Apple CAN’T do AAA gaming [Merged Megathread]

[Unregistered 4U]

Careful you are starting to sound like @leman with his Proton rant/concern.

LOL it’s a REAL concern, though I’m not as religious about it. It’s more of a realization… I mean, look at BootCamp. Did having an easy way to run PC games on the Mac help Mac gaming at all? Not really, any publisher that HAD a small team focused on making sure there were still some way to make the game cross platform likely disbanded that team because if a Mac user wanted to play their game, they’d figure it out themselves (installing Windows, etc.)

And, I guess there’s an interesting split here… is “Gaming on the Mac” the goal? OR is “Gaming natively on macOS on Apple Silicon?” I’d say the second one would be the best possible outcome and, unfortunately, the least likely to occur. Because “Gaming on the Mac” includes virtualization, emulation, etc. Which, it’s cool that it’s possible. But, if THAT is “good enough”, then we’d need to toss “Gaming natively on macOS on Apple Silicon” out the door because it’d never happen.

 

[jmho]

From the legal proceedings, Apple appears to have bent over backwards providing support to Epic, and I doubt they were the only ones.


They’re ALREADY offending Apple users… by NOT releasing their game. And what’s their downside for offending Apple users currently? Are all the PC and Console users standing behind Apple users, never buying another game until the company makes a game for the Mac? No. There’s no downside to offending Apple users.

Simultaneously, there are folks that are working hard to do the work of the publisher for free, making patches and install instructions for how to get the game running well on a Mac. So, for currently offending Apple users… the publisher’s still able to sell games to Mac users because someone else has figured out how to make them work.

From my experience of dealing with Apple via an incredibly large publisher, they were incredibly helpful at providing technical support, it's the business side where Apple is unwilling to make any concessions or even answer any questions, which is the total opposite of Sony / MS and is very frustrating to publishers who are trying to plan and coordinate a massive release on multiple platforms.

Also the main reason they don't want to offend Apple users directly is that there are plenty of Apple users who game, they just don't do it on Apple devices.

 

[leman]

LOL it’s a REAL concern, though I’m not as religious about it.

Im not religious about it, I just have OPINIONS

And, I guess there’s an interesting split here… is “Gaming on the Mac” the goal? OR is “Gaming natively on macOS on Apple Silicon?” I’d say the second one would be the best possible outcome and, unfortunately, the least likely to occur. Because “Gaming on the Mac” includes virtualization, emulation, etc. Which, it’s cool that it’s possible. But, if THAT is “good enough”, then we’d need to toss “Gaming natively on macOS on Apple Silicon” out the door because it’d never happen.

Yep, that's the core of the issue, really. Personally, I don't share your pessimism though, and think that gaming natively on Apple Silicon will definitely improve over the new few years, for the following reasons:

- developing and testing for Apple Silicon is often simpler than developing and testing for Intel Macs (better drivers)
- ARM support in third-party will be improving, leaving less roadblocks
- developers will become more comfortable with Metal and ARM in general (case in point, next web GPU API, WebGPU is based on Metal DNA, Apple did good strategic work there)
- gaming performance of ARM Macs will improve over the next years, making games on Mac more desirable and more lucrative

Paradoxically enough, I think that in oder for gaming on Mac to thrive, Intel Macs have to die.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

From my experience of dealing with Apple via an incredibly large publisher, they were incredibly helpful at providing technical support, it's the business side where Apple is unwilling to make any concessions or even answer any questions, which is the total opposite of Sony / MS and is very frustrating to publishers who are trying to plan and coordinate a massive release on multiple platforms.

AH! Yes, I can understand that split between the behavior of the two.

Also the main reason they don't want to offend Apple users directly is that there are plenty of Apple users who game, they just don't do it on Apple devices.

But, if I’m playing Cyberpunk 2077 on a gaming PC I bought because it doesn’t run on the Mac (or on a console for the same reason), and the publisher says, “The Mac gaming market is too small”, they’d just be saying what I already realize (else I wouldn’t have had to build a gaming PC/buy a console). There are a LOT of Apple users just from the phone alone… I don’t think any of those users would stop using the console/PC they bought in protest for a comment a company made about the OTHER company that makes their phone.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

- developers will become more comfortable with Metal and ARM in general (case in point, next web GPU API, WebGPU is based on Metal DNA, Apple did good strategic work there)

Brilliant! That could mean a lot of interesting things!

Paradoxically enough, I think that in oder for gaming on Mac to thrive, Intel Macs have to die.

I think that Intel Macs have to die, and Windows on ARM for Apple Silicon has to NOT become a thing. If there’s ANY shortcut where your average person has a low cost and easy way to just leave macOS behind, they will.

 

[jmho]

But, if I’m playing Cyberpunk 2077 on a gaming PC I bought because it doesn’t run on the Mac (or on a console for the same reason), and the publisher says, “The Mac gaming market is too small”, they’d just be saying what I already realize (else I wouldn’t have had to build a gaming PC/buy a console). There are a LOT of Apple users just from the phone alone… I don’t think any of those users would stop using the console/PC they bought in protest for a comment a company made about the OTHER company that makes their phone.

Yeah, that's a really good answer, but then a bunch of PC gaming websites pick up your response and rephrase for clicks it as "<Publisher> thinks Macs suck at gaming: Why you won't be seeing <Publisher>'s games on Mac any time soon." and the internet does its thing and suddenly you have a bunch of people yelling at you for no reason.

Much easier to just ignore the question because there's nothing to gain by answering it.

 

[januarydrive7]

I think the biggest issue with "the mac gaming market is too small" is that it's a description of the status quo, not of what it could be.

I think that Intel Macs have to die, and Windows on ARM for Apple Silicon has to NOT become a thing. If there’s ANY shortcut where your average person has a low cost and easy way to just leave macOS behind, they will.

I've said it before: big publishers more than likely have detailed data on potential revenue, including gamers who own macs, but play on their PCs/consoles. If there is a big enough potential market, without any easy way to just leave macOS behind, then we'd definitely see publishers moving quicker to support AS.

 

[Adarna]

Apple Execs on gaming on the Mac

 

[Homy]

Apple Execs on gaming on the Mac

Interesting but very short answer...

 

[GrumpyCoder]

If they are worried they will not sell enough games to break even or even make a profit because the mac community for the whole does not show a large interest in playing games on their mac computer, then get them to say so.

No one is going to tell you that. You’re not getting exact sales numbers from anyone, that’s a holy business secret. All you will get it “yes”, “no” or “maybe”.

There’s no downside to offending Apple users.

Sure there is. When you tell me nothing and a game is not available, I might go ahead and buy it for Windows/consoles and just live with it. When someone tells me to f-off because I’m not important enough then I won’t buy it for any other system.
Back in my industry days, the standard answer for someone asking was “not right now, sorry, we’re thinking about it, but there are no current plans. As soon as we have more details, we’ll get back to you”. That’s how things work. ?‍♂️

 

[laptech]

No one is going to tell you that. You’re not getting exact sales numbers from anyone, that’s a holy business secret. All you will get it “yes”, “no” or “maybe”.

Sure there is. When you tell me nothing and a game is not available, I might go ahead and buy it for Windows/consoles and just live with it. When someone tells me to f-off because I’m not important enough then I won’t buy it for any other system.
Back in my industry days, the standard answer for someone asking was “not right now, sorry, we’re thinking about it, but there are no current plans. As soon as we have more details, we’ll get back to you”. That’s how things work. ?‍♂️

And in todays society, when you hear those words “not right now, sorry, we’re thinking about it, but there are no current plans. As soon as we have more details, we’ll get back to you” you know what they are really saying is 'Your not important enough so F-off'

 

[Huntn]

But this is just it, there should be no limitations or bottlenecks with regards to todays mac computers. Across the board you've got supporters of Apple saying just how good Apple silicon (AS) is. There are loads of review sites doing benchmark tests coming back saying how good AS is against it's rivals Intel and AMD. You now got the same supporters and review sites singing the same tune about the new M1 Max pro. You've even got Apple gleaming at how good it's GPU is.

Theres is tons and tons of antidotal evidence that AS is blowing away the competition so why is it that we are not hearing of any AAA games publisher anouncing a raft of games to be ported to macOS? The hardware is supposedly capable of handling AAA games (depends on who you believe) so it can't be a hardware constraint issue that's stopping them. As shown with PC gaming, people are prepared to spend out thousands of $$$ on gaming machines, therefore pricey computers is not an issue either. Games have been written for macOS in the past so it's very diffcuilt to claim that is macOS coding issues stopping them.

This why in one of my posts I suggested that macrumours speak to the main players in the gaming world to find out why gaming publishers are so reluctant to code their AAA games for mac computers when supposedly with AS, everything is in place for them to do so and if it's for the reasons that many have suggested then for macrumours to get them to admit it, if possible.

Well, if there are no bottlenecks, if the MacOS no longer suffers from optimization disadvantages due to the games development environment, and it‘s not an inordinate amount of work to port it, it would be puzzling why games in general don’t have a Mac version, unless there are just not enough Apple Silicon machines out there yet to consider it a viable segment of the gaming market?

 

[Bandaman]

Mac used to have games. Halo was originally a Mac exclusive. I remember them showing off Halo during one of the Apple events. It's not like Mac has never been a gaming platform. And it's not like Apple doesn't care about gaming. Gaming is huge on the iPhone. You can even now play a lot of iPhone games on macOS thanks to the M1 architecture. I would just like to start seeing more AAA games on the Mac instead of it being all mobile games.

 

[GrumpyCoder]

And in todays society, when you hear those words “not right now, sorry, we’re thinking about it, but there are no current plans. As soon as we have more details, we’ll get back to you” you know what they are really saying is 'Your not important enough so F-off'

Well, that's the attitude of a 5 year old in a candy store who can't get everything. People think they're entitles to everything. I agree it's a problem with many people in todays society having their head up their rear end. People need to start living in reality, not in their fantasy world.

Well, if there are no bottlenecks, if the MacOS no longer suffers from optimization disadvantages due to the games development environment, and it‘s not an inordinate amount of work to port it, it would be puzzling why games in general don’t have a Mac version, unless there are just not enough Apple Silicon machines out there yet to consider it a viable segment of the gaming market?

If that were the case, sure. However, for AAA games it's usually not a simple port it's a lot of work and costs a ton of money and studios need to make that money back, which for the Mac is usually not the case.

Halo was originally a Mac exclusive.

Well, not really. I was announced as a Mac exclusive, but never made it to release in that form.

 

[Bandaman]

Well, not really. I was announced as a Mac exclusive, but never made it to release in that form.

Yes, I know. It never became a Mac exclusive. I'm just saying it started out that way.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

I've said it before: big publishers more than likely have detailed data on potential revenue, including gamers who own macs, but play on their PCs/consoles. If there is a big enough potential market, without any easy way to just leave macOS behind, then we'd definitely see publishers moving quicker to support AS.

Thing is, everyone “currently” playing their games, that they have information on, are willing to play their games on a platform that’s not a Mac or are actively playing their games on a platform that’s not a Mac. So, there’s a VERY easy way to provide games to that group right now with no other new development required. What they would NEED information on, which there’s no easy way for them to get in order help them make the decision to develop SPECIFICALLY for AS, are folks that are not gaming at all that WOULD game if they could game on their Mac.

 

[januarydrive7]

Thing is, everyone “currently” playing their games, that they have information on, are willing to play their games on a platform that’s not a Mac or are actively playing their games on a platform that’s not a Mac. So, there’s a VERY easy way to provide games to that group right now with no other new development required. What they would NEED information on, which there’s no easy way for them to get in order help them make the decision to develop SPECIFICALLY for AS, are folks that are not gaming at all that WOULD game if they could game on their Mac.

That's a good point --- why develop for person X if they have some other platform that already plays our games?

Even so, that type of data might influence developers to reconsider what their next title runs on --- it's one thing to spend resources porting an existing game, it's a completely different thing to design a game for multi-platform use from the get-go. I'm hoping that the mac's hardware shift encourages developers (not just game publishers) to consider thinking about macOS as a first class citizen during the design stage.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

Sure there is. When you tell me nothing and a game is not available, I might go ahead and buy it for Windows/consoles and just live with it. When someone tells me to f-off because I’m not important enough then I won’t buy it for any other system.
Back in my industry days, the standard answer for someone asking was “not right now, sorry, we’re thinking about it, but there are no current plans. As soon as we have more details, we’ll get back to you”. That’s how things work. ?‍♂️

So, if someone wants to pay for and play a game on a system that they own, say, a Playstation, and a company tells them they’re NOT going to make the game for the Xbox, that they also own, you think they’re not going to buy and play the game for the Playstation until the company says they’re going to make the game for the Xbox… where’s the upside for the company unless the people in question are going to buy the game for both systems?

The only downside is, as the other poster mentioned, a ineffectual social media drizzle from folks that really aren’t in a position to be important to the publisher. Which, of course, would be drowned out by the torrent of comments by non-Mac folks which actually buy their games and which outnumber Mac folks by a fairly significant amount.

 

[Huntn]

Well, that's the attitude of a 5 year old in a candy store who can't get everything. People think they're entitles to everything. I agree it's a problem with many people in todays society having their head up their rear end. People need to start living in reality, not in their fantasy world.

If that were the case, sure. However, for AAA games it's usually not a simple port it's a lot of work and costs a ton of money and studios need to make that money back, which for the Mac is usually not the case.

Well, not really. I was announced as a Mac exclusive, but never made it to release in that form.

I was more or less asking the other member if the ifs I mentioned was the state of Mac Game development or not, such as bottlenecks, or environmental development obstacles. ?

 

[GrumpyCoder]

So, if someone wants to pay for and play a game on a system that they own, say, a Playstation, and a company tells them they’re NOT going to make the game for the Xbox, that they also own, you think they’re not going to buy and play the game for the Playstation until the company says they’re going to make the game for the Xbox… where’s the upside for the company unless the people in question are going to buy the game for both systems?

No. That company just says nothing, people see it's only available for x which they own besides their y and buy it. That's why companies don't say anything about it, they don't run out and tell people they're idiots for buying y and then hope people will still buy it for x.

I was more or less asking the other member if the ifs I mentioned was the state of Mac Game development or not, such as bottlenecks, or environmental development obstacles. ?

And I was just responding to it confirming what you suggested. The price of porting games is higher than the number of people on a Mac buying the games. Studios are making a loss porting games, unless games are very simple to port. The more complex the game (AAA = $$$), the harder it is.

And in general, Minecraft for example created a ton of money, I still wouldn't call it a AAA game. Because the original game was cheap to make. They've recently put a lot of money into technology, so it might be a AAA game now.

 

[Huntn]

No. That company just says nothing, people see it's only available for x which they own besides their y and buy it. That's why companies don't say anything about it, they don't run out and tell people they're idiots for buying y and then hope people will still buy it for x.

And I was just responding to it confirming what you suggested. The price of porting games is higher than the number of people on a Mac buying the games. Studios are making a loss porting games, unless games are very simple to port. The more complex the game (AAA = $$$), the harder it is.

And in general, Minecraft for example created a ton of money, I still wouldn't call it a AAA game. Because the original game was cheap to make. They've recently put a lot of money into technology, so it might be a AAA game now.

Minecraft needs to get themselves up to date with voxel building. It’s so damn primitive, and I can’t say it’s quaint, yet I still see elaborate builds in it that knock my socks off, while speculating that it could be so much more than it is.

 

[Todd H]

What’s sad is back in the pre-OS X days the Mac had a pretty vibrant game scene. Sure it wasn’t as big as the PC gaming scene, but there were lots of great games and a lot of the best games were ported over. Now Apple could not care less about gaming on the Mac.

 

[pmiles]

Minecraft needs to get themselves up to date with voxel building. It’s so damn primitive, and I can’t say it’s quaint, yet I still see elaborate builds in it that knock my socks off, while speculating that it could be so much more than it is.

Doesn't Voxel by TrionWorlds already do that?

Also, retro is a thing in and of itself... sometime not being state of the art is what keeps the game popular.

 

[Realityck]

The $3499 M1 Max 32GB 1TB model playing a number of existing games in this video.

M1 Max MacBook Pro Gaming Review - 00:00 Windows Gaming using Parallels 17 - 1:10 Windows Gaming using Crossover 21 - 1:45 Rocket League (Crossover) - 2:54 Hearthstone Card Game (x86 Rosetta)- 4:06 Diablo 3 (x86 Rosetta) - 5:01 Starcraft 2 (x86 Rosetta) - 6:39 World of Warcraft (Native) - 8:01 Grand Theft Auto V (Crossover) - 10:35 Dota 2 (x86 Rosetta) - 13:48 Counter Strike: GO (x86 Rosetta) - 15:23 Path of Exile (x86 Rosetta) - 17:07 Minecraft (86 Rosetta) - 18:25 League of Legends - 19:50 Witcher 3 (Crossover) - 21:25 Overwatch (Parallels 17) - 23:37 Use the Coupon Codes in Description! - 25:41

 

[Huntn]

Doesn't Voxel by TrionWorlds already do that?

Also, retro is a thing in and of itself... sometime not being state of the art is what keeps the game popular.

I’m not familiar, but have have seen other voxel games that have highly complex objects that can be added to the landscape. And it is really inconceivable to me at this point in time that Mojango Minecraft has not introduced basic shapes like triangular (ramps) or circular objects. Yeah sure, wheel your wagon up the stairs.