Apple CAN’T do AAA gaming [Merged Megathread]

[Falhófnir]

What’s sad is back in the pre-OS X days the Mac had a pretty vibrant game scene. Sure it wasn’t as big as the PC gaming scene, but there were lots of great games and a lot of the best games were ported over. Now Apple could not care less about gaming on the Mac.

Apple Silicon is a pretty ideal platform for gaming, considering you could probably make a game work across iPad Pro to 16" MacBook Pro and everything in between. The biggest showstopper with Intel was that the majority of the Mac installed base was MacBook Airs and 13 inch MacBook Pros with crappy Intel iGPUs. The 15/16" MacBook Pros and iMacs with dedicated graphics were in a tiny minority. The basic M1 is now more than capable of handling AAA titles (even if you have to turn settings down a bit) so that and adding in the iPad market changes things drastically. Just needs Apple to do the footwork with game studios.

 

[theorist9]

Apple has created...some of the most advanced programming frameworks for games.

I think in order to attract developers it needs to be not only advanced, but also user-friendly. I'm thinking of how scientific programmers find CUDA much easier to program in than OpenGL, which explains a lot of NVIDIA's success in that area. Compared to the existing Windows programming framework for games, is Apple's more like CUDA or OpenGL when it comes to ease of use?

I'd like to hear from some AAA devs who've spent time trying out Apple's framework to hear their take.

They feature multiple sessions for developers on how to develop games for Macs, including showcasing their work with studios.

I don't think this is enough. I think if Apple were serious about getting AAA games on the Mac, they would identify a handful of major AAA gaming companies and offer, to each, to embed one or two of their gaming framework experts for an extended period of time. [Heck, maybe they're already doing this.] If Apple wants one of these companies to take the early-stage risk* to invest the substantial funds needed to produce a fully optimized Mac port, I don't think it's too much to ask them to spare an FTE or two. Or, if they don't have enough FTE's to spare now, then Apple should hire some gaming experts, train them in their framework, and then offer them as embeds. That would show a serious interest in getting AAA gaming running on the Mac.

*They wouldn't necessarily need to do this on an ongoing basis. Rather, this would be support for the companies taking the risk of being the first to invest dev costs in Mac ports, without knowing what the market will be.

 

[JahBoolean]

[nonsense]

 

[Adamantoise]

Might I suggest that apple does not want to associate with the current AAA industry because of the same reasons they started sparring with the data mining corporations.

The allure of consumer protection.

Correct me if I am wrong but the current state of big "gaming" is terribly appaling, with most "franchises" simply being reskins of the same game engine and mechanics with a slew of new assets, Riddled with gamification mechanics tailored to extract more money from their users. Practices hopefully in the process of getting regulated [see the belgian lootbox case].

Therefore one would stand to reason that the most inspiring video-ludic experiences would sprout from mid / indie sized game studios unbound by the open market [i.e private ownership of companies].

We have already seen apple rewarding games novel game mechanics and masterfully directed experiences, offering the opportunity for subsidizing developement through the arcade.

One would expect that with VR looming ahead, and a growing need for "content", that subsidizing behaviour would increase [for the time being] therefore strengthening the bond with developpers willing to adopt apple's framework and design philosophy.

TL;DR
current triple A bad, behavioural modification ethically reprehensible, not apple's cup of tea
get indies on board with arcade, start building VR apps
AAA die out and apple stock hits 3T

Nothing you say here actually makes much sense if you stop to think about it for a bit.

AAA games exist on iOS after all, so the notion that Apple doesn't want to associate with games is false.

Correct me if I am wrong but the current state of big "gaming" is terribly appaling, with most "franchises" simply being reskins of the same game engine and mechanics with a slew of new assets, Riddled with gamification mechanics tailored to extract more money from their users. Practices hopefully in the process of getting regulated [see the belgian lootbox case].

I mean, this is false; but more importantly, where are you getting these notions from? What do you consider "big gaming" exactly?

Forgive me here but some of you sound unhinged?... macOS isn't excelling at games therefore games are bad? Nothing in your post makes any kind of sense, it's just a bunch of conjecture thrown around to arrive at some conclusion.

 

[JouniS]

Correct me if I am wrong but the current state of big "gaming" is terribly appaling, with most "franchises" simply being reskins of the same game engine and mechanics with a slew of new assets, Riddled with gamification mechanics tailored to extract more money from their users. Practices hopefully in the process of getting regulated [see the belgian lootbox case].

That describes mobile gaming and certain competitive multiplayer games rather than AAA gaming. AAA games are more like superhero movies: they are all about sequels. A studio takes a game concept that sells, tries to improve it, repackages it, and sells it again.

 

[JahBoolean]

Nothing you say here actually makes much sense if you stop to think about it for a bit.

AAA games exist on iOS after all, so the notion that Apple doesn't want to associate with games is false.



I mean, this is false; but more importantly, where are you getting these notions from? What do you consider "big gaming" exactly?

Forgive me here but some of you sound unhinged?... macOS isn't excelling at games therefore games are bad? Nothing in your post makes any kind of sense, it's just a bunch of conjecture thrown around to arrive at some conclusion.

Sleep deprivation got the best of me.

Apologies for dragging you through that ...

 

[diamond.g]

Have any of the M1 owners tried playing Halo Infinite yet?

 

[GrumpyCoder]

Have any of the M1 owners tried playing Halo Infinite yet?

Requires DX12 doesn't it?

 

[diamond.g]

Requires DX12 doesn't it?

Wait, Crossoever can't transcode DX12 games? I thought it could.

 

[pi=e=3]

Wait, Crossoever can't transcode DX12 games? I thought it could.

Not yet. They're working on it, but who knows if/when it will work.

 

[diamond.g]

Not yet. They're working on it, but who knows if/when it will work.

I wonder what the hold up is.

 

[iamasmith]

mmm, well I think Metal is a start but the thing that really drives AAA games towards PC are the capabilities of latest DirectX versions. I haven't looked at parity between the two APIs but the thing is that XBox and PC can be targeted with a fairly similar codebase to produce the engine to render that detail.. and let's not forget that these engines do the physics of compelling games as well as the graphics so if you don't have the engine as a studio to layer on top of the API then you choose where you are going to get your income.
I know that some of this stuff comes in other APIs but I think AAA studios just want a single engine and that's maybe what's holding back some of the major AAA players - also noting that many Mac users keep their devices longer and possibly have hardware that won't deliver is a factor in their thinking.
Mobile gaming is quite different.. performance and graphics capability of iOS has been out there for quite a while and the market penetration is too compelling to ignore. DirectX isn't really a factor given the stuttering adoption and abandonment of a lot of mobile platforms by Microsoft.
Consoles are another factor, you may see a game for PS(n) or XBox(n) and some houses will go to the effort of developing for both if the market is there but the compatibility of the API plus the incentive for single platform exclusives will limit those.
Consider a company that wants max return and recognition for a game... they are always going to target the more prevalent platform for gaming and only if there is a compelling reason explore other options.
I still prefer my Mac for everything and really am thankful that companies like Blizzard chose to develop for Mac as well as PC for the game that I really only play these days - World of Warcraft. I just hope that the transfer of undertakings up to Activision that we recently heard of doesn't halt this effort.

 

[leman]

mmm, well I think Metal is a start but the thing that really drives AAA games towards PC are the capabilities of latest DirectX versions.

The thing that drives AAA games towards the PC and DirectX is the fact that the overwhelming majority of their customers use a windows PC.

API-wise, Metal is certainly more pleasant to work with and is certainly not "less capable" (whatever that means) than DX12.

I haven't looked at parity between the two APIs but the thing is that XBox and PC can be targeted with a fairly similar codebase to produce the engine to render that detail.. and let's not forget that these engines do the physics of compelling games as well as the graphics so if you don't have the engine as a studio to layer on top of the API then you choose where you are going to get your income.

Developing a multi-API engine is not a big problem... if you plan ahead and use proper abstractions. All you need is interest and technical knowledge (neither of which is in abundance unfortunately when it comes to targeting macOS).

 

[iamasmith]

@leman I think I suggested that point but possibly more circuitously.

It's about, and I don't think you'll disagree, perceived ROI.

 

[leman]

@leman I think I suggested that point but possibly more circuitously.

It's about, and I don't think you'll disagree, perceived ROI.

Oh, there is no doubt about it. Developing Mac games is a risky enterprise. Still, things change.

 

[GrumpyCoder]

Wait, Crossoever can't transcode DX12 games? I thought it could.

No, neither Crossover nor Parallels can, at least not all features. So this probably won’t run unless it has a DX11 fallback mode.

EDIT: Food for thought:

https://www.reddit.com/r/macgaming/comments/qdjamq

 

[diamond.g]

So general consensus on Dave2D’s take?

 

[Ceed]

Apple 100%, without a shadow of a doubt, notices the demand for AAA gaming, just like they noticed the cries for an affordable xMac tower.

(They noticed it, that's all.)

 

[throAU]

Hmm. I just finished playing Divinity Original Sin 2 for the past 2-3 hours.

1920x1080 hooked up to an external display on an M1-Pro.

No fan noise. Dead silent.


For a laptop that seems pretty OK to me?

 

[CasualFanboy]

The simple and most obvious issue here is that Apple doesn't want the Mac to be a gaming platform. It devalues what these devices stand for, productivity. Neither is there enough Mac users for it to be a platform AAA developers care for.

Apple Silicon is so new in any event that the majority of the 100m+ Mac owners are still on intel, it will be a decade before that substantially swings in the other direction and even then, maybe 10-15% are serious gamers. Not enough for developers to care for. And serious gamers have a PC, simple as that.

I know this is sort of a necro-quote, but it is almost verbatim what I would have said anyway.

If they ever started making a serious effort at inroads into the gaming scene, I would be very worried. It's already bad enough that OSX was supplanted by iOS as Apple's first love, leading to "macos" and the visual semi-convergence toward a more "simplified" interface.

Gaming would require a massive amount of focus and resources. You would start to see more neglected features in the productivity space, unaddressed annoyances, bit rot, etc.

Please, don't ever let this become a reality. Get a Windows PC, which to me seems like an expensive and glorified console at this point.

 

[CasualFanboy]

Hmm. I just finished playing Divinity Original Sin 2 for the past 2-3 hours.

1920x1080 hooked up to an external display on an M1-Pro.

No fan noise. Dead silent.


For a laptop that seems pretty OK to me?

Yes, you're coming at this from the perspective of someone who uses your Macbook Pro for its intended purpose.

I don't even want to think about the avalanche of gaming spergs flooding every discussion of Macbook products that would come along with some official focus toward gaming.

 

[throAU]

Yes, you're coming at this from the perspective of someone who uses your Macbook Pro for its intended purpose.

I don't even want to think about the avalanche of gaming spergs flooding every discussion of Macbook products that would come along with some official focus toward gaming.

I'll also add to my post. Right here on the same desk I have a Radeon 6900XT equipped gaming PC.

It makes a whole heap of coil whine while playing DOS2.

The MacBook makes less noise playing the same game than the PC does AT IDLE, with its case fans and liquid CPU cooler set up.

Sure, the desktop PC will run way more intensive stuff at a higher frame rate, but the fact that this MacBook can run that game with zero fan noise in under 1/8th of the power requirement is just... incredible.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

https://www.reddit.com/r/macgaming/comments/qdjamq

And, of course, the downside is that as long as there’s an avenue for a vendor to obtain a sale without doing ANY extra work (make a game for PC and Mac users have to find a way themselves to play it on their system), then that’s what they’ll do.

Even if they have metrics to show that their game sold 5 million copies on the Mac, it will have sold 5 million copies without them doing any of the work to help get it to run on the Mac. That’s a pretty good return on an investment of zero.

 

[CasualFanboy]

I'll also add to my post. Right here on the same desk I have a Radeon 6900XT equipped gaming PC.

It makes a whole heap of coil whine while playing DOS2.

The MacBook makes less noise playing the same game than the PC does AT IDLE, with its case fans and liquid CPU cooler set up.

Sure, the desktop PC will run way more intensive stuff at a higher frame rate, but the fact that this MacBook can run that game with zero fan noise in under 1/8th of the power requirement is just... incredible.

My head is nodding in agreement while reading this. Because this fits the profile of a person who buys a Macbook for the purposes that it serves far better than PC's ever have and ever will. Microsoft's business model is just way different.

The old saying, "be careful what you ask for," applies here. Understand that if Apple is successfully convinced to focus on gaming, you will sacrifice many of the things you love about Macs right now.

 

[throAU]

The old saying, "be careful what you ask for," applies here. Understand that if Apple is successfully convinced to focus on gaming, you will sacrifice many of the things you love about Macs right now.

Thing is, I don't think they need to change focus, and they've been focused on the things required for gaming for a good decade at this point, they've just been held back by intel hardware, vs. the devices they want to make.

Apple could do basically zero additional work vs. what they've been doing since roughly 2014 when they introduced metal and they will end up with more and more games on macOS. Why? Because the CPU and GPU architecture across iPhone, Mac and iPad is now unified, the software APIs are unified to the point where iOS apps will even run on macOS.

They do not need to divert any resources at this point, it's already all there. The only thing holding stuff back has been hardware, and now that's fixed.

All this also feeds into AR/VR. Unless you've been living under a rock and ignoring every other thing Tim Cook says about what he finds exciting, all this software is coming together for AR. Which shares a huge amount of tech with 3d gaming and VR.

I'm sure some here will cry about how PCs have better ultra high end gaming hardware. It simply doesn't matter. The switch is the best selling console right now and it has low end hardware from 2017 in it. What matters is software and with the iPad, iPhone Mac and AppleTV all sharing a common platform, any game developer would be insane to ignore developing for that shared platform. You're talking hundreds of millions of active devices.