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Spackenberger

macrumors newbie
Nov 2, 2021
1
0
Macs can do the ‘work’ but can’t do the ’play’

The problem here is the following:

AAA game developers see the ~3% to ~10% market share Macs enjoy in the desktop/laptop category, depending on region. They see that they cannot justify the expense of either making Mac-exclusive games, or entirely rewriting existing code to work well on the Mac.

As a result, they either don't compete on the Mac platform at all, or they release half-assed "me too" versions of Windows games, leading to a poor gaming experience for a variety of reasons, performance being one.

The problem is absolutely NOT that Macs "aren't designed for gaming" or have "worse performance" generally. Macs are general purpose computing devices and will happily compute gaming content if that's what you want them to do.

There's absolutely nothing stopping you, or anyone, from starting a Mac-only game company. But you have to realise that you have a decision to make: either you will be barred from releasing the same game on other platforms, or you will need to basically write an entire new game for other platforms (which will eat into your profits), or your game will simply suck. Those are your choices.

The only thing that might change this over time is if the already impressive performance lead of Apple Silicon continues to grow to a point where it cannot be ignored and Windows development can no longer be justified.
 

robco74

macrumors 6502a
Nov 22, 2020
509
944
Apple is laying the groundwork with M1. The slowest Apple Silicon has pretty decent graphics performance. However, priority will always be given to professional workloads than gaming - think Quadro vs GeForce. Apple does need expand the consumer lineup a bit more, but that will take time. The current situation with supply shortages isn't helping. Hell, you still can't get a higher-end next generation console without camping out on different websites waiting for a restock.

I think the outlook is better for the long-term, but it will take several years to grow sales. But M1 offers better GPU performance than iGPUs from Intel or AMD. Perhaps they will step it up, but for now, you can't really play AAA games with all the eye candy enabled on those systems either.

As for me, as long as I can play strategy games on the Mac, I'm good. I've got an Xbox for everything else.
 

pi=e=3

macrumors regular
Jun 18, 2021
192
407
Different tools for different purposes.

I wouldn't try and use a Ferrari to pick up a cubic meter of dirt, and I wouldn't use a F-350 to rip around Laguna Seca.

If you want to game, buy/build a PC, it's cheaper. Like all of 10 people are whining their Mac doesn't game well. Developers absolutely do not care, nor should they.
 

tothemoonsands

macrumors 6502a
Jun 14, 2018
586
1,279
Different tools for different purposes.

I wouldn't try and use a Ferrari to pick up a cubic meter of dirt, and I wouldn't use a F-350 to rip around Laguna Seca.

If you want to game, buy/build a PC, it's cheaper. Like all of 10 people are whining their Mac doesn't game well. Developers absolutely do not care, nor should they.

I like this metaphor. And to extend it....The Google Chromebook is the Ford Pinto...it will get you there, just won't be pretty.... ;)
 

Admiralbison

macrumors regular
Original poster
May 23, 2021
130
131
Oh boy did I hit a wasps nest.
- denial
- excuses
- defending Apple
- Apple has games and points to Apple Arcade, while simultaneously saying Apple doesn’t care for games.
etc…

GOOD!

Perhaps this is also what is needed, Mac fans getting a kick up the backside by reality.

If this is what it takes to change attitudes and facing the truth than I’m glad.


It’s not Apple doesn’t want to do AAA gaming, Apple CAN’T do AAA gaming.

They‘ve tried with half a**ed attempts before, but they simply don’t have the right people to lead that stuff.


Apple NEEDS outside people with a different mindset from the rest of the company, those who are passionate in the games industry to head a dedicated Apple AAA gaming sector of the company.
 

Sammy in SoCal

macrumors 6502
Sep 18, 2021
496
1,063
Oh boy did I hit a wasps nest.
- denial
- excuses
- defending Apple
- Apple has games and points to Apple Arcade, while simultaneously saying Apple doesn’t care for games.
etc…

GOOD!

Perhaps this is also what is needed, Mac fans getting a kick up the backside by reality.

If this is what it takes to change attitudes and facing the truth than I’m glad.


It’s not Apple doesn’t want to do AAA gaming, Apple CAN’T do AAA gaming.

They‘ve tried with half a**ed attempts before, but they simply don’t have the right people to lead that stuff.


Apple NEEDS outside people with a different mindset from the rest of the company, those who are passionate in the games industry to head a dedicated Apple AAA gaming sector of the company.
The MacBook Pro is not a gaming laptop. No one is defending anything. It’s been explained to you. You just don’t like the answers. End of thread. For me, anyway.
 

varunsanthanam

macrumors 6502
Dec 28, 2007
459
191
California
gaming on computers is a massive past time, so this can’t be ignored.

this is a troll, right? The global personal computer market will have shipped over 500 million units by the end of 2021 — less than 10% of that is gaming-focused hardware.

the reason for this should be somewhat straightforward — gaming is itself a niche market, and gaming personal computers compete less with general purpose PCs than they do with other gaming-specific hardware like handheld and tv consoles. The growth in the gaming PC market represents it’s success over those other non-pc gaming focused hardware options.

Apple grew a 2 and a half trillion dollar company by focusing on high quality execution over a small product catalog that targets a wide variety of people. Their lineup has *always* consisted of a limited number of models with broad feature sets to target as much of the total addressable market as they can. To the degree that they do any segmentation at all, its always towards large groups (e.g. college students, working professionals, etc.) who might actually make a difference in their ability to capture a greater percentage of the TAM.

I’d be a bit concerned if they decided to focus on AAA gaming, a market who’s estimated annual sales is **less than half a single fiscal quarter** of the overall annual market.

there are technical factors at play, sure — apple’s choice to prioritize open gl when it ended up being a losing technology, then to Metal as it invested in its home grown silicon for graphics, along with it’s fractured relationship with nvidia probably meant that apple’s performance in gaming was worse than it needed to be.

still, as those choices might have angered the teenager who spends too much time on steam, the apple shareholder knows that those choices were the right ones for its overall business.

even if apple were to investing gaming today, there’s still the broader question about the future of running AAA titles on bare metal in your home and how long that stack will be relevant. Casual games account for a larger and larger share of gaming revenue and hours played, and apple accounts for such a large percentage of revenue there thanks to its roll as toll booth via the App Store that its business practices on that front as the subject of regulatory scrutiny all over the world.

and for serious games, there's the looming shift to running demanding software like an AAA game on a VM that you stream to your home instead. This allows developers to standardize performance across platforms AND not need to worry about the compute and graphics limits or any one player. Microsoft, for one, is investing heavily in this with its Xbox game pass subscription. I’m not exactly sure what the future here looks like -- nobody is -- but it sounds like a pretty awful time to spin up all the developer relationships + needed technologies for what may ultimately be a futile stack.

in that sense, apple is probably hedging correctly with the size of its investment in Metal, an investment thay makes sense for other releases w/r/t apple’s ambitions in AR/VR, and will pay dividends for its much more important market or customers anyway — creative professionals.

i can only be thankful, then, that apple isn’t run by folks like the OP, because it’s an actual business that makes sane decisions that aren't necessarily designed to cater to the whims of a random reply guy, but rather to serve the overall needs of its customers, employees, and shareholders.
 
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Huntn

macrumors Penryn
May 5, 2008
24,002
27,085
The Misty Mountains
I'm not sure you can make the judgement that they "can't do it" when there's absolutely no evidence that they have tried to do it, or that they even want to do it.
It’s just that some Mac users want them to do it. ;) Me, I’m fine with the status quo, my Mac is relegated to bill paying, keeping track of important documents, creating word processing guides for self use, many of those are game guides, and my PC is my gaming and graphic design platform. Something seems fundamentally upside down about this.

As far as the right tool for the right job, it’s CPU, GPU, Memory, and monitor. Where is the best pricing? not Apple as far as I can tell at the consumer level. At the Professional level, Macs maybe very competitive. What you get with the MacOS is a comfort level of an excellent Os and being vested in the Mac ecosystem. For years at the consumer level, I have been paying top dollar for this, but it still irritates me when I’m now learning Unreal Engine on my PC.
 

PrecisionGem

Suspended
Jan 25, 2019
215
327
Maryland
No excuses and defending Apple.

it’s simple. 30 years and 2 $trillion dollar laters Apple still couldn’t make the Mac platform an actual viable gaming platform

repeat after me and make it a mantra.

……because Apple can‘t do AAA gaming.


until the culture within the company changes with people who care and understand AAA games in that regard it will continue to be


….because Apple can‘t do AAA gaming.
I have no interest in playing games on a computer. As an adult running a business, the Mac fits my needs very well. I suggest if games are you thing than maybe a Playstation or something else sold in the toy department.
 

laptech

macrumors 601
Apr 26, 2013
4,130
4,455
Earth
One thing that I do not think others in here have thought of is that even though some of us have talked about there needing a games publisher to stand up and be counted, to get the best out of the mac hardware I am assuming that the games publisher will require access to specific mac hardware and software coding and instruction sets to be able to write a AAA game to work flawlessly on mac hardware. Now here's the $64,000 dollar question, would Apple give the games publisher access to the coding and instructions sets they need or would Apple say no, 'your on your own' because of Apple not wanting to take the risk of the game publisher succeeding and thus starting the push for mac gaming.
 

Unregistered 4U

macrumors G4
Jul 22, 2002
10,610
8,628
One thing that I do not think others in here have thought of is that even though some of us have talked about there needing a games publisher to stand up and be counted, to get the best out of the mac hardware I am assuming that the games publisher will require access to specific mac hardware and software coding and instruction sets to be able to write a AAA game to work flawlessly on mac hardware. Now here's the $64,000 dollar question, would Apple give the games publisher access to the coding and instructions sets they need or would Apple say no, 'your on your own' because of Apple not wanting to take the risk of the game publisher succeeding and thus starting the push for mac gaming.
The hardware is available for purchase, the coding and instruction sets are available via a $99 developer account. That plus a team of Mac developers (and the desire) is all they’d need to publish a game. If they have any issues compiling the code or getting some method to work, there are folks at Apple that would help them, sure.

Either that or I’m not understanding what you mean by “access to the coding and instruction sets they need”. This isn’t a Playstation where the dev kit may be drastically different from the system customers use to run the code.
 
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Zdigital2015

macrumors 601
Jul 14, 2015
4,143
5,622
East Coast, United States
*warning long intro rant, if you want to get to my point skip ahead to “the point”

————

Macs can do the ‘work’ but can’t do the ’play’

gaming on computers is a massive past time, so this can’t be ignored.

As Mac fans we have to be honest with ourselves, the Mac platform falls embarrassingly short of this major aspect of the ‘complete computer experience‘

The real world game demonstrations have come in, and for such ”high end“ laptops M1 Pro/Max are at best mediocre when it comes to modern AAA gaming performance standards.

What is more disappointing is too many of Mac fans/Mac gamers are accepting the state of gaming on the Mac platform or even worse excusing it.

”Macs are not designed to play games”

“Devs need to optimize their games better for the Mac”

”if you just lower the resolution down and put it to mid setting you could hit so and so fps”

“I just get a dedicated gaming Windows Pc”

what these are, are a condemnations of Apple itself.

If we look back at Apple’s history in two decades Apple has done Jack squat meangingul to address this sore issue on the Mac platform.

A multi-trillion dollar corporation shouldn’t be defended or excused for this, if Mac fans/Mac Gamers don‘t demand better, Apple will not bother to do better.

************************************** The Point *********************************
Apple has AAA Gaming gurus

IF Apple are “serious” about AAA gaming, than Apple ought to employ AAA gaming people from all over the industry and to be executive and lead heads of a whole dedicated AAA gaming sector of Apple.

THEY are to have complete autonomy in the company…..because Apple can‘t do AAA gaming.
THEY are the ones to have a one way influence in the company…..because Apple can‘t do AAA gaming
THEY are the ones who can manage relationships and talk with devs, publishers and most importantly Mac gamers…..because Apple can‘t do AAA gaming

THEY will be more like Seamus Blackely and Ed Fries who have a passion for AA-AAA games and were responsible for the creation of Microsoft’s Xbox….because Microsoft couldn’t really do AAA gaming consoles.

THEY must show the gamer attitude and change the culture within Apple….because Apple can‘t do AAA gaming.

THEY will not be like former EA executives like Don Matrick who saw it fit to be anti-gamer and nearly destroyed the Xbox brand with the Xbox One launch…..because E.A. executives can’t do AAA gaming - when they eventually suck the life out and spit out whatever studios they consume.


Apple knows AAA gaming is a big deal, but Apple thinks mobile, cloud and Apple Arcade for children is gaming and obviously wants to sell that hard to Mac users instead.

Apple doesn’t have what it takes to build the Mac platform to be contend in gaming…because Apple can‘t do AAA gaming.
I don’t give two sh*ts whether I can game in my Mac. I have an iPad Pro and an Xbox One for that. What I’d care about is getting work done on a platform I enjoy and has the tools I need, want and/or desire. Windows doesn’t.

Gamers seem to think awfully highly of themselves and have a great desire to be catered to in many circumstances. Apple doesn’t do that, hence the endless threads about gaming, desperately seeking attention and validation.

Short answer: Too much self-entitlement. Go away.
 

Zdigital2015

macrumors 601
Jul 14, 2015
4,143
5,622
East Coast, United States
Maybe. But that apple logo on a console should scare the daylights out of the current console leaders.

I view it similar to Nintendo vs sega with Sony looming in the shadows. It’s just a matter of apple putting the pieces it has together if they desire at all to do so.
Apple can build a console that can leave all the others in the dust tomorrow, that’s not the issue. The issue is launch titles and exclusives, and this is where Apple absolutely is not going to just fork over cash like MS did to get those games ported over. It took MS 20 years to get to where it is now and Apple is not going to suddenly come in against three heavyweights and the entrenched de facto gaming platform (Windows PCs) and take any marketshare away from anyone. Anyone thinking this is a solid business plan for any company needs to have their head examined. It is simply not a rational, logical business move to make. Those of you I favor of this are making a purely emotional appeal. There is no financials to ever back this up.

Gaming is an abyss where cubic buckets of cash are spent for little to no return for Apple. They just aren’t going to do it. Let it go.
 

TopToffee

macrumors 65816
Jul 9, 2008
1,070
992
I have no interest in playing games on a computer. As an adult running a business, the Mac fits my needs very well. I suggest if games are you thing than maybe a Playstation or something else sold in the toy department.
Out of curiosity would you have that sort of condescending attitude about someone watching films?

Gaming is a form of entertainment, just like music or film. And I say this as someone with no particular interest in seeing Apple trying to get into that market
 
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laptech

macrumors 601
Apr 26, 2013
4,130
4,455
Earth
The hardware is available for purchase, the coding and instruction sets are available via a $99 developer account. That plus a team of Mac developers (and the desire) is all they’d need to publish a game. If they have any issues compiling the code or getting some method to work, there are folks at Apple that would help them, sure.

Either that or I’m not understanding what you mean by “access to the coding and instruction sets they need”. This isn’t a Playstation where the dev kit may be drastically different from the system customers use to run the code.
You are correct, you are not understanding my question. For a games publisher to be able to get their game to work flawlessly on a computer system, they would need to have access to specific usually proprietary coding, coding that is never provide to other software programmers. A lot of this coding is proprietary and thus would require special permission from the manufacturer to use such code in their game. Now if a games publisher was to find out that to get the best out of the Max Pro gpu they needed access to some of the gpu's proprietary coding, Apple knowing that it would be put to use in making a game and Apple not wanting their computers used for gaming, they could refuse to grant such access.

Basically, it would be a games publisher having to license gpu code from Apple and Apple turning around and saying No because they would be worried that the games publisher could succeed and thus owners of mac computers wanting more games written for it.
 

januarydrive7

macrumors 6502a
Oct 23, 2020
537
578
You are correct, you are not understanding my question. For a games publisher to be able to get their game to work flawlessly on a computer system, they would need to have access to specific usually proprietary coding, coding that is never provide to other software programmers. A lot of this coding is proprietary and thus would require special permission from the manufacturer to use such code in their game. Now if a games publisher was to find out that to get the best out of the Max Pro gpu they needed access to some of the gpu's proprietary coding, Apple knowing that it would be put to use in making a game and Apple not wanting their computers used for gaming, they could refuse to grant such access.

Basically, it would be a games publisher having to license gpu code from Apple and Apple turning around and saying No because they would be worried that the games publisher could succeed and thus owners of mac computers wanting more games written for it.
As I understand it, Metal apis are quite complete.
 

cardfan

macrumors 601
Mar 23, 2012
4,431
5,627
Apple can build a console that can leave all the others in the dust tomorrow, that’s not the issue. The issue is launch titles and exclusives, and this is where Apple absolutely is not going to just fork over cash like MS did to get those games ported over. It took MS 20 years to get to where it is now and Apple is not going to suddenly come in against three heavyweights and the entrenched de facto gaming platform (Windows PCs) and take any marketshare away from anyone. Anyone thinking this is a solid business plan for any company needs to have their head examined. It is simply not a rational, logical business move to make. Those of you I favor of this are making a purely emotional appeal. There is no financials to ever back this up.

Gaming is an abyss where cubic buckets of cash are spent for little to no return for Apple. They just aren’t going to do it. Let it go.

And yet. Atv+. Lol. Talk about your sinkholes.
 

smoking monkey

macrumors 68020
Mar 5, 2008
2,363
1,508
I HUNGER
IF I were actually into playing games on a computer, I guess I'd be somewhat upset or frustrated that I couldn't work and play on the same computer. But because I don't give a hoot about gaming on my computer (apart from Pinball Dreams/Fantasies on the Amiga) this is a total non issue... for me. But I do sympathise with the OP and their frustration at not being able to use their expensive new M1 Pro/Max for playing some games on at a high quality.

And let's face it, if Apple were to hire AAA game Devs all we'd get is maudlin, melodramatic indie crap that infests Apple Arcade.
 

Admiralbison

macrumors regular
Original poster
May 23, 2021
130
131
“I don’t care about playing games on Macs”

How lovely for you.


For those who want to play games on Macs, recognize Apple‘s platform is atrocious when it comes to this and demand for better.

Apple could do this if they employ game veterans from across the industry to head, lead and work in a dedicated AAA gaming division of the company, because we know…..Apple can‘t do AAA gaming.
 

Homy

macrumors 68030
Jan 14, 2006
2,507
2,459
Sweden
Oh boy did I hit a wasps nest.
- denial
- excuses
- defending Apple
- Apple has games and points to Apple Arcade, while simultaneously saying Apple doesn’t care for games.
etc…

GOOD!

Perhaps this is also what is needed, Mac fans getting a kick up the backside by reality.

If this is what it takes to change attitudes and facing the truth than I’m glad.


It’s not Apple doesn’t want to do AAA gaming, Apple CAN’T do AAA gaming.

They‘ve tried with half a**ed attempts before, but they simply don’t have the right people to lead that stuff.


Apple NEEDS outside people with a different mindset from the rest of the company, those who are passionate in the games industry to head a dedicated Apple AAA gaming sector of the company.

Okay, to put you at ease: Apple CAN’T do AAA gaming, Macs CAN'T game, There are No AAA games for Macs. There, now that we agree with you and your "facts", what's next?

Are you the new Messiah who's going to save Apple and the dying Mac gaming industry? I don't think so. Is Apple going to drop by Macrumors and read some random guy's master plans for their salvation? Highly unlikely!

Do we "Mac fans" need to be kicked up our backsides by some guy's definition of reality to wake up and understand the situation and reasons behind it? Certainly not, since many of us have been Mac users for decades, but perhaps that's what you need to get out of your reality distortion field.

If you are eager to accomplish some real changes I suggest you send your insightful opinion to Tim Cook and tell him he needs a kick up his backside, They CAN'T do AAA gaming and Apple NEEDS outside people with a different mindset from the rest of the company, those who are passionate in the games industry to head a dedicated Apple AAA gaming sector of the company.

He answers to many Apple customers every day so you may get lucky and become the new Messiah Apple and Mac fans been waiting for all these years. Good luck!
 
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tpfang56

macrumors regular
Jul 1, 2021
183
328
Out of curiosity would you have that sort of condescending attitude about someone watching films?

Gaming is a form of entertainment, just like music or film. And I say this as someone with no particular interest in setting Apple trying to get into that market

Every time the topic of gaming on Macs comes up, the pretentious “games are for children/games are bad/I’m too good for games” crowd come out of the woodwork to insult video games like it’s still the 1980s.

They’re the opposite of the “PC master race” crowd who hate Macs (and/or consoles) and are just as annoying!
 

0423MAC

macrumors 6502a
Jun 30, 2020
516
678
As someone who grew up on macs and still use them till this very day there are a couple of things that people need to understand when it comes to Apple. They have been hyper focused on productive creatives since I was a kid, but some of their machines CAN have enough power to play a little bit if you wish. It is definitely not a primary focus you should have when buying a Mac. Game Center, little cute splash pages on the app stores are nice and all, but that's about the most apple will do to cater to the gaming crowd and quite frankly I don't blame them.

The gaming market is very competitive and dominated by a crowd that demands a box that can run most games well for 5+ years in the $300-$600 range. Even the entry level Mac Mini is more than that before Keyboard, Mouse, Display (if needed) and controller is considered. It is not Apple's lane at all when it comes to the mac.

What should Apple do? That's a tough one now that the days of Intel are pretty much in the rearview mirror of the company once old stock is depleted. Microsoft, unfortunately has taken a pretty aggressive stance when it comes to their system requirements for Windows 11. Is it possible that we see Windows 11 on an M1 Mac, natively? I guess it's possible, but as more time passes by I am starting to question if the motivation is there from both sides. My guess would be that someone will hack their way into getting Windows 11 to boot, but then it becomes a driver issue & a not well optimized installation anyway. You also have to consider the fact that most games are still being developed with X86-64 in mind.

When apple transitioned to Intel back in 2006, Bootcamp was made available 3 months later. We are already a year into the AS era and not a word yet. A bit disappointing for customers, but I do believe options will become available from hackers in the coming months.

MAYBE Windows 12 will be a different story. My suggestion would be to grab an XBOX/PlayStation and have that gaming question taken care of.
 
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