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h9826790

macrumors P6
Apr 3, 2014
16,656
8,587
Hong Kong
I downloaded Luxmark v3.1 and completed the test, the results is 28985 (I even seen a bit over 30000 somewhere in the middle of the test) but I'm still not convinced about CPU bottleneck.
It's up to you to believe it or not. But I successfully predicted that your card is normal, and able to get ~27000 in Luxmark to indicate that your GPU is actually able to perform normally on the cMP.

I can't believe that only 1 core is used when for example playing games. Or that pcie ver2.1 is the bottleneck against pcie v3, because I'm talking for more than half speed lost 3200 vs 7000 score points on time spy of 3dmark.
No matter how many cores the game / benchmark can use, there is always a main thread. And if the multi threading optimisation isn't good enough, then that main thread will become the bottleneck.

You can run Unigine Heaven (Extreme preset). This will run the benchmark in window mode. So that you can watch Activity Monitor at the same time. You should able see a process that stay at a bit more than 100%. That's the sign of CPU single thread limiting.
Screenshot 2023-07-13 at 8.18.41.png


But if you do the same thing for Luxmark, you won't see the same thing. The CPU loading is very low and never reach 100% during the test. That's why it's so effective to avoid CPU bottleneck on GPU benchmark.
Screenshot 2023-07-13 at 8.44.14.png


I think I can check speed of the individual cores to see if any is saturated and compare.
You can try, but most likely it won't work, the CPU will try to balance the workload between cores (to balance the heat exhaust, therefore, reduce the chance of having thermal throttling on a single core). e.g. For a ~110% CPU loading process, you may see ~9% loading to each core, but not 100% on one of the core.

The CPU works at more than 3 millions cycles per second. Even the process is CPU single thread limiting, it can be...

Core 0 complete the 1st step computation at first CPU cycle.
Core 1 use the result from Core 0 to perform step 2 computation at the 2nd cycle.
Core 2 use the result from Core 1 to perform step 3 computation at the 3rd cycle.
......

And after a second, each core performed around 300,000 computation already, but you can only see ~9% workload on each core, nothing is saturated. However, since each step must wait for the result from the last step (which is from another core), therefore, the process is still CPU single thread limiting.

CPU single thread limiting is the process itself cannot utilise multi core effectively, but not the CPU will only use one core thread to finish the whole process.

looking at GFX benchmarks are like something is pulling the card back from time to time, and then speed up again for a sec or 2 to full speed, eg, FPS are at ~30 and suddenly fall to single digits and the up again as a loop. I think I can check speed of the individual cores to see if any is saturated and compare.

For comparison, my HD7970 that is a simpler design card without power managing (ie Power limits) when power is requested it sits at a constant 14~15 FPS without ups and downs on the same tests and you can feel its playable in comparison with the Vega. HD7970 scores at about 2100, so Vega does only 50% more on scores but I find it worst at watching the scenes.
Unfortunately, it can also be due to CPU too slow. As I said before, the GPU driver is also a CPU single thread process. If it isn't fast enough to feed / control the GPU in that 0.1 second, the FPS will drop. But you can't even see any CPU limiting process in activity monitor, because that only happen at a split second. The average CPU loading with the whole second is still low.

In general, whenever you see the CPU loading is more than 100%. That can be CPU single thread limiting, and not a good benchmark for GPU (at least not good not that particular computer).

Then why the HD7970 can do better (more consistent)? TBH, I don't know, but it may be because the newer driver (for Vega) is expected to run on a faster CPU, which our Xeon simply can't catch up. But the 7970 is the Westmere generation's GPU, the driver should be expected to run nicely on a Westmere GPU. Or may be simply the HD7970 has better driver optimisation overall.

Anyway, Luxmark isn't a good software to compare performance between GPU. e.g. The Vega56 clearly isn't 10x faster than a HD7970. So, don't compare the numbers between different family's GPU. That's meaningless. However, it's a good tool to check if the GPU itself able to perform on a computer (when no other limitation). e.g. In your case, we know the Vega 56 is working because it can get ~28000.

I'm still not convinced about CPU bottleneck.
Another way to check if you are CPU single thread limiting on those 3D benchmarks is by reducing the resolution.

e.g. If you get ~30FPS at 1920x1080. Then you reduce the resolution to 1280x720, and still just get ~30FPS. Then you further reduce to 640x480, but still only get ~30FPS. Then it's clearly not GPU limiting, but something else. [N.B. the FPS may improve little bit due to some objects may be missing in lower resolution, therefore, lowered the CPU's work load. However, if the benchmark is GPU limiting, the FPS should increase a lot when you lower the resolution like that]

In Windows, you can use HWMonitor etc to monitor the PCIe bus interface loading. I am quite sure you won't see it stay at 100% during those benchmarks. You can have a try.

If the problem is not coming from the GPU, nor PCIe bus interface, but the CPU loading is above 100%. Then I think we can safely assume the problem is coming from the CPU single thread performance.
 

StormLord

macrumors member
Dec 23, 2009
74
10
Thank you very much of this detailed analysis, and yes, I do agree to all of these.
My only objection is, that core for core, the particular i7 (6th Gen) is only a measly 12% faster that the core of my X5675. I would find it very natural for a difference of up to 20-25%, but in my mind I can't explain the more than 100% difference.

Maybe the lack of AVX can magnitude the difference, and MAYBE the windows driver detects if there is AVX supported CPU or not and enable the futures accordingly, but still I want to find where is this lost potential :D

Maybe I should find an older PC, with like a 2nd Gen i7 so I can compare it apples to apples.
 

MisterAndrew

macrumors 68030
Original poster
Sep 15, 2015
2,895
2,390
Portland, Ore.
I just noticed the AMD Radeon PRO W7700. It's an x16 card with 190W TDP. That may be the most powerful GPU available for the 5,1 without Pixlas mod, but of course it requires Windows or Linux.
 

kmax3991

macrumors newbie
Aug 9, 2021
16
5
I just noticed the AMD Radeon PRO W7700. It's an x16 card with 190W TDP. That may be the most powerful GPU available for the 5,1 without Pixlas mod, but of course it requires Windows or Linux.
I personally would do the pixlas mod anyway. Our cMPs are old chaps now and some parts of the board might be stressed by this. And there are some pretty nice looking versions of the mod, even if one intended to leave the case open or have a glass cover.
 
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avro707

macrumors 68020
Dec 13, 2010
2,263
1,654
I just noticed the AMD Radeon PRO W7700. It's an x16 card with 190W TDP. That may be the most powerful GPU available for the 5,1 without Pixlas mod, but of course it requires Windows or Linux.
It is a shame it won’t work under MacOS.

If only there was a way for enterprising individuals to build in support for these.
 

MisterAndrew

macrumors 68030
Original poster
Sep 15, 2015
2,895
2,390
Portland, Ore.
I just remembered RDNA3 GPUs require AVX2 anyways right? So need a 7,1. It looks like prices have come down a lot on those recently, so little reason to keep using 5,1 or older.
 

KevinClark

macrumors 6502
Feb 28, 2019
349
42
Bonjour à tous est ce que la W6600 RADEON PRO Blue nécessite d'être flashée ou pas pour fonctionner dans un Mac Pro 5.1 (je ne parle pas du flash pour le boot screen mais bien du flashage pour fonctionner )

merci
 
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avro707

macrumors 68020
Dec 13, 2010
2,263
1,654
Bonjour à tous est ce que la W6600 RADEON PRO Blue nécessite d'être flashée ou pas pour fonctionner dans un Mac Pro 5.1 (je ne parle pas du flash pour le boot screen mais bien du flashage pour fonctionner )

merci

Yes, the W6600 will need to be flashed.
 

KevinClark

macrumors 6502
Feb 28, 2019
349
42
Hello everyone, does the W6600 RADEON PRO Blue need to be flashed or not to work in a Mac Pro 5.1 (I'm not talking about flash for the boot screen but rather flashing to work)

Thanks
 

tsialex

Contributor
Jun 13, 2016
13,454
13,601
Hello everyone, does the W6600 RADEON PRO Blue need to be flashed or not to work in a Mac Pro 5.1 (I'm not talking about flash for the boot screen but rather flashing to work)

Thanks

All NAVI 2x GPUs require patching the firmware. This one is a NAVI 21 23.
 
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joevt

macrumors 604
Jun 21, 2012
6,963
4,257
try this :) (run in terminal assuming your in the same directory as the file: php frame-buffer-lister.php ) edit: remember to install otool, typing otool into terminal should trigger the xcode command line utilities installer
I updated this script to work with 32-bit and 64-bit kexts from Snow Leopard to Monterey. I've attached the results.

It's a perl script because I think perl has better regex than php and php doesn't come with Monterey.

The perl script doesn't loop through files. That is done by the shell script in the BBEdit worksheet. The shell script loops through all the installed macOS systems by version number (I have Mac OS X 10.4.11 to macOS 12.7.2). It looks for ATI or AMD Controller kexts, loops through the architectures (i386 and x86_64), uses lipo to extract each architecture as a separate binary, and then scans the binary for framebuffer names and data.

Some related links (that I have not really looked at):
https://www.tonymacx86.com/threads/radeon-compatibility-guide-ati-amd-graphics-cards.171291/
https://www.tonymacx86.com/threads/...ebuffers-for-high-sierra-using-clover.235409/
https://www.insanelymac.com/forum/topic/249642-editing-custom-personalities-for-ati-radeon-hd45xx/
https://github.com/JogleLew/amd-framebuffer-utility
https://github.com/archfan/ATI-Kext-Utility
 

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mrkapqa

macrumors 6502
Jan 7, 2012
497
88
Italy, Bolzano/Bozen
Hello ,

would like to request if someone with the proper exerience could backport the drivers if possible to let use Polaris Radeon VII Pro also under Mojave?

That would be real nice.
The card is on the market , not cheap, but seems a good graphics card.

Thanks.
 

tsialex

Contributor
Jun 13, 2016
13,454
13,601
Hello ,

would like to request if someone with the proper exerience could backport the drivers if possible to let use Polaris Radeon VII Pro also under Mojave?

That would be real nice.
The card is on the market , not cheap, but seems a good graphics card.

Thanks.

There is no Polaris Radeon VII Pro, you mixed two different generations of GPUs into one.

The GPU correct name is AMD Radeon VII Pro and is supported by Mojave starting with 10.14.5. Exact same GPU as Radeon VII, buy it instead.
 

mrkapqa

macrumors 6502
Jan 7, 2012
497
88
Italy, Bolzano/Bozen
ye, thanks for the clarification, i meant Vega Radeon VII Pro, and have read it is supported only from 10.15.1 , but maybe then i can forego this conclusion? as seen on ma vid cards eu
System requirements:


- Apple Mac Pro 4,1 (2009) or Mac Pro 5,1 (2010-2012)
- installed macOS Catalina 10.15.1 or later
- native support by macOS Catalina, Big Sur, Monterey and Ventura/Sonoma via patcher, no drivers needed
Radeon VII is not available easily, could by if available, but seem offer only used.
 

tsialex

Contributor
Jun 13, 2016
13,454
13,601
ye, thanks for the clarification, i meant Vega Radeon VII Pro, and have read it is supported only from 10.15.1 , but maybe then i can forego this conclusion? as seen on ma vid cards eu

The card is called AMD Radeon VII Pro.

VII is supported from 10.14.5, you can spoof the PCIe ID for the one from normal non-Pro VII and make it work with Mojave.

Radeon VII is not available easily, could by if available, but seem offer only used.

VII Pro will also be a 2nd hand card, even more so at this price point, was $1900 brand new at launch.

AMD stopped production of this GPU around 3 years ago, but seems that Amazon still have it for ~$450, who knows if these are really brand new cards/NOS.
 

mrkapqa

macrumors 6502
Jan 7, 2012
497
88
Italy, Bolzano/Bozen
they seem new, with warranty,
but maybe they aren't.
still 300 euro for a 5 year old product, but i guess for professionals a bargain.

have read on this forum here that also radeon vii can use with 10bit monitor, 10bit monitor output; but for radeon vii pro this is clearly stated, so maybe and advantage for this card, besides it use 50W less and need no pixlas mod therefore (/if not overtaxed?)

cheers+happy summer.

(don't know about the spoofing; if it doesn't work with Mojave Oout of box am wary to by, rather find Radeon VII sometime or else.).
EDit: checked again, you were right, card is refurbished, for 310 euro.
but then oon ebay you can get new with warranty for 2 years for around 350 euro;
 

AlexMaximus

macrumors 65816
Aug 15, 2006
1,232
578
A400M Base
they seem new, with warranty,
but maybe they aren't.
still 300 euro for a 5 year old product, but i guess for professionals a bargain.

have read on this forum here that also radeon vii can use with 10bit monitor, 10bit monitor output; but for radeon vii pro this is clearly stated, so maybe and advantage for this card, besides it use 50W less and need no pixlas mod therefore (/if not overtaxed?)

cheers+happy summer.

(don't know about the spoofing; if it doesn't work with Mojave Oout of box am wary to by, rather find Radeon VII sometime or else.).
EDit: checked again, you were right, card is refurbished, for 310 euro.
but then oon ebay you can get new with warranty for 2 years for around 350 euro;
Since OCLP 2.0.1 works so extremely well with Sonoma and very soon with Sequoa, I decided to get this card because I have the original Apple Cinema Display with Mini Display Port that this card offers. I have recently sold my 6800XT because it can’t go beyond Monteray. I just received a brand new Pro VII Card sealed in box new card from store in Slovenia for 305 Euros. Once MacVid card in Poland has flashed it for me, I can report back how it works.
 
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AlexMaximus

macrumors 65816
Aug 15, 2006
1,232
578
A400M Base
With EnableGOP, why would people use MacVidCards? I'm not saying don't, I'm just curious for the reason.
Thank you for the reminder. That was originally my intention, (to use EnableGOP and just use the spoof) but MVC told me they do not offer this spoof service, they do the firmware flash only. What would you recommend? Since I got the Pro VII Workstation card, there is one step less to do as MacSoundsolutions mentioned in his YT. To Do a proper risk assessment, I will need to read more about the process. Did it work for you, which gpu do you have at the moment?
To answer your question of the Why to go with the flash service of MVC in Poland, -Over the last 6 years, they have flashed many card for me. Every card was a supreme performer, I was always very happy with their excellent service for a reasonable fee. Never had problems, always had boot screens as usual with many great mutant cards. They even flashed my Alienware card. A top notch, flawless service for years in my case way before the early days of open core.
I am very pragmatic when it comes to software. I only do, what I am really good at. Fiddling around with software code is not a part of that. The fee for that is money well spent for a flawless and continuing good experience with the legendary MP5.1.
 
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