.
 
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Fami7455

macrumors member
Jul 6, 2019
38
67
The computer (The network)
I’m just curious, if I were to set up a brand new, modern lab doing the sort of applications you describe, would the manufacturers set me up with equipment that requires terribly outdated computers and software to operate them? It would strike me as odd that development of scientific and medical instrumentation had somehow stopped cold in the 1990s...

Refurbished Sun Microsystems hardware is still being deployed in many, many new installations.

Case in point:

You can see racks with Sun gear mixed with modern machines at 3:03, 9:10 and 10:24
 

bunnspecial

macrumors G3
May 3, 2014
8,352
6,495
Kentucky
Refurbished Sun Microsystems hardware is still being deployed in many, many new installations.

I actually have a Sun UltraSparc 5 sitting in my office running Solaris. Up until ~10 years ago, it was used to control our workhorse Varian 500mhz NMR(mostly used for routine proton/c13/2d studies of the same). Around the same time we got the new 400mhz and 700mhz, the old 500 was upgraded to the same version of vNMRj running on Dell Xeon boxes that run RHEL.

We're unfortunately at a dead end on some of this stuff since Agilent killed off the NMR division a few years after acquiring Varian. We could have a company like Bruker come in and fit new spectrometers/probes/consoles to our magnets, but that would cost a lot of money(think well over $1 million for the three) and we'd also lose stuff like the ~$200K robotic sample changer on the 400(granted that hasn't been overly useful since auto-lock on the 400 went south, and Agilent just shrugs when you ask about fixing it).

Funny enough, though, the software is still more or less getting updated. Agilent did release it to open source, and I have a reasonably current version of openvNMRj built for OS X/macOS running in High Sierra on my MBP. They didn't release EVERYTHING to open source, though, and some of the underpinnings that actually talk to the spectrometer are proprietary and licensed. That means that I can't just plug the ethernet cable into my laptop and control it directly, but I can do off-line data processing and the guy in charge of them can update to newer versions of the software.
 

TheShortTimer

macrumors 68040
Mar 27, 2017
3,249
5,639
London, UK
Seriously though. I have a 12 Core Mac Pro 5,1 with 3.33Ghz X5680s; I've posted a couple things in the Catalina (macOS 10.15) section and there are a few people that just reply with "unsupported" or "buy a new mac it's almost 10 years old".

A f*****g 12 core 24 threaded machine will not be obsolete for another 15 years. I will never understand these people. It's even worse on some of the facebook groups, I'm in quite a few standard PC groups and people are shunned for having an Intel CPU that is two or three generations old.

Those attitudes are prevalent within many of the Mac Facebook groups. Rather than simply enjoy their computers, I've seen posts where people are fretting about what will happen when one day, their Mac is eventually unsupported and even declaring them to be "useless" or fit for the dumpster because Apple has ceased updates and compatible OS releases. Perhaps I'm looking at it from the wrong angle: my philosophy has always been that my hardware remains viable as long as it can fulfil my tasks. My goodness, I used a computer for years that had no support because the manufacturer went out of business.
 

Jubadub

macrumors 6502
Nov 1, 2017
342
425
I've seen posts where people are fretting about what will happen when one day, their Mac is eventually unsupported and even declaring them to be "useless" or fit for the dumpster because Apple has ceased updates and compatible OS releases.
I hope they find out they can hackintosh those, too, to have the latest version, and that too without any Apple EULA violation. Should last them until the ARM switch pops up.
 

ZeitGeist

Suspended
Mar 22, 2005
302
222
I hope they find out they can hackintosh those, too, to have the latest version, and that too without any Apple EULA violation. Should last them until the ARM switch pops up.

Easily done. Unsupported Macs can support latest MacOS thanks to hacks to the installer (and customer kexts) provided by dosdude1 who has a website by the same name. Some of the unsupported Macs need to have the WiFi/Bluetooth component upgraded, or newer video cards installed, but largely the patches work very well.
 
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swamprock

macrumors 65816
Aug 2, 2015
1,261
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Michigan
Easily done. Unsupported Macs can support latest MacOS thanks to hacks to the installer (and customer kexts) provided by dosdude1 who has a website by the same name. Some of the unsupported Macs need to have the WiFi/Bluetooth component upgraded, or newer video cards installed, but largely the patches work very well.

Stick around and you'll see him pop in here from time to time to comment. He's a PowerPC user as well, and a hell of a hardware modder. He put a G4 processor on my Bondi Blue iMac G3 CPU card :)
 

Jubadub

macrumors 6502
Nov 1, 2017
342
425
Yeah, when I saw him here, I immediately recognized him from the hackintosh app he made, and was like "damn, so he's an even cooler guy than I knew!".

There are quite a few "celebrities" that pop up here. Since I also love the PSP and especially the PSVita scene, of course I'm acquainted with Wololo, and so seeing KawaiiAurora in these parts was also a pretty cool moment. I got introduced to handheld usage of Macs on those platforms thanks to her portable Basilisk II review years back, which I really appreciated. Still got a Mac on my pocket for any occasional trip I make! Nothing like, say, swimming on the beach, then popping in Prince of Persia in some room. Accuracy is of course not perfect, but its portability is convenient, for the apps that work.
 
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z970

macrumors 68040
Jun 2, 2017
3,589
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Yeah, when I saw him here, I immediately recognized him from the hackintosh app he made, and was like "damn, so he's an even cooler guy than I knew!".

There are quite a few "celebrities" that pop up here. Since I also love the PSP and especially the PSVita scene, of course I'm acquainted with Wololo, and so seeing KawaiiAurora in these parts was also a pretty cool moment. I got introduced to handheld usage of Macs on those platforms thanks to her portable Basilisk II review years back, which I really appreciated. Still got a Mac on my pocket for any occasional trip I make! Nothing like, say, swimming on the beach, then popping in Prince of Persia in some room. Accuracy is of course not perfect, but its portability is convenient, for the apps that work.

In a small way, all of us here are "celebrities" thanks to our individual contributions and impacts to the scene. :)

At least, that's the way I see it.
 

ZeitGeist

Suspended
Mar 22, 2005
302
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Stick around and you'll see him pop in here from time to time to comment. He's a PowerPC user as well, and a hell of a hardware modder. He put a G4 processor on my Bondi Blue iMac G3 CPU card :)

Too late, he’s already in The Oubliette.
 

Jubadub

macrumors 6502
Nov 1, 2017
342
425
Wow. With this you could even use 68k Macs under System 7 to browse much of the web! Though of course it won't do much good when forms and hyperlinks are involved, since they become part of a picture, if I understood it right, but that's still something. Quite an interesting idea.

Edit: Whoa, nevermind, it seems there's a good level of interaction with this. This seems like something definitely worth checking out, at least on 68k Macs, which don't have access to Classilla.
 

Appleuser201

macrumors 6502
Original poster
Oct 12, 2018
401
221
Wow. With this you could even use 68k Macs under System 7 to browse much of the web! Though of course it won't do much good when forms and hyperlinks are involved, since they become part of a picture, if I understood it right, but that's still something. Quite an interesting idea.

Edit: Whoa, nevermind, it seems there's a good level of interaction with this. This seems like something definitely worth checking out, at least on 68k Macs, which don't have access to Classilla.
Thats great, all the videos I've seen (of 68k or early early PPC macs on the internet) are using the never ever to be mentioned Internet Explorer 5.1 mac edition.
 

bunnspecial

macrumors G3
May 3, 2014
8,352
6,495
Kentucky
Thats great, all the videos I've seen (of 68k or early early PPC macs on the internet) are using the never ever to be mentioned Internet Explorer 5.1 mac edition.

Admittedly I've never tried, but I didn't know IE 5.1 ran on 68K Mac. I though it was mostly an OS 8.6 and later thing, which is PPC.

The only browser I've ever had on 68K is Netscape, which was useless even 10 years ago. I think that there's also an older IE that works on it, but it's probably even less useful than Netscape. I'm interested to know that there is at least a moderately modern OS 9 browser.

I'm still amazed that even in ~2005, we were taking web-based testing at my high school in IE on iMacs. I didn't know much about Macs then(and those had enough issues to make me take dislike them), but I remember that they were all "5 Flavors" tray loaders. It wouldn't surprise me if they were running the shipping OS, which would have been 8.6 The tiny keyboards and puck mice were enough to leave a bad taste in my mouth(to this day, I still can't use those).
 

trevor12

macrumors member
Sep 10, 2015
38
9
there is needed someone to take some source code of browser from github ... and compile it for mac os 9, there are languages as basic, pascal (lazarus), lisp, c/c++, java (codewarrior)
 

Imixmuan

Suspended
Dec 18, 2010
526
426
Wow. With this you could even use 68k Macs under System 7 to browse much of the web! Though of course it won't do much good when forms and hyperlinks are involved, since they become part of a picture, if I understood it right, but that's still something. Quite an interesting idea.

Edit: Whoa, nevermind, it seems there's a good level of interaction with this. This seems like something definitely worth checking out, at least on 68k Macs, which don't have access to Classilla.

Yes, you can enter info forms and use hyperlinks. Tenox shows this is NT 3.51 using Internet Explorer 1.5. Gmail? Done.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mbd9qEzU5Q
 
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Appleuser201

macrumors 6502
Original poster
Oct 12, 2018
401
221
If you read Cameron's ordeal about updating Wamcom and changing it into Classilla, he mentions that its quite a kludge that barely builds. I'm not sure where the mention is; I think I read it on an Ars Technica comment in the "My Co-Workers Made Me Use OS 9 for a Week" or something similar, although I could be completely wrong. As much as many of us would enjoy having an updated browser for OS 9, the work involved for very few users is not for the faint of heart.

I forgot to mention... what about iCab? the latest version from 2008? Is it good for anything?
 
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