Apple CAN’T do AAA gaming [Merged Megathread]

[cardfan]

I think it's very unlikely that any potential AAA gaming push will be lead by macOS, or that macs will become "gaming" devices, it's more that we'll just benefit from sharing the unified Apple hardware platform.

The only reason Windows gaming is so good now is because if you make a game for the Xbox you almost get the PC version almost for free. 10 years ago PC ports of console games were almost all terrible because porting was a huge effort.

It seems to me that with iOS's dominance in mobile gaming and Apple Silicon slowly eroding the distinction between mobile and desktop hardware, it would be difficult for Apple to not end up eventually being an incredibly attractive platform for AAA gaming in a few years even if they do nothing at all.

Yeah pretty much. I don’t see a direct push involving macs. It all starts with iOS. I mentioned a console but even that needs to leverage iOS in some way. Macs could certainly benefit from any efforts though.

All this stuff takes time. Or maybe apple is doing nothing at all. Who knows. But it doesn’t change the fact that if you want gaming and access to most games you don’t get a mac. If having some games or what’s available is suitable then by all means.

I know some that all they want is world of Warcraft and will happily get a m1 max to accommodate it.

 

[JouniS]

The only reason Windows gaming is so good now is because if you make a game for the Xbox you almost get the PC version almost for free. 10 years ago PC ports of console games were almost all terrible because porting was a huge effort.

PC gaming is good now, because people wanted to play games on the PCs they had in the late 80s and early 90s, and developers started releasing their games for the PC. As the PC became more capable than home computers such as the Amiga, it quickly became the primary platform for many forms of gaming, and it has remained that for the last 30 years. While there have been many changes in PC game sales vs. console game sales over the decades, the platforms are good for different types of games, and neither is going away.

Mac gaming could grow organically in the same way as PC gaming grew, but it's going to be more difficult. Because the PC is an open platform, PC gaming was able to grow without any active support from Microsoft. The same won't work for Mac gaming, because Apple controls the hardware, the OS, and the APIs.

 

[vir]

Pros use PCs, too.

 

[diamond.g]

Pros use PCs, too.

Nah all the games people play are written on a Mac. PCs are only good at gaming. Nothing else.

 

[laptech]

One member here made a comment that got me thinking, 'is it really Apple that is at fault for not getting into gaming' because i made a post saying that game developers would need the assistance of Apple due to the possibility of proprietary GPU coding needing to be used but the member dismissed that argument saying that having access to publicly available coding is all thats required. Now if that is true and the makers of AAA games do not need coding assistance from Apple then why hasn't any of the AAA game publishers made their games available for mac computers?

I do not accept the argument that game publishers are not interested in mac gaming because they perceive the mac gaming market is not big enough for them to invest time and money into because Epic did it with Fortnite. Epic's ongoing court action with Apple and thus peoples feelings towards Epic is irrelevant here (just incase people were thinking of derideing Epic due to their biased feelings of the companies action against Apple). Epic, like all the other gaming publishers, are in it to make money thus they coded their game to work on all platforms including mac computers. With that said, there are gaming publishers who have their AAA PC game converted to iOS, android, xbox, playstation, nintendo switch but wont make a mac computer version. Epic did, why can't the others? don't they want the money that mac sales could generate?

 

[jmho]

One member here made a comment that got me thinking, 'is it really Apple that is at fault for not getting into gaming' because i made a post saying that game developers would need the assistance of Apple due to the possibility of proprietary GPU coding needing to be used but the member dismissed that argument saying that having access to publicly available coding is all thats required. Now if that is true and the makers of AAA games do not need coding assistance from Apple then why hasn't any of the AAA game publishers made their games available for mac computers?

I do not accept the argument that game publishers are not interested in mac gaming because they perceive the mac gaming market is not big enough for them to invest time and money into because Epic did it with Fortnite. Epic's ongoing court action with Apple and thus peoples feelings towards Epic is irrelevant here (just incase people were thinking of derideing Epic due to their biased feelings of the companies action against Apple). Epic, like all the other gaming publishers, are in it to make money thus they coded their game to work on all platforms including mac computers. With that said, there are gaming publishers who have their AAA PC game converted to iOS, android, xbox, playstation, nintendo switch but wont make a mac computer version. Epic did, why can't the others? don't they want the money that mac sales could generate?

Fortnite is:

• One of the most popular games of all time - guaranteed to do well even in small markets like macOS.
• Graphically simple - will run on most Macs, even ones with terrible GPUs, thus increasing the number of potential players and thus revenue.
• Runs on Unreal Engine which already supports metal - so the porting cost is trivial.

The math is really simple: Developers will port to Mac when the potential revenue they can get from Mac gamers clearly exceeds the cost of porting to the platform. For Fortnite that's a no-brainer. For a lot of other games it's not so clear.

 

[diamond.g]

One member here made a comment that got me thinking, 'is it really Apple that is at fault for not getting into gaming' because i made a post saying that game developers would need the assistance of Apple due to the possibility of proprietary GPU coding needing to be used but the member dismissed that argument saying that having access to publicly available coding is all thats required. Now if that is true and the makers of AAA games do not need coding assistance from Apple then why hasn't any of the AAA game publishers made their games available for mac computers?

I do not accept the argument that game publishers are not interested in mac gaming because they perceive the mac gaming market is not big enough for them to invest time and money into because Epic did it with Fortnite. Epic's ongoing court action with Apple and thus peoples feelings towards Epic is irrelevant here (just incase people were thinking of derideing Epic due to their biased feelings of the companies action against Apple). Epic, like all the other gaming publishers, are in it to make money thus they coded their game to work on all platforms including mac computers. With that said, there are gaming publishers who have their AAA PC game converted to iOS, android, xbox, playstation, nintendo switch but wont make a mac computer version. Epic did, why can't the others? don't they want the money that mac sales could generate?

Fortnite is:

• One of the most popular games of all time - guaranteed to do well even in small markets like macOS.
• Graphically simple - will run on most Macs, even ones with terrible GPUs, thus increasing the number of potential players and thus revenue.
• Runs on Unreal Engine which already supports metal - so the porting cost is trivial.

The math is really simple: Developers will port to Mac when the potential revenue they can get from Mac gamers clearly exceeds the cost of porting to the platform. For Fortnite that's a no-brainer. For a lot of other games it's not so clear.

An even simpler question can be asked. Why isn't there a native version of Genshin Impact on macOS?

 

[laptech]

Fortnite is:

• One of the most popular games of all time - guaranteed to do well even in small markets like macOS.
• Graphically simple - will run on most Macs, even ones with terrible GPUs, thus increasing the number of potential players and thus revenue.
• Runs on Unreal Engine which already supports metal - so the porting cost is trivial.

The math is really simple: Developers will port to Mac when the potential revenue they can get from Mac gamers clearly exceeds the cost of porting to the platform. For Fortnite that's a no-brainer. For a lot of other games it's not so clear.

But here's the thing, if you've followed the thread from the beginning you will have seen numerous posts pointing out the facts that across the spectrum of Apple's current mac computer platform, due to the hardware used in the machines they are more than capable of handling AAA games. It has also been suggested that coding the games is not a problem because publicly available coding can be used, also many games run on unreal engine thus cannot be a problem.

So if, based on the many views and opinons of mac owners and supporters in this thread, mac computers have the hardware to run AAA games and the coding is available to code AAA games thus the question again still has to be, why haven't AAA game publishers ported their games to work on mac computers? There are millions upon millions of gaming hardware capable mac computers out there in the world thus money to be made but AAA game publishers do not appear interested. Surely the reason they will not do it cannot be down to just one simple thing of it's not being cost effective to code for mac computers because there is not enough mac gamers out there to make it worthwhile. Surely it has to be more than that.

 

[diamond.g]

But here's the thing, if you've followed the thread from the beginning you will have seen numerous posts pointing out the facts that across the spectrum of Apple's current mac computer platform, due to the hardware used in the machines they are more than capable of handling AAA games. It has also been suggested that coding the games is not a problem because publicly available coding can be used, also many games run on unreal engine thus cannot be a problem.

So if, based on the many views and opinons of mac owners and supporters in this thread, mac computers have the hardware to run AAA games and the coding is available to code AAA games thus the question again still has to be, why haven't AAA game publishers ported their games to work on mac computers? There are millions upon millions of gaming hardware capable mac computers out there in the world thus money to be made but AAA game publishers do not appear interested. Surely the reason they will not do it cannot be down to just one simple thing of it's not being cost effective to code for mac computers because there is not enough mac gamers out there to make it worthwhile. Surely it has to be more than that.

Out of curiosity, in order to build a macOS game don't you have to do the build on a Mac?

 

[jmho]

Even if you could port to macOS for free, you still have to deal with maintenance, quality control and support on those platforms.

There is also the question of opportunity cost. Even if you could make money on macOS, are there better uses of your development time? A lot of people who own Macs also own iOS devices (and probably at least one console), so maybe you'd decide that you're not missing out on any revenue by not supporting macOS.

I'm guessing this is maybe why Genshin Impact hasn't been ported.

Out of curiosity, in order to build a macOS game don't you have to do the build on a Mac?

Yes. This is one of the biggest hurdles for small Indie games.

 

[januarydrive7]

...There are millions upon millions of gaming hardware capable mac computers out there in the world thus money to be made but AAA game publishers do not appear interested. Surely the reason they will not do it cannot be down to just one simple thing of it's not being cost effective to code for mac computers because there is not enough mac gamers out there to make it worthwhile. Surely it has to be more than that.

I see two very likely contributors to the apparent disconnect:
1) the millions of gaming-capable macs is a relatively new phenomenon, and it will take years (2-3?) to see the fruits of this
2) capable hardware does not entail interested hardware owners. I'm sure the big game devs have detailed stats on # of potential customers (in terms of desire, not capability) for each platform, and those who have macs have typically been less-interested in gaming (hence, the constant refrain that macs aren't made for gaming). This may change as more e.g., MacBook Air owners have access to capable hardware (see (1)), which I imagine will shift the stats up for mac owners.

We'll see.

 

[T'hain Esh Kelch]

Fortnite is:

• One of the most popular games of all time - guaranteed to do well even in small markets like macOS.
• Graphically simple - will run on most Macs, even ones with terrible GPUs, thus increasing the number of potential players and thus revenue.
• Runs on Unreal Engine which already supports metal - so the porting cost is trivial.

The math is really simple: Developers will port to Mac when the potential revenue they can get from Mac gamers clearly exceeds the cost of porting to the platform. For Fortnite that's a no-brainer. For a lot of other games it's not so clear.

Except that the vast majority of the user base of Fortnite is teenagers and kids. I'd wager there's a large sway towards the older users than that for Mac's, compared to Windows machines. So you demographic userbase is skewed towards not playing Fortnite.

 

[radow]

Fortnite is:

• One of the most popular games of all time - guaranteed to do well even in small markets like macOS.
• Graphically simple - will run on most Macs, even ones with terrible GPUs, thus increasing the number of potential players and thus revenue.
• Runs on Unreal Engine which already supports metal - so the porting cost is trivial.

The math is really simple: Developers will port to Mac when the potential revenue they can get from Mac gamers clearly exceeds the cost of porting to the platform. For Fortnite that's a no-brainer. For a lot of other games it's not so clear.

I see Fortnite as a "showcase project" for Epic and the Unreal Engine. Yes the game is popular, but on a technical level it shows cross platform ability of the game engine, so they went with the play-anywhere approach.

 

[diamond.g]

I see Fortnite as a "showcase project" for Epic and the Unreal Engine. Yes the game is popular, but on a technical level it shows cross platform ability of the game engine, so they went with the play-anywhere approach.

It will be interesting to see what happens with the switch to UE5 since the mobile versions wont support really any of the new features (unless Epic has changed their minds and we ignore Exynos 2200). It is also curious we have yet to hear any updates on macOS compatibility with nanite and lumen, maybe Epic has paused porting updates to Apples stuff until their "entanglement" is settled.

 

[laptech]

Maybe the macrumours team should get one of it's reporters to contact each of the top 10 gaming publishers and ask them why they do not port any of their top games to work on mac computers, using this thread as the source for asking such a question. The reporter could say that there is an ongoing debate in their forum about mac gaming which has resulted in a lot of interesting questions being asked with thoughts and idea's being put forward and thus they would like to get the gaming publishers input on the matter.

 

[radow]

It will be interesting to see what happens with the switch to UE5 since the mobile versions wont support really any of the new features (unless Epic has changed their minds and we ignore Exynos 2200). It is also curious we have yet to hear any updates on macOS compatibility with nanite and lumen, maybe Epic has paused porting updates to Apples stuff until their "entanglement" is settled.

Of course there will always be first class citizens, and second ones. Feature parity is appreciated, but not necessary. Like, Nintendo Switch supports UE games, but Yoshi’s Crafted World struggles to deliver even 720p on dock.

My take is Apple does things Apple-y. Metal is a much less established standard in AAA gaming industry than, let’s say, DirectX. Apple talks about Ray Tracing or Global Illumination stuff on WWDCs, but their approach is just…somewhat different, a lot more ground work needs to be done. Partnership with Larian Studios is a good sign, Apple needs to do more like that.

 

[diamond.g]

Maybe the macrumours team should get one of it's reporters to contact each of the top 10 gaming publishers and ask them why they do not port any of their top games to work on mac computers, using this thread as the source for asking such a question. The reporter could say that there is an ongoing debate in their forum about mac gaming which has resulted in a lot of interesting questions being asked with thoughts and idea's being put forward and thus they would like to get the gaming publishers input on the matter.

Pinging @arn (mostly cause I don't know the handle for the other Editors) because this isn't a horrible idea (though I imagine this idea has been kicked around MR Team before).

 

[jmho]

I think the chances of any publisher actually answering that question is ~0%.

 

[diamond.g]

I think the chances of any publisher actually answering that question is ~0%.

Oh, they would give an answer. We probably won't like how vague or dismissive it would likely be, but it would be an answer.

 

[Irishman]

In my opinion, Apple does not want to demean itself by making gaming computers. Those who continue to complain about Apple not making gaming computers need to read and listen to the many interviews given by the companies primary founders Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak. Their vison was to make a company that could build computers that enhance the lives of it's owners, to learn, to educate, to engineer, to build, to create. Their vison was not to build computers that would have it's owners sit on their backside all day playing computer games, to do so would deman and devalue what a computer is.

A good way of looking at it is when people get involved in war of words and you always find someone who will say 'do not let them bring you down to their level'. This is how I see Apple and it's approach to computer gaming, Apple does not want to bring itself down to the level of computers for computer gaming because it knows that it's computers are capable of so so much more.

Computer gaming is a very profitable market and I do not think Apple is immune to that knowledge, it is just something they are not interested in getting involved in, in my opinion.

Then why do Apple’s new ARM-based chips use an UMA architecture, something which no previous desktops or laptops have done in a universal way, only game consoles have offered?

 

[Joe Rossignol]

We can give it a shot. If we hear anything, then expect a story on the front page in due time. Thanks!

@Admiralbison @laptech @diamond.g @radow would be great if you could share a list of developers to contact, as I'm not a gamer.

 

[radow]

We can give it a shot. If we hear anything, then expect a story on the front page in due time. Thanks!

@Admiralbison @laptech @diamond.g @radow would be great if you could share a list of developers to contact, as I'm not a gamer.

I’ll just list some big guy that actually did make games for Mac.
- Ubisoft: Rayman is on Mac App Store, but their biggest titles(Assassin’s Creed, WatchDogs, Tom Clancy Series…) are not on Mac
- Activision Blizzard: Some of their early Call of Duty games were ported, Newer titles no luck. WoW from Blizzard has Mac support though.
- CAPCOM: they are famous (infamous, shall I say) for putting their games on every console platform, check out Resident Evil series. Also they made Shinsekai, an Apple Arcade exclusive (later ported to Nintendo Switch)
- Firaxis Games: their Civilization and XCOM series are on Mac.
- Rockstar Games: early Grand Theft Auto series are on OS X.
- Valve: Since they are pushing Linux gaming forward with Proton technology and Steam deck. Their vision for Apple Silicon might be interesting. Also, many of their titles are on macOS.

 

[laptech]

We can give it a shot. If we hear anything, then expect a story on the front page in due time. Thanks!

@Admiralbison @laptech @diamond.g @radow would be great if you could share a list of developers to contact, as I'm not a gamer.

These are some of the top gaming publishers (in no particular order) with some of their most notable games mentioned.

​

Square Enix - Dragon Quest, Final Fantasy
Valve Corporation - Team Fortress, Half Life series
Electronic Arts - Battlefield series, FIFA series
Nintendo - Super Mario
ZeniMax Media - Elder Scrolls, Fallout
Konami - Metal Gear series
Take-Two Interactive - Grand Theft Auto, Borderlands, Bioshock
Sony Computer Entertainment - Uncharted, Killzone, LittleBigPlanet
Ubisoft - Assasins Creed, Tom Clancey suit of games, Rayman
Activision Blizzard - Call of Duty, Warcraft

 

[Unregistered 4U]

I do not accept the argument that game publishers are not interested in mac gaming because they perceive the mac gaming market is not big enough for them to invest time and money into because Epic did it with Fortnite.

No one is going to force you to accept reality. However, the reality for a company in software development/publishing is… to figure out, with their limited development resources, how best to direct their actions in a way that will yield a sufficient return on investment. Each one goes through fairly similar calculations. For most, publishing something for macOS doesn’t make financial sense. For some, it does, and, as a result, they publish something for macOS.

The fact that Epic did it with Fortnite is actually an example of that rationale being true. One would expect, based on the above, that a larger company, with a greater pool of resources, already making money on other platforms with established IP, would be one in a better position for publishing something for macOS, and that’s what you see.

In publisher speak, it’s “We are always evaluating market conditions and examining new opportunities for growth.”

 

[diamond.g]

These are some of the top gaming publishers (in no particular order) with some of their most notable games mentioned.

​

Square Enix - Dragon Quest, Final Fantasy
Valve Corporation - Team Fortress, Half Life series
Electronic Arts - Battlefield series, FIFA series
Nintendo - Super Mario
ZeniMax Media - Elder Scrolls, Fallout
Konami - Metal Gear series
Take-Two Interactive - Grand Theft Auto, Borderlands, Bioshock
Sony Computer Entertainment - Uncharted, Killzone, LittleBigPlanet
Ubisoft - Assasins Creed, Tom Clancey suit of games, Rayman
Activision Blizzard - Call of Duty, Warcraft

Also Square Enix: Marvel Avengers and Marvel Guardians of the Galaxy (both action role-playing brawlers)