Apple CAN’T do AAA gaming [Merged Megathread]

[diamond.g]

Why aren't people complaining NON STOP that Windows doesn't have those games?

People do complain. I suppose if Sony decided to get out of the hardware game they would go multiplatform with their games to get more sales, but as it stands right now exclusive games sell PlayStation hardware for them.

 

[Ethosik]

Because most gamers who use PCs understand the concept of exclusives. Sony either owns or has contracts for studios to produce a game strictly for Sony. The scales have tipped a bit in that Microsoft has more studios and the likelihood of locking out Sony is high.

So why don’t Mac users understand this? I’m making my game a windows exclusive. Nothing Apple could do would entice me to change that unless they get 80%+ marketshare over night.

 

[diamond.g]

So why don’t Mac users understand this? I’m making my game a windows exclusive. Nothing Apple could do would entice me to change that unless they get 80%+ marketshare over night.

I think the answer is it depends, right? If your game is using features and technologies that are unavailable on macOS we can understand the reluctance to port based on marketshare. But if you can just flip a switch and have a game working on the mac (as everyone seems to think you can do) why wouldn't you do so?

 

[DarthVader!]

But if you can just flip a switch

Is it as easy as flipping a switch? PC games use direct-x, Macs uses metal.

 

[Ethosik]

Is it as easy as flipping a switch? PC games use direct-x, Macs uses metal.

It’s not. Even with me using both MonoGame and unity. It’s still needs to be thoroughly tested. Just a quick 5 minute test I already saw a macos bug in one of my shaders. So yeah, not just a flip of a switch.

 

[Homy]

I guess that must have been what Feral thought when they decided to port Warhammer 3 to Mac now. They probably said "Forget profits! Mac gaming is doomed. Let's port a new game to Mac". That actually seems to have been their startegy since 1996, to bring games to the doomed Mac market and making tons of loss. Warhammer 3 may actually be their "Let's go out with a bang" game. 4A and Larian Studios must have thought the same thing when they worked with Apple's engineering team to port and optimize Metro Exodus and Baldur's Gate 3 to Mac, as shown last year at WWDC21.

No, I think I put my faith in developers like Feral, 4A and Larian and their own words, analysis and market insights than random doomsday "facts and truth" on MR forums. They've been in the business for 26 years and have seen and survived the transition from 68k to PPC to Intel to ARM. It's also funny that people don't rule out Linux but Mac when Feral's list of ported games to Mac is three times longer than Linux.

 

[Ethosik]

I guess that must have been what Feral thought when they decided to port Warhammer 3 to Mac now. They probably said "Forget profits! Mac gaming is doomed. Let's port a new game to Mac". That actually seems to have been their startegy since 1996, to bring games to the doomed Mac market and making tons of loss. Warhammer 3 may actually be their "Let's go out with a bang" game. 4A and Larian Studios must have thought the same thing when they worked with Apple's engineering team to port and optimize Metro Exodus and Baldur's Gate 3 to Mac, as shown last year at WWDC21.

No, I think I put my faith in developers like Feral, 4A and Larian and their own words, analysis and market insights than random doomsday "facts and truth" on MR forums. They've been in the business for 26 years and have seen and survived the transition from 68k to PPC to Intel to ARM. It's also funny that people don't rule out Linux but Mac when Feral's list of ported games to Mac is three times longer than Linux.

But that’s Feral’s business model. Microsoft, Sony, Ubisoft, Atlus, and many other gaming companies are not doing those ports themselves.

Different business models here.

 

[diamond.g]

It’s not. Even with me using both MonoGame and unity. It’s still needs to be thoroughly tested. Just a quick 5 minute test I already saw a macos bug in one of my shaders. So yeah, not just a flip of a switch.

That is interesting. I wonder if there is a way to write shader code once and have it work properly on multiple platforms. Or is the hardware so different that your HLSL has to be tailored to each IHV.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

So why don’t Mac users understand this? I’m making my game a windows exclusive. Nothing Apple could do would entice me to change that unless they get 80%+ marketshare over night.

Wishful thinking is VERY strong.

 

[Colstan]

No, I think I put my faith in developers like Feral, 4A and Larian and their own words, analysis and market insights than random doomsday "facts and truth" on MR forums. They've been in the business for 26 years and have seen and survived the transition from 68k to PPC to Intel to ARM. It's also funny that people don't rule out Linux but Mac when Feral's list of ported games to Mac is three times longer than Linux.

The one thing that is often overlooked in this whole discussion is how developers can profit from the Mac's limited market share. While that sounds counterintuitive, and is is probably the primary barrier to having more games on the Mac, it also means that select companies like Feral, Larian, and 4A can make a profit by selling to Apple's customers. The Mac platform is a smaller pie than for PCs, but these companies can take a larger overall share of that pie, since there are far fewer competitors.

I don't slavishly pick up games just because they have a Mac version, but I do take notice when a new game is announced, and therefore investigate it further. I purchased Metro Exodus after learning it had Mac support, I probably wouldn't have considered it otherwise, and I found it to be a great game. I was already interested in Baldur's Gate 3, but Larian gets free advertising when Apple features it in a presentation, which are watched by millions of people. I own numerous Feral titles because they specifically target Mac users with quality games. I would note that OwlCat dropped Linux support for Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous, but continue to support a Mac version, which means that they consider the Mac to be financially viable, but not so for the Tux crowd.

The Mac will never have the same marketshare as the PC, we all know that, but companies can make a profit by selling to Mac users, since they have fewer competitors. With Boot Camp going away, that provides a clean break, with Apple Silicon being the target going forward. Mac users are never going to get the same number of titles as PCs, but the Mac's market share is large enough for a select number of companies to make a profit from, which is expanding due to the increased performance that the M-series brings, as well as the overall gains that Apple has made at the expense of a contracting PC market.

 

[Lihp8270]

I guess that must have been what Feral thought when they decided to port Warhammer 3 to Mac now. They probably said "Forget profits! Mac gaming is doomed. Let's port a new game to Mac". That actually seems to have been their startegy since 1996, to bring games to the doomed Mac market and making tons of loss. Warhammer 3 may actually be their "Let's go out with a bang" game. 4A and Larian Studios must have thought the same thing when they worked with Apple's engineering team to port and optimize Metro Exodus and Baldur's Gate 3 to Mac, as shown last year at WWDC21.

No, I think I put my faith in developers like Feral, 4A and Larian and their own words, analysis and market insights than random doomsday "facts and truth" on MR forums. They've been in the business for 26 years and have seen and survived the transition from 68k to PPC to Intel to ARM. It's also funny that people don't rule out Linux but Mac when Feral's list of ported games to Mac is three times longer than Linux.

Linux isn’t a strong gaming platform either. If you’re not messing around getting single player games to work.

You’re locked out of most bit multiplayer games due to incompatible anti cheat.

 

[Homy]

The one thing that is often overlooked in this whole discussion is how developers can profit from the Mac's limited market share. While that sounds counterintuitive, and is is probably the primary barrier to having more games on the Mac, it also means that select companies like Feral, Larian, and 4A can make a profit by selling to Apple's customers. The Mac platform is a smaller pie than for PCs, but these companies can take a larger overall share of that pie, since there are far fewer competitors.

I don't slavishly pick up games just because they have a Mac version, but I do take notice when a new game is announced, and therefore investigate it further. I purchased Metro Exodus after learning it had Mac support, I probably wouldn't have considered it otherwise, and I found it to be a great game. I was already interested in Baldur's Gate 3, but Larian gets free advertising when Apple features it in a presentation, which are watched by millions of people. I own numerous Feral titles because they specifically target Mac users with quality games. I would note that OwlCat dropped Linux support for Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous, but continue to support a Mac version, which means that they consider the Mac to be financially viable, but not so for the Tux crowd.

The Mac will never have the same marketshare as the PC, we all know that, but companies can make a profit by selling to Mac users, since they have fewer competitors. With Boot Camp going away, that provides a clean break, with Apple Silicon being the target going forward. Mac users are never going to get the same number of titles as PCs, but the Mac's market share is large enough for a select number of companies to make a profit from, which is expanding due to the increased performance that the M-series brings, as well as the overall gains that Apple has made at the expense of a contracting PC market.

Well said!

 

[GrumpyCoder]

So why don’t Mac users understand this?

Ohh... it's time for my favorite quote from a Myst review. It makes me laugh every time I read it. 😂
Source: https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/is-myst-still-one-of-the-worst-games-ever

Myst was, of course, a game championed by the worst people who existed in the 1990s: Mac owners. Mac owners had a problem. They'd spent a vast amount of money on a machine that had about seven games available for it total, no right mouse button, and no eject button on the floppy drive. They'd been sold such a lemon, and such an expensive lemon, that there was nothing for it but to double-down and pretend it was by far the superior choice. "Well actually it's MUCH better for graphic design work," they'd say, having never done any graphic design work, nor ever intending to. ("And why should I need an eject button when I can drag this icon laboriously across the desktop and drop it on this other icon instead? Or more usually unfold a paperclip and frantically wedge it into this tiny hole on the front of the machine conveniently located where your PC wastes space with a button.") And they'd delude themselves and all those around them that the scant few games they could play were all absolute stone-cold classics. Thus Myst. The Macciest of all Mac games, a shiny veneer plastered across empty nothingness.

There is a lot of truth in it.

 

[droplink]

Because they have ten million other games to choose from??
EDIT: Ups, it was a comment to somethign said earlier in the thread.

 

[Homy]

It’s not. Even with me using both MonoGame and unity. It’s still needs to be thoroughly tested. Just a quick 5 minute test I already saw a macos bug in one of my shaders. So yeah, not just a flip of a switch.

Have you ever tried this?

Metal Developer Tools on Windows Offer New Gaming Opportunities

Game developers are now able to more easily develop games for Apple devices using Windows machines, thanks to a new set of Metal developer tools...

www.macrumors.com

 

[Ethosik]

That is interesting. I wonder if there is a way to write shader code once and have it work properly on multiple platforms. Or is the hardware so different that your HLSL has to be tailored to each IHV.

Possibly. But my main focus is on Windows. If it worked better it would be different. But 5 minutes in to a test I’m like “nope”. So I didn’t dig any deeper into the root cause or why it was so different.

 

[mi7chy]

Mac gaming doesn't have a bright future when the most vocal evangelists for pushing for developers to release games on the Mac are quickest to turn their back and ask for a refund on the same day Total War: Warhammer III is released. Do they expect developers to work for free or at a loss?

"given the state of the game and the fact that I currently have enough things to do I was considering refunding until CA brings out significant patches. So I don’t want to get over the Steam refund limit"

 

[AthenaNoctua]

Maybe. But that apple logo on a console should scare the daylights out of the current console leaders.

I view it similar to Nintendo vs sega with Sony looming in the shadows. It’s just a matter of apple putting the pieces it has together if they desire at all to do so.

Two words: Apple Pippin. Lasted less than a year, sold 42,000 units (according to Wikipedia). I somehow doubt Apple's going to be rushing into reentering the console market. That said, isn't the AppleTV a console (of sorts)...?

 

[JimmyjamesEU]

Mac gaming doesn't have a bright future when the most vocal evangelists for pushing for developers to release games on the Mac are quickest to turn their back and ask for a refund on the same day Total War: Warhammer III is released. Do they expect developers to work for free or at a loss?

"given the state of the game and the fact that I currently have enough things to do I was considering refunding until CA brings out significant patches. So I don’t want to get over the Steam refund limit"

This seems like an unnecessary attack on a forum member. It's not like they tried to use an unfair benchmark where the mac didn't have hardware acceleration turned on...or claim that Blender was as optimised for macOS as possible because they had "six months"...or try to disparage industry standard benchmarks while promoting clown benchmarks like stockfish or hashcat.

 

[mi7chy]

Linux isn’t a strong gaming platform either. If you’re not messing around getting single player games to work.

You’re locked out of most bit multiplayer games due to incompatible anti cheat.

Linux Wine/Proton is more evolved plus Valve, Easy and BattlEye Anti-Cheats are supported compared to Crossover/Parallels.

Linux
+ No Crossover subscription needed since Wine/Proton are free
+ No Parallels subscription needed
+ VAC, EAC and BattlEye anti-cheats supported
+ DirectX 11 and 12 translations supported
+ Native Vulkan support
+ Better game compatibility
+ Comparable and sometimes better frame rate and frame time performance than Windows

MacOS
- Needs Crossover subscription
- Needs Parallels subscription
- No current anti-cheat support AFAIK
- Only DirectX 11 translation but not DirectX 12
- Questionable Vulkan support with many games not working
- Limited game compatbility
- Lower frame rate performance and more jank

 

[JimmyjamesEU]

Linux Wine/Proton is more evolved plus Valve, Easy and BattlEye Anti-Cheats are supported compared to Crossover/Parallels.

Linux
+ No Crossover subscription needed since Wine/Proton are free
+ No Parallels subscription needed
+ VAC, EAC and BattlEye anti-cheats supported
+ DirectX 11 and 12 translations supported
+ Native Vulkan support
+ Better game compatibility
+ Comparable and sometimes better frame rate and frame time performance than Windows

MacOS
- Needs Crossover subscription
- Needs Parallels subscription
- No current anti-cheat support AFAIK
- Only DirectX 11 translation but not DirectX 12
- Questionable Vulkan support with many games not working
- Limited game compatbility
- Lower frame rate performance and more jank

EDIT:

I wrote something disagreeing with all this nonsense, but honestly what's the point? The above person is only interested in posting things which mislead and misdirect against the platforms this forum was created to discuss.

Take a few weeks off.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

EDIT:

I wrote something disagreeing with all this nonsense, but honestly what's the point? The above person is only interested in posting things which mislead and misdirect against the platforms this forum was created to discuss.

Take a few weeks off.

It’s just more recognition that game developers don’t have to focus on anything but Windows and consoles. For anything else, the users will just contort the system of choice to run a Windows executable.

 

[jav6454]

Is it as easy as flipping a switch? PC games use direct-x, Macs uses metal.

No... heck no. You have rewrite to make a PC game Mac compatible.

 

[Nugat Trailers]

so what is the next macOS ("major") game to be coming out?

Old World on Steam

Old World is a revolutionary new historical strategy game where you lead your dynasty over generations of rule against rival kings and queens. Wage massive wars, manage your court, and build a dynasty — or watch your empire crumble to dust. What legacy will you leave behind?

store.steampowered.com

Old World on May 19.

In fairness, Hooded Horse has quite a lot of 4X games being published by them coming up.

 

[diamond.g]

Old World on Steam

Old World is a revolutionary new historical strategy game where you lead your dynasty over generations of rule against rival kings and queens. Wage massive wars, manage your court, and build a dynasty — or watch your empire crumble to dust. What legacy will you leave behind?

store.steampowered.com

Old World on May 19.

In fairness, Hooded Horse has quite a lot of 4X games being published by them coming up.

I find it interesting it isn't listed on IGN's list of upcoming games.

Upcoming Mac Games - Release Dates, Trailers, Info and more - IGN

Check out this list of upcoming releases.

www.ign.com