Another beta got released today... which probably means another opportunity for Apple to let us down.
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MP All Models AMD Radeon RX 6800 XT / 6900 XT for macOS?
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No change so far as I can see in beta 7.
Personally I've always been of the belief that the drivers, if they come, will come in a beta 1. So I'm crossing my fingers for 11.4 beta 1 - and getting annoyed at how many betas 11.3 is getting, thus making us wait longer for 11.4!
I've been wavering between optimistic and pessimistic for some time, but I am taking increased confidence from the recent leaks.
On Feb 5th the CEO of OTOY Tweeted to someone to say that "Octane X PR7+ works with Big Navi cards - but it may require 11.3, will confirm asap". (He never did confirm any more details - perhaps because he was told to shut up by Apple?)
The fact that he said it "works", and gave a specific version number of his product, definitely gave the impression that they had tested it, and made specific changes in their code to allow it to work. Both of which could mean that they have had access to beta drivers from Apple.
A month later, on March 5th, there was a comment on the OTOY forum by Beppe, an Octane developer from Italy, who said that "AMD Big Navi 6800/6900 XT support in Apple Metal driver should be already available in Mac Os 11.3 beta 3, so they should be supported in the upcoming 11.3 stable update.". When I later asked him for clarification, he said that they were told by Apple that support would come in 11.3, and he didn't know why it wasn't yet there; he'd not been able to test anything 6000-series related himself due to there being no cards available in Italy.
More recently there was a similar post from a lead developer on the Redshift forum (another 3D rendering app), saying something like "Yes as you've heard, Big Navi support is coming to Big Sur - we've not tested performance yet but hope to soon."
Of course the 11.3 betas haven't brought support, and in fact made things slightly worse, as the Navi21, Navi22 and Navi23 framebuffer definitions were removed from AMDRadeonX6000Framebuffer.kext, meaning a 6000-series card now won't even give a picture. However it always seemed odd to me that those framebuffers - which weren't complete anyway, and looked to be interim/test definitions - were included in X6000 at all, as that's the series of kexts used by Navi, the 5000-series cards. So it could be theorised that removing those definitions from X6000 was always going to happen before the real Big Navi drivers arrived, presumably in a new series of X7000 kexts.
After seeing the remarks described above I did wonder if maybe there was a chance that 11.3 beta 4, 5, 6 or 7 could add the drivers, but I never expected it. I've always thought that a new feature like this would debut in a beta 1; it's not good development practice to add new features in an extra beta, which are meant to be just for bugfixes to the features introduced in a beta 1.
My theory (hope) is that support was meant to come in 11.3 - hence that fact being communicated to OTOY - but then it got delayed by Apple for some reason. Making 11.4 beta 1 a plausible candidate, and one I am quietly confident about.
Of course this is all still speculation, and we have been burned before. The wait continues..
Personally I've always been of the belief that the drivers, if they come, will come in a beta 1. So I'm crossing my fingers for 11.4 beta 1 - and getting annoyed at how many betas 11.3 is getting, thus making us wait longer for 11.4!
I've been wavering between optimistic and pessimistic for some time, but I am taking increased confidence from the recent leaks.
On Feb 5th the CEO of OTOY Tweeted to someone to say that "Octane X PR7+ works with Big Navi cards - but it may require 11.3, will confirm asap". (He never did confirm any more details - perhaps because he was told to shut up by Apple?)
The fact that he said it "works", and gave a specific version number of his product, definitely gave the impression that they had tested it, and made specific changes in their code to allow it to work. Both of which could mean that they have had access to beta drivers from Apple.
A month later, on March 5th, there was a comment on the OTOY forum by Beppe, an Octane developer from Italy, who said that "AMD Big Navi 6800/6900 XT support in Apple Metal driver should be already available in Mac Os 11.3 beta 3, so they should be supported in the upcoming 11.3 stable update.". When I later asked him for clarification, he said that they were told by Apple that support would come in 11.3, and he didn't know why it wasn't yet there; he'd not been able to test anything 6000-series related himself due to there being no cards available in Italy.
More recently there was a similar post from a lead developer on the Redshift forum (another 3D rendering app), saying something like "Yes as you've heard, Big Navi support is coming to Big Sur - we've not tested performance yet but hope to soon."
Of course the 11.3 betas haven't brought support, and in fact made things slightly worse, as the Navi21, Navi22 and Navi23 framebuffer definitions were removed from AMDRadeonX6000Framebuffer.kext, meaning a 6000-series card now won't even give a picture. However it always seemed odd to me that those framebuffers - which weren't complete anyway, and looked to be interim/test definitions - were included in X6000 at all, as that's the series of kexts used by Navi, the 5000-series cards. So it could be theorised that removing those definitions from X6000 was always going to happen before the real Big Navi drivers arrived, presumably in a new series of X7000 kexts.
After seeing the remarks described above I did wonder if maybe there was a chance that 11.3 beta 4, 5, 6 or 7 could add the drivers, but I never expected it. I've always thought that a new feature like this would debut in a beta 1; it's not good development practice to add new features in an extra beta, which are meant to be just for bugfixes to the features introduced in a beta 1.
My theory (hope) is that support was meant to come in 11.3 - hence that fact being communicated to OTOY - but then it got delayed by Apple for some reason. Making 11.4 beta 1 a plausible candidate, and one I am quietly confident about.
Of course this is all still speculation, and we have been burned before. The wait continues..
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One other piece of recent news: Pictures have emerged of what appears to be a pre-production Radeon Pro 6800XT.
There's a VideoCardz article describing the leak: AMD Radeon Pro with Navi 21 GLXL GPU
And here's the pictures:
This could be good news. The existence of a Radeon Pro version could be some encouragement to Apple to bring out drivers - given how the gamer 6000-series cards don't even fit in the Mac Pro 7,1 (as I learned in this thread!) or eGPU enclosures. It could even be a first step to there being a 6000-series MPX? The latter might be a stretch, but having a Radeon Pro 6800XT does at least make it possible for a future MPX version to appear.
There's a VideoCardz article describing the leak: AMD Radeon Pro with Navi 21 GLXL GPU
And here's the pictures:
This could be good news. The existence of a Radeon Pro version could be some encouragement to Apple to bring out drivers - given how the gamer 6000-series cards don't even fit in the Mac Pro 7,1 (as I learned in this thread!) or eGPU enclosures. It could even be a first step to there being a 6000-series MPX? The latter might be a stretch, but having a Radeon Pro 6800XT does at least make it possible for a future MPX version to appear.
I agree with @The-Bloke that there is more likely to be new drivers in the beta 1 of a new patch rather than later betas. Generally the SDLC of Apple's betas refine during beta iterations and update on full version changes. Also Radeon Pro cards would be more up the alley of what Apple wants to write drivers for in the first place. I'd be willing to bet that they are working on those Pro cards and will work backwards to support consumer cards from there, since they are the same architecture.
Trying to read tea leaves via 3rd party Tweets for future hardware support is absurd. Apple should provide a support roadmap for professional users like every other vendor. How can anyone plan procurement without one? How can you have confidence in a (very expensive) platform without it? It's all so confusing to me.
The simplest conclusion is typically the right one: Apple doesn't give a f**k about you. They only care about your wallet.
If this company had any respect for it's consumers, the Mac Pro would look very different today and wouldn't cost more than a CAR. Bizarre, is putting the situation mildly. This is epic corporate level trolling.
Meh... Although I'm extremely annoyed (and impatient) the most likely scenario is that they are getting some MPX 6000 series GPUs ready and let's face it, there's no reason for them to provide drivers before those are available. Apple's idea of expansion is you buying expansions from them...
I have a Mac Pro 7,1 with a 580X (poor thing) and I've been waiting for the 6000 series pretty much since the MacPro's launch to upgrade the GPU, super annoying but those 6000 series card should be good for ~3-5 years depending on what you use it for.
And yes, I'm writing this to make myself feel better
Meh... Although I'm extremely annoyed (and impatient) the most likely scenario is that they are getting some MPX 6000 series GPUs ready and let's face it, there's no reason for them to provide drivers before those are available. Apple's idea of expansion is you buying expansions from them...
I have a Mac Pro 7,1 with a 580X (poor thing) and I've been waiting for the 6000 series pretty much since the MacPro's launch to upgrade the GPU, super annoying but those 6000 series card should be good for ~3-5 years depending on what you use it for.
And yes, I'm writing this to make myself feel better
It's also just a little soon for all the dramatics. There's a GPU shortage going on, and there is no Pro version yet. Apple would be putting out a driver for about a dozen people that could actually get the card, most in this forum.
There's pretty broad agreement among insiders that Big Navi is coming, and Mark Gurman already said more upgrades are likely coming for the Intel Mac Pro. No one needs to take the theatrics to 11. Most of us would be waiting for an MPX module anyway.
Edit: I also forgot it’s a PANDEMIC and Apple employees only have limited access to their hardware labs and are all having to work from home. Sheesh. Apple Silicon development and GPU drivers seem like they’re behind too.
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Apple has all sorts of reasons why they can't or won't do something/anything but they've said SweetFA. What harm would it do to let us know. As it has been said, people have to make plans ($) and other companies provide road maps. Too soon for panic or histrionics? When is the right time? I've switched to DaVinci Resolve. I can't wait forever. The least Apple could do is to give us some info. Maybe they give a sh*t maybe they don't but right now from where I stand it seems they don't.
Has anyone sent an e-mail to Apple Leadership outlining this concern? I have heard of people having luck with this in the past.
@Benjamin Disapfectation - This question is not directed only to you, but everyone voicing a similar question in this thread.
They did this with the W5700X and then everyone got all worked up anyway.
Apple loses either way basically. If they announce now they start a freak out where every one complains every day they don’t ship.
It seems like at this point everyone here is in agreement that an MPX module is at least a few months away, if not more. Emails to Apple aren’t going to speed that up. Either you deal with that, or you move on.
Can’t think why they would care about that.
For businesses using these things, it just helps us plan ahead. Roadmaps are important.
It's a good idea. Instead of just griping, why not gripe directly to Apple. I would say though that Apple should be paying attention; perhaps they have a minion reading this forum. (Yeah, right.)
And in the context of this thread, if you’re using the presence of a beta driver in a beta version of macOS to do planning then you’re bad at planning for a business.
When there is an official product offering there will be an official product offering. Apple’s dates seem to be slipping across the board so I don’t even think if they announced a date for actual product release they’d be able to keep it right now.
People are projecting this as Apple somehow not caring about the Mac Pro, and as far as I can tell, Apple’s whole product release schedule and software schedule across their entire product line is delayed. There are important Apple Silicon driver updates that actually were promised that have not shown up in the betas either. This situation is not unique to the AMD drivers.
Apple looks to be missing dates on both the Apple Silicon MacBook Pro and iMac. AirTags is MIA. Apple Silicon fixes that were promised early this year haven't even hit the betas yet. And there is a massive chip shortage. If the drivers only get delayed from 11.3 to 11.4 things are actually in pretty good shape. And if you look around the internets, there are a lot of whispers that the drivers were _always_ supposed to hit in 11.4, and they don't know why Otoy said 11.3.
Again, I don't really know why you think a tech company, with everything going on right now, could actually provide a stable roadmap. It's not like Tim Cook is going to get someone's email and go "Whelp, Apples product roadmap is a disaster right now, but lets get everyone back in the office tomorrow cause this guy wants his 6800 XT drivers."
I mean, if you run a business, I'm pretty sure you probably put Force Majeure clauses in your contracts. Because just like Apple it's difficult to hit timelines and run a stable business during a global emergency.
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What you're describing is a company that doesn't communicate with it's consumers and just springs releases on them - something that's true of Apple on the non-Pro side of things as well.
They could just say "we plan on providing support for X hardware expansion in the near future," or "we will support X product for Y years with software updates given the current release cadence," or "silicon supply has limited our ability to produce MPX module X, which has now slipped into Q3 rather than Q2," or "we are fully committed to supporting the Intel MP for many years to come, and this is how."
Pretty normal PR stuff for most companies that work with people who rely on their products to get stuff done. Imagine if you worked in photography and Canon was just like, "nope, won't tell you if we're going to keep releasing lenses and support for that $6,500 camera you just bought from us".
AMD, Nvidia, and Intel regularly release roadmaps to varying degrees of success and ambition. It's really, really normal. Apple is hyper-secretive and the outlier in this space. It's not fair to bitch and complain, but it's also not unreasonable to expect more transparency either.
They could just say "we plan on providing support for X hardware expansion in the near future," or "we will support X product for Y years with software updates given the current release cadence," or "silicon supply has limited our ability to produce MPX module X, which has now slipped into Q3 rather than Q2," or "we are fully committed to supporting the Intel MP for many years to come, and this is how."
Pretty normal PR stuff for most companies that work with people who rely on their products to get stuff done. Imagine if you worked in photography and Canon was just like, "nope, won't tell you if we're going to keep releasing lenses and support for that $6,500 camera you just bought from us".
AMD, Nvidia, and Intel regularly release roadmaps to varying degrees of success and ambition. It's really, really normal. Apple is hyper-secretive and the outlier in this space. It's not fair to bitch and complain, but it's also not unreasonable to expect more transparency either.
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OK, I'd not heard about that. Have you got a link for that quote?
Trouble is, it's still incorrect info. The forthcoming Big Sur update does not have drivers, as we know. I suppose there's a very small chance that they will add the drivers in beta 8 (if there is one). But that'd be very unusual practice. 11.4 beta 1 is far more plausible.
I theorised earlier that OTOY were told by Apple that drivers were coming in 11.3, then it got delayed. But surely they know by now that the 11.3 betas don't have drivers - even if they're not checking the betas themselves, I told developer Beppe on their forum, and someone has told the CEO on Twitter. So it's odd that a new quote is still saying that it's coming in the "forthcoming Big Sur update" (which to me reads like it must refer to 11.3, not 11.4.)
You mentioned the new quote is from the CTO (Malcolm Taylor?) not the CEO (Jules Urbach) who commented previously, so I guess maybe they're not all in the loop on this and the CTO is just repeating the same incorrect information they were originally given.
Anyway I'm not sure if we can read much into this new quote - it seems to just be repeating what they've previously said, which at this time is still incorrect.
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If Apple announces new iMacs tomorrow and they don't have any AMD 6000 series GPUs in them, we're going to either wait a very long time for drivers or they won't be released at all.
You learned wrong. I have the RX 6900 XT (Sapphire) mounted in the 7.1 since February and it's working "just great". In boot camp of course. It fits perfectly, and it's in here with my RX 580. When I boot to windows I can use both cards at the same time.
It will be good news indeed when it works in Big Sur, but the stuff that's really going to drive this card is in Windows such as Cyberpunk. Also, some of the GPU using apps such as "folding" and the Adobe apps make good use of it too.
Let's all keep our fingers crossed.
Yeah not all of the 6000 series cards have stupidly oversized coolers. Gigabyte GAMING cards are well under 300mm. Same with the AMD reference design cards.
I just got unlucky picking a card that was way too long without checking. Sold it for what I paid and now waiting for stock of a compatible card.
I just got unlucky picking a card that was way too long without checking. Sold it for what I paid and now waiting for stock of a compatible card.
Right, because everyone bought a hyper-expensive Mac Pro 7.1 to play a video game in Windows...