Apple CAN’T do AAA gaming [Merged Megathread]

[cardfan]

Nah,
it’s just you and many people here don’t know this is how many companies got into the gaming industry including Sony and Microsoft.

Yep it’s just so simple. Hire people with game experience to do it? What a concept. I mean that’s all you’ve been spouting. Hey I know if apple decides to do a car I bet they should hire people who can do that. Or how about a tv service. Apple should hire people that have experience doing that. Because everyone knows apple can’t do tv shows.

I’m confident apple does have people there that know if it’s worthwhile to target aaa gaming. So far the answer has been nope. So no need to hire the amazing aaa folks who are all knowing.

 

[diamond.g]

Yep it’s just so simple. Hire people with game experience to do it? What a concept. I mean that’s all you’ve been spouting. Hey I know if apple decides to do a car I bet they should hire people who can do that. Or how about a tv service. Apple should hire people that have experience doing that. Because everyone knows apple can’t do tv shows.

I’m confident apple does have people there that know if it’s worthwhile to target aaa gaming. So far the answer has been nope. So no need to hire the amazing aaa folks who are all knowing.

I wonder if making a car has better ROI than making a game.

 

[droidgod]

This has got to be performance art of some kind

lol, The gaming gremlins have been poking their heads up in various unproductive threads in this forum.

Don't worry they will get bored and leave in a week and will be back when apple releases their next mac.

C'est la vie....

 

[aevan]

The simple and most obvious issue here is that Apple doesn't want the Mac to be a gaming platform. It devalues what these devices stand for, productivity. Neither is there enough Mac users for it to be a platform AAA developers care for.

I disagree. Apple loves entertainment and consumption. And not every Mac is used as a productivity device (they are general computing devices after all) - people use them to watch movies, listen to music and - yes - play games. And Apple knows it - otherwise it wouldn't put Apple Arcade on them or even show Tomb Raider in their first Apple Silicon demonstration (or Diablo 3 on their first Mac Retina keynote).

Also - Apple will gladly take the profits from the gaming industry. It would help drive hardware sales, they take a cut from the Mac App Store - they would not avoid this for some ideological reasons.

It's just that Apple doesn't really get games (I'm starting to believe that theory, and I first heard it on the ATP podcast). They think Apple Arcade is the answer to gaming. Also, getting AAA games on the Mac in a major way would still require effort, resources and time - and I do believe their focus was always elsewhere.

But it would take one senior executive into gaming to get that rolling. And they certainly have the resources to make it happen. They could easily buy exclusivity, buy development studios or - as we've seen with Microsoft - entire publishers. I guess it's just not a business Apple wants to get in currently. Which is a shame, and I hope it changes some day.

 

[EntropyQ3]

On the subject of installed base of Apple Silicon Macs, analysts apparently did napkin math too and estimated that Apple sold 6.5 million laptops this Q3. Add Mac Minis to taste. The platform sees rapid growth.

 

[jmho]

These kind of threads are going to be hilarious to look back at in a couple of years.

Sure, Apple could have used watt-hungry standard-architecture GPUs that would allow them to use a standard API like Vulkan. Macs would still be second class citizens to Windows / DirectX, but at least we could limp along slightly better than we do today. Maybe Apple could have even paid AMD to make their own console SoC that would rival the PS5 / XSX and Apple could blow billions of dollars making AAA games to try to challenge MS / Sony head-on.

Alternatively, they do what they have done, making their own hyper-efficient and relatively cheap (for them) to make GPUs and a custom API that can drive it. Then they take a cut-down M1 Max and start putting them inside an Apple TV enclosure and watch Sony and Microsoft start questioning their life choices.

It seems incredibly obvious to me that Apple is coming for AAA gaming - you don't "accidentally" make a GPU that can run with a 3080 mobile, and that's probably part of the reason why companies like Epic are freaking out, because there is a significant danger that if Apple wanted to, they could Nokia the entire gaming industry.

 

[NotTooLate]

The right tool for the right job. High-end graphics requires some serious hardware... hardware funneled to a specific use. People can't seem to wrap their heads around the fact that a gaming PC is built with the sole end use of gaming in mind. It's not the fact that you put X graphics card in it, it's the fact that every little nuance of the setup is optimized purely for gaming. A gaming rig is not optimized for high-end graphics, so again, right tool for the right job.

Think about it people. Why do consoles even exist? If any old computer is capable of doing the same thing (or so you would like to think), why is there even a market for such a niche piece of hardware? Right tool for the right job.

You've smacked this dead horse so many times that even the ASPCA no longer pays attention. It hasn't been a horse for quite some time now. Time to "get woke" and buy yourself a gaming PC, and never have this discussion again... because it is the literal definition of insanity.

Not speaking directly to Huntn, he just sparked my response. The OP is the one who needs to get a grip. The M1 chip is not the magically little device you have all been waiting for... for gaming. It's not what it was designed for. Not that you can't try an force it to do it... happy accidents and all... but the reality is, without anyone actually making games for the Mac platform, there is no market whatsoever to speak of. None. So instead of shouting at the top of your lungs that Apple has failed you... it's not Apple you should be yelling at... it's the game developers. You want the next Diablo game on the Mac? Well good luck with that. You're lucky if they continue to support what few titles they have left on the Mac.

"Why do consoles even exist?"
FYI Consoles are there because they make more money then PC gaming machines for the SW developers and Console makers , that's it , the fact that you buy a 500$ PS5 is not because the machine is cheap to build/design , they are not making money on the console , but Sony gets 30% out of every SW sale on the platform , they dont have a real OS on it so they usually dont have much of pirating , Xbox is a PC , It has an AMD APU , standard SSD , standard RAM , everything a PC needs , but MS would not let you run windows on it , why ? again , they make 30% out of each game you buy , while on the PC side they make ...... ZILTCH.

A little off topic but as long as I am typing :
Ask yourself this , why wont AMD sell you the Console SoC , it has great CPU & GPU , instead they sell crap APU`s that barely outperform the Intels and get CRUSHED by the Apple SoC`s ? you can figure it out I bet , ill let you few hints , starts with margins and ends with margins.

Apple are giving you the best (by far) transistor per $ in the industry as they cut their margins out of the product and not the Silicon sale , people never mention it in any review or thread , but this is a BIG win for the consumer , saying the Apple SoC is big vs what Intel/AMD sells so of course it will be better , is actually a WIN for Apple not something to excuse the X86 folks.

On topic , I will agree with the crowd that thinks Apple will need to show the way and pay developers to create games/ port them in the near future if they want to get traction , BG3 is a good example , developers in turn will be in a market without much competition (at the start) and get a lot of free publicity running native on the Mac.

 

[diamond.g]

These kind of threads are going to be hilarious to look back at in a couple of years.

Sure, Apple could have used watt-hungry standard-architecture GPUs that would allow them to use a standard API like Vulkan. Macs would still be second class citizens to Windows / DirectX, but at least we could limp along slightly better than we do today. Maybe Apple could have even paid AMD to make their own console SoC that would rival the PS5 / XSX and Apple could blow billions of dollars making AAA games to try to challenge MS / Sony head-on.

Alternatively, they do what they have done, making their own hyper-efficient and relatively cheap (for them) to make GPUs and a custom API that can drive it. Then they take a cut-down M1 Max and start putting them inside an Apple TV enclosure and watch Sony and Microsoft start questioning their life choices.

It seems incredibly obvious to me that Apple is coming for AAA gaming - you don't "accidentally" make a GPU that can run with a 3080 mobile, and that's probably part of the reason why companies like Epic are freaking out, because there is a significant danger that if Apple wanted to, they could Nokia the entire gaming industry.

You'd be surprised at how circular this argument is:

Open letter to Apple about gaming

http://www.fileplanet.com/fileblog/archives/2007/04/entry_254.shtml The FilePlanet editor-in-chief published an open letter to Apple about the state of their support for native gaming on the Mac. Found this over at the Mac Observer; the folks on their forums seem to think that any overt...

forums.macrumors.com

Are their traitors among us & Should Apple have bought EA Games

I've been reading diifferent Mav-Gaming forums, and I can'[t believe how many Mac user say they have X-Box's... Do they want to support M$, M$ is evil! A while back I read that Apple was thinking of buying EA. Nothing from this article seems to have come true, but I think there might be...

forums.macrumors.com

 

[jmho]

You'd be surprised at how circular this argument is:

Open letter to Apple about gaming

http://www.fileplanet.com/fileblog/archives/2007/04/entry_254.shtml The FilePlanet editor-in-chief published an open letter to Apple about the state of their support for native gaming on the Mac. Found this over at the Mac Observer; the folks on their forums seem to think that any overt...

forums.macrumors.com

I think it's very unlikely that any potential AAA gaming push will be lead by macOS, or that macs will become "gaming" devices, it's more that we'll just benefit from sharing the unified Apple hardware platform.

The only reason Windows gaming is so good now is because if you make a game for the Xbox you almost get the PC version almost for free. 10 years ago PC ports of console games were almost all terrible because porting was a huge effort.

It seems to me that with iOS's dominance in mobile gaming and Apple Silicon slowly eroding the distinction between mobile and desktop hardware, it would be difficult for Apple to not end up eventually being an incredibly attractive platform for AAA gaming in a few years even if they do nothing at all.

 

[diamond.g]

I think it's very unlikely that any potential AAA gaming push will be lead by macOS, or that macs will become "gaming" devices, it's more that we'll just benefit from sharing the unified Apple hardware platform.

The only reason Windows gaming is so good now is because if you make a game for the Xbox you almost get the PC version almost for free. 10 years ago PC ports of console games were almost all terrible because porting was a huge effort.

It seems to me that with iOS's dominance in mobile gaming and Apple Silicon slowly eroding the distinction between mobile and desktop hardware, it would be difficult for Apple to not end up eventually being an incredibly attractive platform for AAA gaming in a few years even if they do nothing at all.

Ports 10 years ago were "hard" because to get good performance from the console version you had to do crazy stuff since the hardware was different from the "standard" pc of the time. Apple is more or less in the same boat now. Aside from loot box games, expecting other AAA type games (think Last of Us, Detroit Become Human) to come to macOS because iOS has a huge market share seems like a good way to get disappointed. I guess we will see what Sony bring in terms of Mobile games by March 2022, maybe I'll have to eat my words, lol.

 

[jmho]

Ports 10 years ago were "hard" because to get good performance from the console version you had to do crazy stuff since the hardware was different from the "standard" pc of the time. Apple is more or less in the same boat now. Aside from loot box games, expecting other AAA type games (think Last of Us, Detroit Become Human) to come to macOS because iOS has a huge market share seems like a good way to get disappointed. I guess we will see what Sony bring in terms of Mobile games by March 2022, maybe I'll have to eat my words, lol.

Yes, but Apple Silicon is nowhere near as complicated to code for as something like the Playstation 3 was.

iOS / Metal development is simple and straightforward and in many ways easier than the PC because you're working with fixed hardware.

 

[diamond.g]

Yes, but Apple Silicon is nowhere near as complicated to code for as something like the Playstation 3 was.

iOS / Metal development is simple and straightforward and in many ways easier than the PC because you're working with fixed hardware.

Which would be super helpful things if Apple were willing to contract out exclusive (so 1st or 2nd party) games for the platform that are akin to stuff like what Quantic Dreams does (or Remedy). They could dig in on all the things that make Apple hardware special without having to worry about making sure they don't do something that they cannot replicate on PC/Console.
If there is an expectation that the game is multiplatform you probably won't ever see that level of "love". It doesn't happen now between the Xbox and Playstation so I see no reason to believe it would happen between the Mac and PC.

 

[TopToffee]

Apple can‘t do AAA gaming.

Again, how do you know this? Since they've never tried, and give all outward appearances of having no interest in doing so.

"I want to play AAA games on my Mac"

I'd like to play them on my toaster, but I can't do that either. So I didn't buy a toaster to play AAA games, since that's not what it's designed for.

 

[leslieg]

im so glad you put THEY in capitals, otherwise I would not have understood who you were talking about

 

[EntropyQ3]

I think it's very unlikely that any potential AAA gaming push will be lead by macOS, or that macs will become "gaming" devices, it's more that we'll just benefit from sharing the unified Apple hardware platform.

The only reason Windows gaming is so good now is because if you make a game for the Xbox you almost get the PC version almost for free. 10 years ago PC ports of console games were almost all terrible because porting was a huge effort.

It seems to me that with iOS's dominance in mobile gaming and Apple Silicon slowly eroding the distinction between mobile and desktop hardware, it would be difficult for Apple to not end up eventually being an incredibly attractive platform for AAA gaming in a few years even if they do nothing at all.

And even earlier, PC was the leading platform for games because of installed base, followed by some years where it was the leading development platform for games, so PC versions of AAA games (that sold more on consoles) came with the process.

The thing is, the balances shift over time. Anyone who projects ten years or more into the future might as well read tea leaves. Apple, in their own way, pushes the current equilibrium, primarily from the iOS side but actually not exclusively. The platform is growing. The same system competition from the Windows game market is gone. So - the pile of money money on the table is growing and there's little in terms of competition on the platform, and those are facts. We'll see how the market reacts in the upcoming years.

 

[diamond.g]

And even earlier, PC was the leading platform for games because of installed base, followed by some years where it was the leading development platform for games, so PC versions of AAA games (that sold more on consoles) came with the process.

The thing is, the balances shift over time. Anyone who projects ten years or more into the future might as well read tea leaves. Apple, in their own way, pushes the current equilibrium, primarily from the iOS side but actually not exclusively. The platform is growing. The same system competition from the Windows game market is gone. So - the pile of money money on the table is growing and there's little in terms of competition on the platform, and those are facts. We'll see how the market reacts in the upcoming years.

I hope you guys are right and iOS/macOS sees games like Detroit: Become Human or Uncharted or Last of Us. It hasn't happened yet, but we could still be surprised in the next ten years.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

You are correct, you are not understanding my question. For a games publisher to be able to get their game to work flawlessly on a computer system, they would need to have access to specific usually proprietary coding, coding that is never provide to other software programmers.

No, I understand your question and no PC game developer, especially related to cross platform AAA titles, does what you’re indicating anymore. There’s just no need as using public API’s is far easier for developers to support and provides sufficient performance. Even for consoles, using non-supported non-published methods is a quick way to reduce system stability.

Maybe in the past with severely underpowered systems that were expected to perform better (and where the systems were ONLY expected to do the one thing at a time) there may have been a need for direct coding to the metal. But, at this point, coding to the metal is not required.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

This has got to be performance art of some kind

It embarrasses Apple, you see. They read MacRumors daily and are like “OH YEAH?? WE’LL SHOW THAT ANONYMOUS INTERNET COMMENTER!! WE’LL BE ALLL OVER AAA GAMING!! THEY’LL SEE!”

There are actually folks that believe this.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

BG3 is a good example

I’d say it’s NOT a good example because Apple didn’t pay them to do it. It IS, though, a good example of the way things SHOULD work… publisher sees it as a market and, like any other developer, works to make it happen (with assistance from Apple provided by their developer account, $99 a year).

 

[Adamantoise]

The simple and most obvious issue here is that Apple doesn't want the Mac to be a gaming platform. It devalues what these devices stand for, productivity. Neither is there enough Mac users for it to be a platform AAA developers care for.

Apple Silicon is so new in any event that the majority of the 100m+ Mac owners are still on intel, it will be a decade before that substantially swings in the other direction and even then, maybe 10-15% are serious gamers. Not enough for developers to care for. And serious gamers have a PC, simple as that.

You have to know this is nonsense right? I mean, how does running software that entertains you "devaluing" a computer?

Does running Apple TV or Apple Music also devalue these new Macs?

Please walk me through the logic here, because I legit don't understand how someone can actually think this way.

 

[InuNacho]

I think a fair amount of people here are missing an important point.
Apple USED to have what we would now call AAA games released on Classic and early versions of OS X all the time. Games were released because the hardware supported the heavy lifting required by the games, in the form of expandable tower formats.

I used to play Quake on an old Performa, UT99 on my dad's then brand spanking new Sawtooth G4, Sim City 2000 on the ole' family LCII, and UT2004 on low on my Powerbook G4. Heck, I played all the Bioshocks, Left 4 Dead 2, and the Metro Series on my 2009 Mac Pro.

The cheapest expandable Mac now starts at $6k. Nobody is going to pay that to game.

The constantly changing OS, loss of 32-bit support, OpenGL depreciation for years and changing hardware architecture doesn't help either.

 

[pmiles]

You have to know this is nonsense right? I mean, how does running software that entertains you "devaluing" a computer?

Does running Apple TV or Apple Music also devalue these new Macs?

Please walk me through the logic here, because I legit don't understand how someone can actually think this way.

There you go... you've solved your own problem and it only took 5 pages of nonsense from you to finally get it...
You don't understand why people don't think the way you do.

Welcome to the real world... where reality is a bitch.

 

[diamond.g]

I’d say it’s NOT a good example because Apple didn’t pay them to do it. It IS, though, a good example of the way things SHOULD work… publisher sees it as a market and, like any other developer, works to make it happen (with assistance from Apple provided by their developer account, $99 a year).

I wonder how much Larian is paying Elverils to do the Mac (and probably iOS in the future) port of BG3. Patch 6 still hasn't dropped for M1 and I am wondering if FSR is the culprit.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

I wonder how much Larian is paying Elverils to do the Mac (and probably iOS in the future) port of BG3. Patch 6 still hasn't dropped for M1 and I am wondering if FSR is the culprit.

That’s another important part of the equation. If a developer has an IP they want a low risk way of doing it JUST to see if there’s a market, they could hire someone that’s good at porting. That way a developer doesn’t have to hire anyone directly while still having access to accomplished Mac developers. And, if it doesn’t work out, they can just cut support for it.

 

[varunsanthanam]

Nah,
it’s just you and many people here don’t know this is how many companies got into the gaming industry including Sony and Microsoft.

Nah, I’m gonna go with performance art.

might I remind you that your justification for this supposed market failure was, and I quote here directly:

”gaming on computers is a massive past time, so this can’t be ignored.”

Watching pornography on computers is also a massive *pass* time. Are you suggesting that apple should ship every mac with a bottle of lotion and a box of tissues?

as we’ve already established, AAA gaming-focused pc hardware represents a tiny fraction of annual pc hardware sales. the industry itself in flux as running games locally on bare metal may very well give way to streaming games on a vm. Microsoft is certainly betting on that happening.

But high end gaming is a niche market. Apple’s investment in Metal is already paying off. Its real customers are students, creative professionals, and engineers. With this latest round of notebooks, Apple is serving us better than ever.

If you prefer a toy computer with rainbow LEDs instead, that’s fine by me! Enjoy your purchase and I hope it serves you well!

But do not expect a company who’s entire brand is based on creating a limited product catalog that has only a few models but with with broad market appeal to cater to you individually. It ain’t gonna happen and I‘d be horrified if they started.