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You didn't explain how you know it's evidence.

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And for observation you need to believe in the capacity of what you use to observe to produce some kind of truth. How do you know that it does?

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Both of you posters above are claiming that what you onserve with your senses and interprete with your brain is true.
How do you know that?



You child like response deserves a child like example. How do you know fire burns? Can skin coming in contact with a flame burn it? Can setting an object on fire burn it? Yes is the correct answer, we know this because we can test it, we can observe it as it happens and see the end results afterwards. It doesn't mean it will always burn. For example if we move our hand over a flame quick enough, we might not even feel the flame. We also know some objects might burn and some objects never will. From that same fire, we can also observe that it gives off heat and light. With certain tools, we can make even more observations. We are presented with a body of facts that is then known as evidence. That evidence may support of a theory or hypothesis or it may show that the initial theory or hypothesis was wrong and therefore we have to come up with a new one.

I don't think you are really this dumb as to what evidence actually means but playing this silly little game does make you come off childish. I know you have a point to get across so lets just have it instead of running around in circles asking what something is when the answer is obvious. If you have a issue with some evidence or lack there of of something specific, instead of playing childish 'but' games, you should address the core point you're trying to get out.

I could add to the ridiculousness of your post by asking you "how do you know that my post you're reading right now isn't just in your head"? After all what evidence do you have that it's not in your head? Your last statement falls more in the lines of what is reality through consciousness. That's fine if you want to get into that but truly deserves it's own topic.
 
Humans are born with certain predispostitions, but they have the ability to change. This is what makes us human. It is sad and sickining that you were brainwashed as a child in "science class" to limit yourself like that. The dogma you are trying to instill in people is the reason why I am glad there is a strong christian movement in the US. They might be extreme and I do not agree with a lot of things they promote, but they are still better than atheists trying to convince everyone they are predetermined animals, unable to change. Sometimes you have to fight fire with fire.
I am not quite sure what that has to do with this topic though? Being gay is not a decision or a path a person chooses to follow. Its not like changing your mind which newspaper to buy each day. It is something you are born with, much like straight people are born fancying the opposite sex. I am pretty sure I couldn't change my mind who I fancy because it is instinctive to me.

Having known many gay friends and a couple of family members go through the personal torment of admitting their homosexuality to the people who are close to them, I don't think any scientific or religious beliefs need to come into it. Often this torment is unnecessary because the people close to them are educated and understanding, while offering their full support.

People like Mr Cook claim they are proud to be gay and I think that is very admirable indeed. Its facing the truth and accepting who they are and enjoying what they have which is a freedom everybody should have. I have known of people who have gone most of their lives trying to deny it to themselves and living a lie, sometimes getting married hoping the feeling goes away. It doesn't and they just end up hiding their sadness which is awful IMO. You can't just turn off a natural urge like that and change yourself to a different sexuality. If that were true we would have people doing that because lets face it, its often an easier life being straight because you don't attract the ill informed bigotry and homophobia certain parts of the world seem proud to express.

If anybody is interested, please read a book by Gareth Thomas. He was a high profile rugby player here in the UK and came out shortly before the end of his career. In a sport where it is extremely masculine it was a very hard thing to do. He did it and the entire rugby world applauded him. It just goes to show how far we have come in terms of understanding it. :)
 
Both of you posters above are claiming that what you observe with your senses and interprete with your brain is true.
How do you know that?

Sure, I might be just a brain in a vat, but if so, why aren't I imagining myself doing something much more exciting and sensuous than posting on MacRumors?

Brain-in-a-Jar.png
 
And for observation you need to believe in the capacity of what you use to observe to produce some kind of truth. How do you know that it does?

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Both of you posters above are claiming that what you observe with your senses and interprete with your brain is true.
How do you know that?

And the ignore list welcomes yet another resident . . .
 
Sure, I might be just a brain in a vat, but if so, why aren't I imagining myself doing something much more exciting and sensuous than posting on MacRumors?

View attachment 511418


If it isn't true, then absolutely nothing can be known for certain and I might be talking to a cheese sandwich right now.

That better cheddar cheese. **** that processed "American" crap.
I think you are getting my point. :)

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I don't think you are really this dumb as to what evidence actually means but playing this silly little game does make you come off childish. I know you have a point to get across so lets just have it instead of running around in circles asking what something is when the answer is obvious. If you have a issue with some evidence or lack there of of something specific, instead of playing childish 'but' games, you should address the core point you're trying to get out.
You didn't adress my question.

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Your last statement falls more in the lines of what is reality through consciousness. That's fine if you want to get into that but truly deserves it's own topic.
This is were my question leads to.
If you claim that the concept of science and evidence answers fundamental philosophical or religious questions, then you should be prepared for it.

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I could add to the ridiculousness of your post by asking you "how do you know that my post you're reading right now isn't just in your head"?
It just is in your head. Everything that you claim is reality is a mere interpretation of sensory impulses by your brain. Your answer to my questions is simply calling them ridiculous. That is exactly the behaviour any religious fanatic shows, if you challenge their faith or what they believe is real. You are no different.

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And the ignore list welcomes yet another resident . . .
That's the spirit! :D
head-in-the-sand.gif
 
You child like response deserves a child like example. How do you know fire burns? Can skin coming in contact with a flame burn it? Can setting an object on fire burn it? Yes is the correct answer, we know this because we can test it, we can observe it as it happens and see the end results afterwards. It doesn't mean it will always burn. For example if we move our hand over a flame quick enough, we might not even feel the flame. We also know some objects might burn and some objects never will. From that same fire, we can also observe that it gives off heat and light. With certain tools, we can make even more observations. We are presented with a body of facts that is then known as evidence. That evidence may support of a theory or hypothesis or it may show that the initial theory or hypothesis was wrong and therefore we have to come up with a new one.

that's a simple observation and we're pretty damn confident every human has experienced the same thing.. sure, it's science and even the most religious of the religious will come to the same conclusion as you have.. like- you're not giving much of a case about why science is the end all be all.. especially in relation to the subject of religion=bad science=good.

here's one.. what happened before the big bang?
is that a question you think we should know the answer to?
or, since the answer could be "we'll probably never know", we should just disregard it as reality?

it sort of relates to "if a tree falls in the woods, does it make a sound?".. scientifically, we can prove this true.. the falling tree will make a sound.

but what happens if you've never observed the woods or seen a tree or heard a sound in the first place?

how do you know there are 3 dimensions? you can observe the 3 dimensions with the tools you were born with but does that somehow mean there isn't a 4th, 5th, etc dimension which is more relevant to the workings of the universe than up,down,left,right,front,back..

how do you know the universe is not a multiverse?

and the list goes on and on.. these are questions which are found through science.. i'm not just making crap up to be weird or difficult.

sure, we can scientifically gather that god and jesus and the bible etc are more-or-less fairy tales but i don't really get the glitch in thinking which says "since we can scientifically gather religion to be false, we should therefore put science in the void which religion previously occupied"
 
If you claim that the concept of science and evidence answers fundamental philosophical or religious questions, then you should be prepared for it.

I'm not sure anyone has claimed such a thing, and if they have, they are misguided.

It's the nature of "fundamental philosophical or religious questions" that they have no definitive answers. So your questions like "how do we know what we know?" "Are you sure we aren't just brains in a vat?" would fall into this category.

Science is about observable phenomena. It's about repeatable actions ending in replicable results. Even if we are brains in a vat, the virtual environment we live in has been programmed to return the same results every time as far as physical phenomena are concerned. Therefore, even if we don't know how we know, or whether what we experience through our senses are real or not, that doesn't excuse conflating religious / philosophical inquiry with scientific inquiry.

Please take a look back at my previous post (https://forums.macrumors.com/posts/20287478/), and do let me know if you can come up with an experiment to prove which view of homosexuality is correct.
 
Can you please explain this to me? You don't like homosexuals or you don't support them to come out of closet?

how about everyone keep their sexuality in their bedroom. What happened to professionalism?

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Fact, you dont need to be married to have kids.
Fact, you dont have to have kids if you get married.
Fact, neither is needed for the other.
Fact, marriage is not owned by any religion nor do you need religion to get married.

Your personal beliefs of for marriage and procreation are limited to you, not anyone else.

You are addressing the "what can" be done question, but not the "what ought" to be done question.
 
how about everyone keep their sexuality in their bedroom. What happened to professionalism?


That sounds great. I'm sure you'll have no problem not mentioning your wife or kids when talking in public. Also, no public talk of your anniversary, Valentine' Day, no pictures of the wife and kids on your desk at work and a whole bunch of other **** you do daily that telegraphs your sexuality.
 
That sounds great. I'm sure you'll have no problem not mentioning your wife or kids when talking in public. Also, no public talk of your anniversary, Valentine' Day, no pictures of the wife and kids on your desk at work and a whole bunch of other **** you do daily that telegraphs your sexuality.
I am straight and I don't do any of the above.
I don't know too many other people who do this either, but that might be a cultural thing.

A colleague once invited me to her gay wedding and I've only been invited to maybe 6 weddings in my life.
 
Talking about your girlfriend, wife, boyfriend or husband is pretty normal in the UK. I'm very proud of my wife and daughter and have their pictures on my desk. it's a normal thing to do. I certainly would expect someone to hide details of their life just because others feel uncomfortable with such standard details.
 
Talking about your girlfriend, wife, boyfriend or husband is pretty normal in the UK. I'm very proud of my wife and daughter and have their pictures on my desk. it's a normal thing to do. I certainly would expect someone to hide details of their life just because others feel uncomfortable with such standard details.

I actively think it's weird if people don't talk about their partners.
 
I am straight and I don't do any of the above.
I don't know too many other people who do this either, but that might be a cultural thing.

A colleague once invited me to her gay wedding and I've only been invited to maybe 6 weddings in my life.

Nodody ever asks you about your personal life?

A few examples of me forcing my sexuality upon people, all very recent:

We had new hardwood floors put in, while the guys were working on them we talked a bit and they asked us "ok, what's the deal with you two - are you friends or related (since I have a strange german/british accent)?"

We went to the bank to rearrange the accounts that are linked to our debit cards, the bank clerk assumed that we're dad (him! :p ) and son (me :cool: ), I had to laugh after she said it for the third or fourth time being so secure about her assumption... (which wasn't the safest assumption to make since I never did change my last name when we got married).

The company that my husband is contracting through invited us to join their Xmas (we're the type of bigoted non-"religionists" who laugh at "religion" but take advantage of "christian holidays" :D ..mmm gifts!) vacation to Mexico. Of course people will ask who I am.

I had a new tattoo done a few weeks ago, the Canadian Technical Death Metal Scene really only has enough material to fill the first hour or so of conversation, then the artist made me push my sexuality down his throat by asking me about my family/personal life. The tattoo turned out great!

These incidents all happened within the last 2 months - and I'm sure there were plenty more that I didn't even notice or think of. Of course I could have chosen not to be open and honest ("yeah he's my dad!", not sure how to avoid that in Mexico, especially after a few margaritas), but really why would I? If someone has an issue with it, I'll be happy to remove that person from my life and take my business somewhere else to avoid hurting the feelings of anyone. Although I haven't made any negative experiences here in Canada anyway. People are easy going and laid back about it, gay marriage has been established a decade ago and discussions like "but, but.. 'god'!!!" are irrelevant (also I'm still not allowed to marry a goat :( ).
 
I actively think it's weird if people don't talk about their partners.
It's a good example how some folks find things weird and others find it normal.

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Nodody ever asks you about your personal life?

A few examples of me forcing my sexuality upon people, all very recent:

We had new hardwood floors put in, while the guys were working on them we talked a bit and they asked us "ok, what's the deal with you two - are you friends or related (since I have a strange german/british accent)?"

We went to the bank to rearrange the accounts that are linked to our debit cards, the bank clerk assumed that we're dad (him! :p ) and son (me :cool: ), I had to laugh after she said it for the third or fourth time being so secure about her assumption... (which wasn't the safest assumption to make since I never did change my last name when we got married).

The company that my husband is contracting through invited us to join their Xmas (we're the type of bigoted non-"religionists" who laugh at "religion" but take advantage of "christian holidays" :D ..mmm gifts!) vacation to Mexico. Of course people will ask who I am.

I had a new tattoo done a few weeks ago, the Canadian Technical Death Metal Scene really only has enough material to fill the first hour or so of conversation, then the artist made me push my sexuality down his throat by asking me about my family/personal life. The tattoo turned out great!

These incidents all happened within the last 2 months - and I'm sure there were plenty more that I didn't even notice or think of. Of course I could have chosen not to be open and honest ("yeah he's my dad!", not sure how to avoid that in Mexico, especially after a few margaritas), but really why would I? If someone has an issue with it, I'll be happy to remove that person from my life and take my business somewhere else to avoid hurting the feelings of anyone. Although I haven't made any negative experiences here in Canada anyway. People are easy going and laid back about it, gay marriage has been established a decade ago and discussions like "but, but.. 'god'!!!" are irrelevant (also I'm still not allowed to marry a goat :( ).
I talked to a colleague today and asked her: "What does your husband work?"
She said:"I keep my professional and personal life separat."
I said:"Me, too." I like her. Smart woman. :)

I remember that I once told a woman that I am gay to keep her away from me.
That was 15 years ago. She didn't ask me, but I also wanted to see how someone would react.
She was never interested in me again. Good. :)
 
I talked to a colleague today and asked her: "What does your husband work?"
She said:"I keep my professional and personal life separat."
I said:"Me, too." I like her. Smart woman. :)

Seriously? What country do you live in?

I've lived in the US for all my adult life, and I've never heard an exchange like that. In my experience, when asked about what their spouses do, most people just answer. "Oh, he works for XYZ cooperation." "He's a lawyer." "She's in finance." etc.
 
You didn't adress my question.

I did, how you interpret that is on you.


This is were my question leads to.
If you claim that the concept of science and evidence answers fundamental philosophical or religious questions, then you should be prepared for it.

A couple of things here. I never once made that claim, in fact that very quote you have of me says that the philosophical side requires it's own topic. Another point, it really depends on the question itself. Some questions regarding religion can or will fall into the 'is it answerable through the scientific process?', while others fall into 'is it a philosophical question'. I specifically addressed the points about evidence in regards to science. Philosophical points fall more into the subjective side then it would evidence through science. They are fundamentally on opposite sides.


It just is in your head. Everything that you claim is reality is a mere interpretation of sensory impulses by your brain. Your answer to my questions is simply calling them ridiculous. That is exactly the behaviour any religious fanatic shows, if you challenge their faith or what they believe is real. You are no different.

Did you a specific question as to what area X falls into? Cause Im not seeing any specific question in that regard. I simply answered what do we know is evidence, which is fundamentally different then what is reality. Your replies are starting to sound like Jaden Smith talking about "How Can Mirrors Be Real If Our Eyes Aren't Real".
 
A couple of things here. I never once made that claim, in fact that very quote you have of me says that the philosophical side requires it's own topic. Another point, it really depends on the question itself. Some questions regarding religion can or will fall into the 'is it answerable through the scientific process?', while others fall into 'is it a philosophical question'. I specifically addressed the points about evidence in regards to science. Philosophical points fall more into the subjective side then it would evidence through science. They are fundamentally on opposite sides.
Not a bad answer. Fair enough.

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Your replies are starting to sound like Jaden Smith talking about "How Can Mirrors Be Real If Our Eyes Aren't Real".
Had to google Jaden Smith. Quoting this kid on this topic? This thread is getting increasingly bizare. :D

"The thing that people don't get is everything at his house is free. So I can get anything and everything at his house, so I'm going to be there for 20, 30 more years. He [Will Smith] says that as soon as I have a movie that's bigger than one of his movies I can get my own house." - Jaden Smith, Philosopher

:D



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Seriously? What country do you live in?
Germany.
 
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that's a simple observation and we're pretty damn confident every human has experienced the same thing.. sure, it's science and even the most religious of the religious will come to the same conclusion as you have.. like- you're not giving much of a case about why science is the end all be all.. especially in relation to the subject of religion=bad science=good.

here's one.. what happened before the big bang?
is that a question you think we should know the answer to?
or, since the answer could be "we'll probably never know", we should just disregard it as reality?

it sort of relates to "if a tree falls in the woods, does it make a sound?".. scientifically, we can prove this true.. the falling tree will make a sound.

but what happens if you've never observed the woods or seen a tree or heard a sound in the first place?

how do you know there are 3 dimensions? you can observe the 3 dimensions with the tools you were born with but does that somehow mean there isn't a 4th, 5th, etc dimension which is more relevant to the workings of the universe than up,down,left,right,front,back..

how do you know the universe is not a multiverse?

and the list goes on and on.. these are questions which are found through science.. i'm not just making crap up to be weird or difficult.



"What happened before the big bang" is at least at our current level of understanding and technological limits just not answerable right now. We may never know but not being able to know doesn't mean we disregard it either.

Science does not have and can't provide all the answers, no one with half a brain would accept that it can. Some of those questions you ask are just not knowable atm, some may never be. Schrödinger's cat paradox is similar to some. Some things we can't know til we make that observation.

The great thing about science, what we don't know today, we "could" know tomorrow.



sure, we can scientifically gather that god and jesus and the bible etc are more-or-less fairy tales but i don't really get the glitch in thinking which says "since we can scientifically gather religion to be false, we should therefore put science in the void which religion previously occupied"


Religion is subjective and in many ways, isn't a question for science. Religion is built on the foundation of faith, the very absence of evidence and it's not something that can be scientifically proven false. I never claimed that it could be either. Religion and "god" are two connected ideas but are also two separate ones as well. You don't need religion to believe in a god and you can build a religion around something other then a god. Science can address certain aspects of a particular belief that's based from a religious view. Such as "was there a global flood" or "the plagues of Egypt" and similar key points. Some points can never be answered simply because there is no possible way to scientifically test for them, such as Jesus's miracles or a talking burning bush. Short of going back in time and seeing first hand, running tests and more tests, it's not a answerable question. Science without a doubt has it's limits, just as religion does. They both have their place in society.
 
I talked to a colleague today and asked her: "What does your husband work?"
She said:"I keep my professional and personal life separat."
I said:"Me, too." I like her. Smart woman. :)

Why did you ask her in first place?

Oh wait, because...

I remember that I once told a woman that I am gay to keep her away from me.
That was 15 years ago. She didn't ask me, but I also wanted to see how someone would react.
She was never interested in me again. Good. :)

...you're a witty researcher dabbling in social experiments! Congratulations - had I know that you'd ignore any of the content of my post I would have saved myself the typing. :)

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That explains a few things...

I don't think you can generalize. I worked for some large companies in Germany and they were the absolute opposite of what "Meister" is describing. While I personally still perceive a large gap between the formal German approach and the more casual Canadian (which I prefer by far) or American way, those companies supported a lot of open interaction between employees and through all ranks. I've never come across a business where you did not know about the marital status of the guys you worked with/for, just because it was the stuff you talk about in coffee or (back then) cigarette breaks, xmas parties, etc. ..

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Now here's a bunch of words strung together that I never expected to see strung together.

HTH


;) (I know you'll write something funny)
 
Seriously??? Now we have people comparing gays to pedophiles. But the macrumors moderators are fine with that too. Classy.

I'll make this easy for you. Pedophiles victimize children. Gays are consenting adults who love each other.

Geez.

I take it you didn't read my post very well. Nobody compared the two.

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Basically, you are saying God failed. Flopped. Messed up. Made a boo-boo. Pulled a boner. Good goofed. OK, then. Your God is fallible, so you don't really subscribe to the Judaic notion of an infallible God. Maybe you're actually a closet pagan? Maybe it's time to come out and worship Zeus freely?

FYI, "Deus" is just a corruption of "Zeus"; so you have history on your side.

No, I'm not, but this is not the time for this discussion.
 
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