Apple CAN’T do AAA gaming [Merged Megathread]

[Ethosik]

It’s just not worth it for Apple to cater to the gaming community more than what they are doing now (the RGB loving build it yourself loving crowd).

macOS as gaming would be a non starter for me. I have over 500 games on Steam and a dozen on Epic (thanks to exclusives). Even if Apple were to make 10 MUST HAVE games, I wouldn’t go out and get a Mac just for gaming since I can’t play the rest of my library.

This is why I got rid of my PlayStation 4. Years of gathering dust for only two titles is not really worth it. Same story with my PS5. I got one, turned it on to set it up. And I have not turned it on since. Returnal looked cool but that’s just one title.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

Would Apple's stance on computer games change if its lucrative mobile gaming business was affected by regulation? Could the openness of iOS force Apple to focus more on computer games?

No. Apple’s “focus” on games as it is, is primarily in enabling the creation of them via their SDK and the hardware they put into the systems. It’s the developers that go “I could make money selling games on this” and they create the games as a result. No games for the Mac is because developers don’t find it profitable. Regulation would not affect the number of Macs in the world.

 

[diamond.g]

No. Apple’s “focus” on games as it is, is primarily in enabling the creation of them via their SDK and the hardware they put into the systems. It’s the developers that go “I could make money selling games on this” and they create the games as a result. No games for the Mac is because developers don’t find it profitable. Regulation would not affect the number of Macs in the world.

It is weird that for how unprofitable making games on Macs are said to be Feral, Aspyr, Larian, and 4A Games still make them and still seem to be in business.

 

[Homy]

Core, a free game creation tool powered by Unreal 4 is coming to Mac and iOS this summer.

 

[diamond.g]

Core, a free game creation tool powered by Unreal 4 is coming to Mac and iOS this summer.

So Roblox?

 

[Homy]

So Roblox?

Roblox uses its own engine Ogre3D, ImPlicitNgine so it's not easy as Core to bring it to Mac.

 

[ThunderSkunk]

I'm trying to imagine them suddenly deciding they want to turn the mac into a video game platform, when they've already put as much effort into turning iOS into that as they want to. It makes absolutely no sense at all, goes against everything they've done so far & would hang their productivity-focused customer base out to dry. Therefore they will almost certainly do it.

 

[diamond.g]

Roblox uses its own engine Ogre3D, ImPlicitNgine so it's not easy as Core to bring it to Mac.

I was mostly refering to it being Roblox but with UE.

 

[russell_314]

Good games are not about graphics. Good games are about gameplay. Great technical specs such as amazing graphics, can attract players, though.

The problem with the Mac is not the performance, and it has never been. The problem with it is the audience, the userbase.

What about the Mac? It was reported that in 2018 there were more than 100 million active Macs worldwide. That number may have risen, but I do not have the statistics for 2022. While it may be more than 100 million, it has probably not reached 200 million. Out of 100 million Mac users, not all of them are gamers.

Just to address a few points you made

I agree with you that good games aren't about graphics to a point. Yes it doesn't have to have the graphics of RDR 2 for example but I think there is a minimum most people expect on a larger screen.

This goes to your comment about there being 100 million active Macs worldwide. How many of those have Intel integrated graphics? We might give the newest Intel Macs with 8th gen or newer but how many are older Intel Macs without a GPU are out there? Those aren't going to run newer games. I'd be willing to bet that out of that 100 million less than 10 million would meet minimum hardware requirements for games.

Also up to now there has been no need to make games for macOS because Boot Camp and Windows. Maybe Apple Silicon will be a good thing because it means there is hardware out there that can't run Windows games so perhaps someone will see this as a market opportunity.

As to the general topic for game devs to make a game for the Mac they would have to decide who is their potential customers.

People going out and buying a new Mac for their games? Probably not because no one would buy a Mac for gaming.

People that work with Macs on the road and want to play a game on their off time? Maybe because even people who are dedicated gamers might not want to carry two laptops when traveling. As someone who has flown a lot I will say a heavy carry on bag is not fun.

The target customer could never be the current RGB gamer who spend more time running benchmarks, updating their BIOS, and adjusting clock settings than playing games. They buy a computer for more of a tinker toy than anything. I don't see Apple ever making some type of kit computer that lights up like a child's toy.

 

[russell_314]

Agreed, but it’s different audiences. Those games are games people play while waiting in line at the store.

No not really. Yes some people play them while in line but I don't think it's a fair description because it implies that people only play them because they are stuck in line. Yes I'm sure that's true with quite a few people but not everyone or I bet not even the majority. Some people don't have any type of traditional computer so they play mobile games at home. This is more true with the newer generation. As the iPad commercial says "What's a computer?" Just like laptops replaced desktops I think the mobile device will replace laptops for the majority of people.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

It is weird that for how unprofitable making games on Macs are said to be Feral, Aspyr, Larian, and 4A Games still make them and still seem to be in business.

Feral and Aspyr were both mainly porters, so that was their niche. And, though they are both known for being porters, it looks like Aspyr no longer produces Mac titles, Larian’s only got the one game, so it makes sense for them and of the games 4A Games has released only 2 of those 5 were for macOS. I WILL make a small correction, though. It’s not that there’s NO profit to be made. If someone else has spent the millions for original development and you can license a game for “not very much” then sure, there’s profit to be made.

The key for the larger development houses is that there’s not ENOUGH profit to be made to be worth the hassle. So, the only companies you’ll see putting a lot of effort into the Mac are those that specifically aren’t already making huge amounts in the Windows or console market. It’s all the money left to them to try to make.

 

[StudioMacs]

No not really. Yes some people play them while in line but I don't think it's a fair description because it implies that people only play them because they are stuck in line. Yes I'm sure that's true with quite a few people but not everyone or I bet not even the majority. Some people don't have any type of traditional computer so they play mobile games at home. This is more true with the newer generation. As the iPad commercial says "What's a computer?" Just like laptops replaced desktops I think the mobile device will replace laptops for the majority of people.

I do agree with your point, but saying iOS games are games "people play while waiting in line" was a simple way of differentiating between the audience of gamers who will play whichever is the least objectionable game on their phone versus the audience who follows console gaming news and rumors waiting for the next Zelda, Mario, Horizon, Gran Truismo etc...

 

[leman]

So, since I do want to play Elden Ring and consoles are impossible to buy, I decided to go to the dark side and purchased an Asus gaming laptop on sale, for what I consider a relatively good price. Certainly cheaper than a comparable compact gaming box would cost me. My model comes with a Ryzen 5900HX and a Radeon RX 6800M, which is supposed to be one of the fastest available mobile laptops, especially in that price segment.

What surprised me the most is that in 3Dmark this laptop is barely faster than my M1 Max. It scored 20000 in Wld Life extreme, the Max scored 17500. The ASUS was drawing close to 200 watts, the M1 just around 50. Makes one wonder.

As to the rest, it’s really insane how god awful Windows is. Took me about three hours to update everything to the newest Windows 11, connecting the controller was a chore, advertisement everywhere, need to go through four different management panels (with different UIs) to find some basic settings. And I definitely didn’t miss all that driver dance.

I will keep it as a gaming machine, plus I do need something to test my game code I will be porting to Vulkan (shudder), but man, I really forgot how much Macs spoil one.

 

[diamond.g]

So, since I do want to play Elden Ring and consoles are impossible to buy, I decided to go to the dark side and purchased an Asus gaming laptop on sale, for what I consider a relatively good price. Certainly cheaper than a comparable compact gaming box would cost me. My model comes with a Ryzen 5900HX and a Radeon RX 6800M, which is supposed to be one of the fastest available mobile laptops, especially in that price segment.

What surprised me the most is that in 3Dmark this laptop is barely faster than my M1 Max. It scored 20000 in Wld Life extreme, the Max scored 17500. The ASUS was drawing close to 200 watts, the M1 just around 50. Makes one wonder.

As to the rest, it’s really insane how god awful Windows is. Took me about three hours to update everything to the newest Windows 11, connecting the controller was a chore, advertisement everywhere, need to go through four different management panels (with different UIs) to find some basic settings. And I definitely didn’t miss all that driver dance.

I will keep it as a gaming machine, plus I do need something to test my game code I will be porting to Vulkan (shudder), but man, I really forgot how much Macs spoil one.

I would take back and get a Xbox Series S as they are widely available (can run to target and pick one up).

 

[russell_314]

So, since I do want to play Elden Ring and consoles are impossible to buy, I decided to go to the dark side and purchased an Asus gaming laptop on sale, for what I consider a relatively good price. Certainly cheaper than a comparable compact gaming box would cost me. My model comes with a Ryzen 5900HX and a Radeon RX 6800M, which is supposed to be one of the fastest available mobile laptops, especially in that price segment.

What surprised me the most is that in 3Dmark this laptop is barely faster than my M1 Max. It scored 20000 in Wld Life extreme, the Max scored 17500. The ASUS was drawing close to 200 watts, the M1 just around 50. Makes one wonder.

As to the rest, it’s really insane how god awful Windows is. Took me about three hours to update everything to the newest Windows 11, connecting the controller was a chore, advertisement everywhere, need to go through four different management panels (with different UIs) to find some basic settings. And I definitely didn’t miss all that driver dance.

I will keep it as a gaming machine, plus I do need something to test my game code I will be porting to Vulkan (shudder), but man, I really forgot how much Macs spoil one.

Consoles are impossible to buy? Where I live Walmart has an endless supply of Xbox Series S ?

I bought a gaming desktop. A laptop GPU will always be weaker than the desktop version of the same name. Of course if you need portability then a laptop is much better. I don’t worry too much about benchmarks. Everyone seems obsessed with benchmarks on both the Mac and PC side but what I care about is how the game looks.

 

[diamond.g]

Consoles are impossible to buy? Where I live Walmart has an endless supply of Xbox Series S ?

I bought a gaming desktop. A laptop GPU will always be weaker than the desktop version of the same name. Of course if you need portability then a laptop is much better. I don’t worry too much about benchmarks. Everyone seems obsessed with benchmarks on both the Mac and PC side but what I care about is how the game looks.

I am not sure if Elden Ring has been fixed on PC yet (I know it works fine on Deck) but maybe @leman can let us know.

 

[russell_314]

I do agree with your point, but saying iOS games are games "people play while waiting in line" was a simple way of differentiating between the audience of gamers who will play whichever is the least objectionable game on their phone versus the audience who follows console gaming news and rumors waiting for the next Zelda, Mario, Horizon, Gran Truismo etc...

I think you’re right that perhaps PC and console gamers are generally more loyal to series of games and have a more enthusiastic audience. I think this is because of phone gaming is relatively new compared to console or PC gaming. People grow up playing certain games on a console but now want to play the current version as adults. I think phone games will get to that level as time goes on.

 

[russell_314]

I am not sure if Elden Ring has been fixed on PC yet (I know it works fine on Deck) but maybe @leman can let us know.

I’m not sure if it’s fixed but I know people at work play it on PC. It’s all I hear them talking about ?‍♂️?

 

[diamond.g]

I’m not sure if it’s fixed but I know people at work play it on PC. It’s all I hear them talking about ?‍♂️?

PC players do put up with a lot of jank. lol

 

[leman]

I would take back and get a Xbox Series S as they are widely available (can run to target and pick one up).

Consoles are impossible to buy? Where I live Walmart has an endless supply of Xbox Series S ?

But I don’t want an Xbox Series S ? I want a PS4 or something. Anyway, a PC lets me play games from my steam library, so that’s something.

I bought a gaming desktop. A laptop GPU will always be weaker than the desktop version of the same name. Of course if you need portability then a laptop is much better.

I also thought about building an ITX box, but the laptop actually ended up being considerably cheaper for a similar spec. I don’t have a TV or a display, so I don’t have anywhere to plug it in anyway. A laptop gives me flexibility of gaming in the study or on the projector. And it’s one more dev platform to test on, which is an added benefit.

I don’t worry too much about benchmarks. Everyone seems obsessed with benchmarks on both the Mac and PC side but what I care about is how the game looks.

Agreed. I was just pointing out that Apple tech is seriously impressive.

 

[GrumpyCoder]

My model comes with a Ryzen 5900HX and a Radeon RX 6800M, which is supposed to be one of the fastest available mobile laptops, especially in that price segment.

Not sure where that info is coming from. I'd stay away from Radeon as far as possible unless it has to be dirt cheap as that's what AMD can do. Otherwise Razer has 30x0 laptops which are very good.

Took me about three hours to update everything to the newest Windows 11, connecting the controller was a chore, advertisement everywhere, need to go through four different management panels (with different UIs) to find some basic settings. And I definitely didn’t miss all that driver dance.

Compatibility with some hardware is bad with the Windows installer, it can be painful. Updates not so much, they just install fine. Three hours seems excessive for Windows, this usually works much faster for me but I'm only using Windows for graphics/games/developing. My last few macOS updates took that long, I miss the old OS X times when things were fast. Recently tried to Update Xcode via App Store and aborted after hours because it was so slow downloading. Then grabbed a full Xcode version from the developer site which downloaded with over 50 MByte/s. Extracting it was slow again.

As for controllers, get the right one and Windows as well as macOS are plug and play. Get the wrong one and you need drivers, been through this on both on both systems. As for drivers, I don't have a problem there (in the past few years), but I'm limited to standard hardware + external audio interface. I don't do anything fancy.

 

[leman]

Not sure where that info is coming from.

Independent reviews and tests.

I'd stay away from Radeon as far as possible unless it has to be dirt cheap as that's what AMD can do.

The 6800M is on par with 3070 mobile, often faster. It’s a very decent mobile GPU. The only deficit is ray tracing but who cares, really. Frankly, I would have also preferred Nvidia, simply so I can work on porting some CUDA stuff, but I did not find any good deals.

Otherwise Razer has 30x0 laptops which are very good.

Razer would have cost me almost three times more for a comparable spec, and all Is be getting is a slightly better build quality. Not really worth it. I don’t want to pay that kind of money for a toy.

 

[Random_Matt]

Only just got around to testing something, POE. Yep, runs like **** even on an M1 Max that mostly hovers between 30 and 60 with the occasional dip to 25. Also, the studio display max res in that game is 1440p.

 

[diamond.g]

Only just got around to testing something, POE. Yep, runs like **** even on an M1 Max that mostly hovers between 30 and 60 with the occasional dip to 25. Also, the studio display max res in that game is 1440p.

Path of Exile?

 

[Random_Matt]

Path of Exile?

Pillars of eternity. M1 does not scale with Unity very well.