Apple CAN’T do AAA gaming [Merged Megathread]

[Irishman]

I used to "upgrade" iMacs each year, where I'd sell the previous years model and buy the newer version and usually only have to pay less than $1000 each year and in return I'd get the latest CPU, GPU, RAM, SSD, screen upgrades etc.

Upgrading my PC tends to be a domino effect where I'll want a new monitor so I go out and buy an LG OLED and suddenly find out that my 2080 doesn't support HDMI 2.1, so I guess I should buy a 3080 if I want 120hz, and now I see my CPU is bottlenecking it so I should probably pick up an Intel 12th gen, but now I need a new motherboard and RAM and cooler and hmm maybe my PSU isn't powerful enough.... and suddenly I've basically just built a brand new computer and selling the old PC parts is a nightmare compared to selling a used Mac.

That's not to say PCs aren't infinitely more upgradeable than Macs, but just that for more than adding more storage it's not always as plug and play or economical as it sounds.

Imma HUGE LG OLED fan like you. In fact, I’m jonesing for the new 42” C2 one to use as a monitor for when I get one of those new Apple Silicon Macs. The thing that’s been holding me back is the lack of HDMI 2.1 ports like you mentioned, so no VRR, yet.

However, I’ve never built my own PC (or Hackintosh, even, back when you could), so I’ve always been open to what BTO options have been available. I used to live on PC Part Picker back in the day, just to track prices. If you’re familiar with Boot Camp on the Mac side, you know that it lets you dual-boot between MacOS and Windows, just to play games that weren’t on the Mac, and I enjoyed that for a little over a year.

I wanted to kind of reinforce your points about how even PC gaming isn’t plug-and-play, and the domino effect can be an expensive and a head-scratching one.

The only plug-and-play gaming experience we have in our house is the PS5, even if I have to use a mouse and keyboard for shooter games.

 

[Irishman]

In general, most Mac models are not upgradeable.

Do you have any evidence for your claim?

 

[leman]

Do you have any evidence for your claim?

The number of upgradeable Mac models Apple was offering in the decade was a handful. Mac laptops have not been user-cerviceable since 2012 if I remember correctly. Some selected iMac models had user-accessible RAM but those are all discontinued. In general you might be able to upgrade some older Intel Macs if you were ok with tinkering, but your options were limited.

The only „upgradeability“ Mac Apple swlls today is the Mac Pro, and it’s days are counted as well.

 

[DarthVader!]

Do you have any evidence for your claim?

Its quite simple look at any review and google that details that all of the laptops show non-upgradeable storage and unified ram is on the SOC AFAIK.

Here's one link

macbook pro 13 M1 ssd upgrade - Apple Community

discussions.apple.com

M1 Mac SSD wear probably won't kill your machine - 9to5Mac

Concerns about excessive M1 Mac SSD wear may be exaggerated, suggests a piece today. Reports had earlier suggested that some machines ...

9to5mac.com

 

[DarthVader!]

Do you have any evidence for your claim?

Oh one more thing. Since you're disagreeing with me, as you're requesting I back up my claim (to which I provided some proof above).

What do you think is upgradeable? Serious question.

Short of whipping out a soldering iron, you cannot upgrade the display, keyboard, video, ram, processor, storage or battery on most of Macs. What in your mind constitutes an upgrade?

I believe maybe one imac model may have upgradable ram and the M1 Studio has a replaceable SSD but apple is making sure the consumer cannot upgrade it.
Mac Studio Storage Not User-Upgradeable Due to Software Block [Updated]

Of course there's the Mac Pro which has upgradeable components, which is why I said generally, as I was not implying literally every mac is non-upgradable.

 

[Irishman]

The number of upgradeable Mac models Apple was offering in the decade was a handful. Mac laptops have not been user-cerviceable since 2012 if I remember correctly. Some selected iMac models had user-accessible RAM but those are all discontinued. In general you might be able to upgrade some older Intel Macs if you were ok with tinkering, but your options were limited.

The only „upgradeability“ Mac Apple swlls today is the Mac Pro, and it’s days are counted as well.

True or false - the vast majority of Macs out there are Intel-based.

Also, I know that I only speak for myself, but I’ve never been a laptop fan. At all. The form factor always seemed to make too many compromises for me.

 

[leman]

True or false - the vast majority of Macs out there are Intel-based.

Also, I know that I only speak for myself, but I’ve never been a laptop fan. At all. The form factor always seemed to make too many compromises for me.

The vast majority of Macs out there are probably Intel based laptops with soldered RAM and SSD And the vast majority of Mac desktops out there are either Minis or iMacs, neither one of which has user-accessible internals. Unless of course you count „if you have the specialized tools and skills you might be able to take it apart while pipping that warranty seal“ as „upgradeable“.

 

[Irishman]

Its quite simple look at any review and google that details that all of the laptops show non-upgradeable storage and unified ram is on the SOC AFAIK.

Here's one link

macbook pro 13 M1 ssd upgrade - Apple Community

discussions.apple.com

View attachment 2002537

M1 Mac SSD wear probably won't kill your machine - 9to5Mac

Concerns about excessive M1 Mac SSD wear may be exaggerated, suggests a piece today. Reports had earlier suggested that some machines ...

9to5mac.com

View attachment 2002538

Thanks for the docs. I’m going to read them and get back to you afterward, but in the meantime, I’ll remind you of something that I reminded leman of earlier in this thread, that for now, in 2022, Apple still offers towers built around Intel CPUs and AMD GPUs. Those towers won’t stop working once Apple completes their transition to their own silicon. In fact, for those Mac users like me, it will become more attractive as a used option, because the prices should drop a lot.

I’ve personally frozen my OS to Mojave, so I can keep running 32-bit apps and games on my late 2012 iMac, so I’m cool with doing it again if need be.

And, the vast majority of Macs in the wild are Intel Macs, because the new Apple Silicon have only been on offer for the past 2 years.

To me, it’s all about perspective.

 

[Imhotep397]

Short of whipping out a soldering iron, you cannot upgrade the display, keyboard, video, ram, processor, storage or battery on most of Macs.

This is one of the other reasons Apple needs a Mac OS partner in the worse way.

Right to repair is something that doesn't seem to really be getting enforced all that well now, but it wouldn't surprise me if in a year or two Apple found itself embroiled in yet another costly with zero business value litigation trial over right to repair where the outcome isn't going to be all that beneficial to Apple or beneficial for customers with Apple fighting it tooth and nail.

If Apple had a valued and valuable MacOS partner that didn't build junk products, brought new customers to the table and built repairable, upgradable MacOS computers even with thermal, performance and footprint size compromises. Apple's marketshare would grow, litigation would be averted and everybody would be happy.

Hell, Apple could even likely skirt the EU mobile port regulations coming for mobile phones by having this other company release iOS powered mobile phones with the USBc ports allowing Apple to continue with their current long term connectivity strategy separately. Again Apple's marketshare would grow, litigation averted and everybody is happy.

 

[Irishman]

Oh one more thing. Since you're disagreeing with me, as you're requesting I back up my claim (to which I provided some proof above).

What do you think is upgradeable? Serious question.

Short of whipping out a soldering iron, you cannot upgrade the display, keyboard, video, ram, processor, storage or battery on most of Macs. What in your mind constitutes an upgrade?

I believe maybe one imac model may have upgradable ram and the M1 Studio has a replaceable SSD but apple is making sure the consumer cannot upgrade it.
Mac Studio Storage Not User-Upgradeable Due to Software Block [Updated]

Of course there's the Mac Pro which has upgradeable components, which is why I said generally, as I was not implying literally every mac is non-upgradable.

What’s upgradable varies depending on the form factor, and the span of time that’s being discussed. I’ve only owned Macs since the 90s, starting off with a Mac tower, and most recently with my late-2012 iMac. I decided long ago to avoid laptops, because they have fewer upgrade options.

As far as your last resort suggestion of whipping out a soldering iron, I have no training nor desire to, however I do like ifixit’s videos, and helped me swap out my iMac’s HD for an SSD. That was right before COVID.

Whether we’re talking Macs or PCs, tower form factors are more upgradable than laptops. I chose to go Mac back then because one of my my coworkers back then (who was a Windows guy himself) said that if you’re creative, then Macs were the way to go. For me then, it was desktop publishing, and over time, it’s become 3D modeling via Blender 3D.

 

[Irishman]

This is one of the other reasons Apple needs a Mac OS partner in the worse way.

Right to repair is something that doesn't seem to really be getting enforced all that well now, but it wouldn't surprise me if in a year or two Apple found itself embroiled in yet another costly with zero business value litigation trial over right to repair where the outcome isn't going to be all that beneficial to Apple or beneficial for customers with Apple fighting it tooth and nail.

If Apple had a valued and valuable MacOS partner that didn't build junk products, brought new customers to the table and built repairable, upgradable MacOS computers even with thermal, performance and footprint size compromises. Apple's marketshare would grow, litigation would be averted and everybody would be happy.

Hell, Apple could even likely skirt the EU mobile port regulations coming for mobile phones by having this other company release iOS powered mobile phones with the USBc ports allowing Apple to continue with their current long term connectivity strategy separately. Again Apple's marketshare would grow, litigation averted and everybody is happy.

I’m surprised that ifixit gave the Mac Studio a 6 of 10 in their repairability rating. That was more generous than I thought they would have been. https://www.ifixit.com/News/57898/mac-studio-teardown

 

[jav6454]

In an attempt to find some comity in this argument, you are both right.

During the Intel era, Macs were reasonably upgradable. I've owned four Mac minis, and I did upgrades to each of them. I replaced the hard drive and memory in the PPC unit, then both of those, along the CPU, in the first Intel model, then the memory again in a 2011 mini, and now I've added an eGPU and replaced the RAM in my 2018 Mac mini.

That's all in the past. With the move to Apple Silicon, the Mac is now much more a black box, hidden within untold wizardry and driven by fell magic. Apple isn't locking down the Mac to be mean, they are doing it because of the substantial benefits it provides. It gives all of the components of the SoC, such as the CPU and GPU, equal access to the high-speed on-package system memory. It reduces complexity by putting the SSD controller and other logic on-board. It significantly reduces latency because data doesn't need to be shuttled around from different components on the motherboard. That also means fewer points of failure that might require warranty service. This is the implementation of Apple's historical vertical integration strategy that Steve Jobs could have only dreamed of for the Mac.

There are real, tangible benefits to the consumer, and fits in with Apple's business model and engineering philosophy. The downside is that we can no longer replace various components, but system upgrades are already a niche market done by us nerds, and the benefits outweigh losing that capability, even for those of us who have done that in the past.

Macs started to be not so upgradeable when RAM started to be soldered in. Not sure when that happened, but it wasn't with the Apple Silicone transition.

 

[jav6454]

I don’t own a Mac Studio, Mac mini, or MacBook. I do own a late 2012 iMac, which I have upgraded the internal HD to an SSD (specifically a Samsung 2.5” EVO one). It was like buying a new Mac, honestly!

Please, provide some documentation for your assertion, because all you’ve done is state your opinion on the matter. Do you accept that there are more legitimate views than those who agree with you?

As I said earlier in this thread, I have bought with my own money an upgradable Mac tower.

Have you? How much experience with gaming on the Mac do you have?

Late 2012 iMacs were the last of those machines that could have two things upgraded. In your case, you did so for both.

Now, you want documentation, I did reference Apple Laptops and even the Mac mini. Also, let's take into account your iMac. Can you swap in a better GPU? Say going from GTX500s to a GTX700? (assuming 2012 parts and future GPUs). You can you add a second SSD? Can you replace the CPU on the logic board?

There is no such thing as a Mac Tower. It's the Mac Pro, and the Mac Pro is the only computer that Apple makes that allows full customization, but with a huge caveat. Only with certain components, not all are supported. Again, try using a different GPU than the ones allowed by Apple. It's not going to happen unless you write your own driver; like so many have done so here. Would I buy and game exclusively on a Mac Pro? No. Why waste so much cash on such a device when you could buy (or build) a more powerful and cheaper PC for gaming.

My gaming on the Mac has been based off the MacBook line, and mind you I played some modern titles with mixed results. I mainly game on a custom-built PC desktop which has full customization.

 

[jav6454]

I used to "upgrade" iMacs each year, where I'd sell the previous years model and buy the newer version and usually only have to pay less than $1000 each year and in return I'd get the latest CPU, GPU, RAM, SSD, screen upgrades etc.

Upgrading my PC tends to be a domino effect where I'll want a new monitor so I go out and buy an LG OLED and suddenly find out that my 2080 doesn't support HDMI 2.1, so I guess I should buy a 3080 if I want 120hz, and now I see my CPU is bottlenecking it so I should probably pick up an Intel 12th gen, but now I need a new motherboard and RAM and cooler and hmm maybe my PSU isn't powerful enough.... and suddenly I've basically just built a brand new computer and selling the old PC parts is a nightmare compared to selling a used Mac.

That's not to say PCs aren't infinitely more upgradeable than Macs, but just that for more than adding more storage it's not always as plug and play or economical as it sounds.

Well, in my case, I tend upgrade CPU & GPU. If the situation demands it. I usually do not upgrade storage as my setups for desktops usually is split in four drives: the main OS drive, Media/Data Drive, Gaming Drive and Recovery Drive.

Also, only once did I do a CPU upgrade. I usually upgrade GPUs and I haven't seen bottlenecks. Mind you I play at 2560x1440 and use 120Hz. I have upgrade GPUs at least 5 times and also increased RAM capacity due to some RAM hungry titles.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

Macs started to be not so upgradeable when RAM started to be soldered in. Not sure when that happened, but it wasn't with the Apple Silicone transition.

Likely the use of LPDDR. To be most power efficient, LPDDR is soldered to the MB. You’ll find that across the entire computing industry.

 

[jav6454]

Likely the use of LPDDR. To be most power efficient, LPDDR is soldered to the MB. You’ll find that across the entire computing industry.

Yes, that's true. But usually on very "slim" laptops in the industry. I rarely see it in the regular laptops.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

Yes, that's true. But usually on very "slim" laptops in the industry. I rarely see it in the regular laptops.

Usually, AND across the industry, too. All vendors, Apple, Dell, Lenovo, etc. know that the vast majority of folks never even consider upgrading as an option. So, you’ll even find PC laptops using DDR4 that have the memory soldered. It’s just not a feature that’s important to the broadest group of potential buyers.

EDIT: Checking some vendor pages. Even for the laptops that are available to upgrade, the RAM is “out of stock”. Probably just the chip shortage, but still, it’s funny. And, the DDR laptops I checked out indicated they didn’t have an upgrade option for their DDR4 memory but checking another site, they DO have two slots. Just something interesting to note.

 

[jav6454]

Usually, AND across the industry, too. All vendors, Apple, Dell, Lenovo, etc. know that the vast majority of folks never even consider upgrading as an option. So, you’ll even find PC laptops using DDR4 that have the memory soldered. It’s just not a feature that’s important to the broadest group of potential buyers.

EDIT: Checking some vendor pages. Even for the laptops that are available to upgrade, the RAM is “out of stock”. Probably just the chip shortage, but still, it’s funny. And, the DDR laptops I checked out indicated they didn’t have an upgrade option for their DDR4 memory but checking another site, they DO have two slots. Just something interesting to note.

Chip shortage is hitting everyone. Apple was smart to lock their capacity into a long term contract and not reduce their chip orders when the panini hit. That was one masterful supply chain move. Something car manufacturers stupidly missed.

 

[DarthVader!]

and most recently with my late-2012 iMac

It appears that you're basing your entire supposition that Macs are generally upgradeable on one specific model that is 10 years old. Yes, a decade ago, some Mac models were more upgradeable. two decades ago, there were even more macs that were upgradeable. Most conversations about repairability and upgradeability reference the here and now. As of 2022, the Apple line up is generally non-upgradeable.

Out of their entire line up, The Mac Pro model, which is wildly expensive, and is for the most part the last class of computers that Apple has yet to transition over to ARM. Even so, performance wise, the ARM based Macs that Apple has rolled out has challenged its performance.

The Mac Studio as I mentioned the storage is replaceable by apple but not upgradeable as they put a software block in place to prevent you the consumer from upgrading it.

And the iMac but even then it appears to be disappearing fast
Install memory in an iMac

 

[diamond.g]

so what is the next macOS ("major") game to be coming out?

 

[Imhotep397]

I’m surprised that ifixit gave the Mac Studio a 6 of 10 in their repairability rating.

It's really more of a "potential repairability" score as they didn't really address getting parts or actually replacing parts and having a working computer after. It seems like there may be firmware IDs for all removable parts and some kind of psuedo hardware DRM built in that prevents the computers from running without all of the factory installed parts.

 

[Ethosik]

This is essentially it. I've tried numerous times in these threads to discuss the topic, but it becomes a circular argument, if not a circular firing squad. To put it more charitably, these threads are support groups for folks who want more of their favorite games on the Mac, which is a sentiment I share, but my personal impact is limited beyond purchasing and playing Mac specific titles, hence supporting the companies who develop for the Mac.

Complaining about it on the MR forums may be cathartic; a way to blow off steam, but Apple isn't going to gobble up "AAA" gaming studios because a few nerds on the internet think they know how to run Apple's business better than the company executives.

As far as people who come here specifically to convert us Mac plebeians to the PC cause, see the light and change our ways, well that's a pointless endeavor, and rather sad. The most important thing to me is being able to run macOS, and that x86 ship sailed long ago. Teraflops and gigahertz are meaningless if you can't run your preferred operating system on that system.

People also think everything is on Windows when it’s not. I’m tired of having a PlayStation for two games - Spider-Man and Persona 5 Royal. Those aren’t on PC. Neither will the next God of War for a while. And Horizon Forbidden West is not on PC either.

So if Windows gets things slowly too, I don’t see how macs can change here.

 

[diamond.g]

People also think everything is on Windows when it’s not. I’m tired of having a PlayStation for two games - Spider-Man and Persona 5 Royal. Those aren’t on PC. Neither will the next God of War for a while. And Horizon Forbidden West is not on PC either.

So if Windows gets things slowly too, I don’t see how macs can change here.

To be fair you are talking about Sony made games (except Persona 5) so PC support kind of is an afterthought.

 

[Ethosik]

To be fair you are talking about Sony made games (except Persona 5) so PC support kind of is an afterthought.

Well the argument still applies. People just have it be Windows exclusive. Nothing wrong with Apple here, just like there is nothing wrong with Windows here. Some times they just don't want the game on Windows, and most of the time they don't want it on Mac. Apple can spend trillions but it won't matter.

Why aren't people complaining NON STOP that Windows doesn't have those games?

 

[DarthVader!]

Why aren't people complaining NON STOP that Windows doesn't have those games?

Because most gamers who use PCs understand the concept of exclusives. Sony either owns or has contracts for studios to produce a game strictly for Sony. The scales have tipped a bit in that Microsoft has more studios and the likelihood of locking out Sony is high.

Folks say there isn't enough market share, but there are millions of Macs out in the wild (AS + Intel) but AAA gaming on a Mac is on drip feed.

I'm not a gamer but I enjoy a few games here and there. I'm mostly a PC user who just bought a Mac, while I've owned macs in the past, we're talking like decade+ since then. As I did my research to determine whether I buy a mac or not. I kept hearing from random people in reddit, here and other places that the MBP is a fantastic machinee, except if gaming is important.

My initial experience owning a MBP bears this out. The state of gaming on the Mac is abysmal, when you compare the volume, type and quality of games available to PCs, and consoles. I don't believe it matters that millions of macs are out in the wild because those millions are not brand new Arm based Macs. The vast majority of Macs in the wild are Intel based with inadequate GPUs

More importantly is the reputation and belief that Macs are not for gaming. If consumers such as myself are hearing it constantly, I think studios who are writing the games are hearing it as well. If Apple wants Macs to have more games they need to change that narrative. I keep hearing people chatter that Apple is interested and gaming is important to them. They allude that Apple is working on improving the whole situation. Whether that's true or not, I don't know but as of 2022, gaming on Macs is rather poor.

I'm lucky because I have a desktop to game on, but if I wanted to game on my mac it appears that my only option is to use a streaming service.