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...you're a witty researcher dabbling in social experiments! Congratulations - had I know that you'd ignore any of the content of my post I would have saved myself the typing. :)
I didn't ignore the rest your post.
You shared some stories and so did I. Thx for sharing :)
 
Splurge

OK so I drafted the splurge below about three days ago but refrained from posting because in an unrelated area I found myself flying off the handle. At the time I wasn't sure whether some of this topic had rubbed off in that other area, and if the opposite was true I didn't want any software-related anger misplaced here.

Anyway I slept on it a few times and I'm sure that the anger was totally software related so here's some of what I drafted. There was more, but I can't be bothered to edit it :)

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How "tolerant" …

Filtering out noise from a single person, in a group environment, is very rarely desirable, but that filtering can be a surprisingly effective way of filtering out noise of a particular type. A type that does not progress knowledge and understanding when responded to in that environment.

More than 'can' be … in cases such as this I believe that it's very likely to be effective – pleasantly effective – for those most deeply concerned (or 'emotionally drained' or whatever).

Sincerely, it's never nice to see, hear or read of someone drained in that way – whether self-inflicted or not, it's a milld form of torture.

Announcing the ignorance, as I did, is even less desirable because it has the potential to increase the torture of any number of readers. However I'm equally sincere about the surprise that first came, still comes, when I use the feature. It pleases me (e.g. I'm not tempted to workaround the ignore feature to read what someone might be saying behind my back, and I'm very touchy about that type of thing so I'm surprised to find myself not tempted). It should please the perceived offender because the feature vastly reduces the likelihood of me responding in an overtly dismissive or ill-mannered way. It should please other readers because it reduces the likelihood of them having to read responses from me that are sometimes intentionally harsh, pushy and provocative.

Whilst I go as quiet as possible (by reading as little as possible of posts that might outrage me), it's almost certain that at least one other person will continue to challenge the outrageous aspects without feeling pushed over an edge.

You don’t have to tolerate intolerance to be tolerant. …

+1

So for example, in reality, statements such as "I'm not going to sit/stand here and listen to this". And yes, I have taken that attitude at least once – most memorably, in a team meeting twenty-something years ago, when a mere nod of the head (in agreement) from a manager, in response to a colleague voicing a suggestion that the manager had privately carelessly dismissed when voiced by me, was enough for me to stand whilst he spoke then look at him as blankly as possible whilst silently walking out of the room as he tried to continue speaking. Given a few other things that had occurred, I had absolutely no desire to question his hypocrisy in the presence of the group. I knew from that moment that I could do far better for myself than continue to work with great colleagues, whilst mismanagement slowly but surely spoilt that greatness. Bluntly:

I didn't want to waste my time.​

Yeah ... sorry ... I get that. It's just very difficult to shrug off some of these comments. I don't know why I'm always surprised to see how incredibly stupid people can be. I know this section is designed specifically for these kinds of debates. I'll just continue to add to my ignore list I suppose.

An offender may be well-meaning, in intent, but in cases such as these I'm almost certain that no amount of rational debate from respondents will cause that person to realise the ill meaning in some of his or her expressions. Also, that person should realise that no amount of good intent can cause a belief that is perceived to be sick (e.g. the sick belief that homosexuality is by definition immoral) to be accepted by people, straight and gay and so on, people who can realise the sickness in what's written.

… I have a hard time understanding your post. What community do you mean?

Yeah my writing was clumsy but I wanted to get the thought rolling. At the end of that post I meant you being (presumably) in 'the straight community', me in 'the gay community'. But that wasn't the point of the post. I'll prefix this with an assurance that it's well-meaning: I wondered whether you might be one of the blissfully ignorant (happily unaware) straight people who might be unable to imagine what it's like to see a couple walk hand-in-hand without a care, and know (as I do) that such a simple pleasure –nothing sexual, just holding hands without a care – can never happen. This is another clumsily worded paragraph so (please) don't sieze upon it.

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Fast forward to Wednesday evening. Fireworks and stuff. Hmm, that was religion-related, wasn't it!

Peace.
 
Over 2,600 posts all commenting on a man coming out. I'm flabbergasted.

Can anyone summarise all this? I can't hope to read it.
 
Over 2,600 posts all commenting on a man coming out. I'm flabbergasted.

Can anyone summarise all this? I can't hope to read it.

Just read a page or two at random. You'll get the idea. Much of the arguments have been repetitive and circular.
 
Yeah my writing was clumsy but I wanted to get the thought rolling. At the end of that post I meant you being (presumably) in 'the straight community', me in 'the gay community'. But that wasn't the point of the post. I'll prefix this with an assurance that it's well-meaning: I wondered whether you might be one of the blissfully ignorant (happily unaware) straight people who might be unable to imagine what it's like to see a couple walk hand-in-hand without a care, and know (as I do) that such a simple pleasure –nothing sexual, just holding hands without a care – can never happen. This is another clumsily worded paragraph so (please) don't sieze upon it.

Peace.
Why do you think you can't hold hands? :)

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Ancient Indian art has always held a particular fascination for me.
Not that I don't appreciate the indian art of shoving genitals into eacht other ;) , but I might have to add that I posted those hand holding images because holding hands has nothing to do with homosexuality in most parts of the world. It's mostly americans (and some europeans) who are uptight about that.
 
Not that I don't appreciate the indian art of shoving genitals into eacht other ;) , but I might have to add that I posted those hand holding images because holding hands has nothing to do with homosexuality in most parts of the world. It's mostly americans (and some europeans) who are uptight about that.

Oh, I know. I held hands with Korean men many times. It's quite common world-wide.
 
Not that I don't appreciate the indian art of shoving genitals into eacht other ;) , but I might have to add that I posted those hand holding images because holding hands has nothing to do with homosexuality in most parts of the world. It's mostly americans (and some europeans) who are uptight about that.

Not that I don't find cultural differences on behavioral norms fascinating, but I think by deflecting / side-stepping grahamperrin's point about his inability to hold hands (that is, show simple affection) in public with his partner, you are proving his point about being a straight guy who is unable or unwilling to see things from a gay guy's perspective.
 
I don't think you can generalize. I worked for some large companies in Germany and they were the absolute opposite of what "Meister" is describing. While I personally still perceive a large gap between the formal German approach and the more casual Canadian (which I prefer by far) or American way, those companies supported a lot of open interaction between employees and through all ranks. I've never come across a business where you did not know about the marital status of the guys you worked with/for, just because it was the stuff you talk about in coffee or (back then) cigarette breaks, xmas parties, etc. ..

Yeah, sorry about that. I was joking, but I guess the humor didn't come through.

Glad to hear of your experiences with German companies, thanks.
 
Not that I don't find cultural differences on behavioral norms fascinating, but I think by deflecting / side-stepping grahamperrin's point about his inability to hold hands (that is, show simple affection) in public with his partner, you are proving his point about being a straight guy who is unable or unwilling to see things from a gay guy's perspective.
I doubt he is inable to hold hands with his partner, unless I am missing something here.
What's the point? :confused:
 
I doubt he is inable to hold hands with his partner, unless I am missing something here.
What's the point? :confused:

He is uncomfortable doing that in public, presumably because of social disapproval. Maybe that doesn't happen in Germany?
 
He is uncomfortable doing that in public, presumably because of social disapproval. Maybe that doesn't happen in Germany?
"Social disapproval" :D sounds like a mental disorder.
I am getting the impression you are beating around the bush.
 
"Social disapproval" :D sounds like a mental disorder.
I am getting the impression you are beating around the bush.

No, I'm getting the feeling you are being deliberately obtuse.

Have you really not read about people getting beaten up and even killed for being gay? There are parts of the world where people are afraid of showing affection for their gay partners because they fear for their life.
 
Have you really not read about people getting beaten up and even killed for being gay? There are parts of the world where people are afraid of showing affection for their gay partners because they fear for their life.
Like I wrote: Showing affection has nothing to do with ones sexual orientation! Thinking like that is small minded.
For someone to beat you up or kill you for being gay you have to tell them first.
I can honestly say that I have never heard of someone being physically assaulted for their sexual orientation where I live. (I am of course aware there are places like that)

I constantly see people showing affection in public. Often women with women, sometimes men with men and sometimes men with women. I always find it a bit akward because its private, but it's also none of my business.
 
I doubt he is inable to hold hands …

Yeah … as I said, it was a clumsily worded paragraph.

I should have emphasised that I can't do, without a care, what straight people can do without a care. It's a hangover from long ago prejudices. A deeply ingrained fear of what might happen as a result of simply holding someone's hand. Where I live is probably amongst the most 'tolerant' or positively gay-friendly places in the country, I have lived here for more than half my life, and logically I know that I should no longer have that particular fear, but the fear persists.

It's just a little damage, but it'll probably be with me until my dying days. It's the sort of thing that can happen as a result of ignorance and prejudice.

Folks, don't get me wrong – I'm not having a "watch your mouths in this topic" moment, neither (without paging back a few days) can I recall exactly what led me to the thought. It almost certainly was not any particular thing that was written or implied by Meister. I probably chose a reply to one of his posts as an opportunity to share a thought that had been brewing for years.

Yeah, I know, most straight people probably have "a little damage" of some sort so I don't imagine that gays are 'uniquely damaged' or anything like that. It's really difficult for me to express the holding-hands thing without this post becoming longer and longer (and clumsier?) …
 
Like I wrote: Showing affection has nothing to do with ones sexual orientation! Thinking like that is small minded.
For someone to beat you up or kill you for being gay you have to tell them first.
I can honestly say that I have never heard of someone being physically assaulted for their sexual orientation where I live. (I am of course aware there are places like that)

I constantly see people showing affection in public. Often women with women, sometimes men with men and sometimes men with women. I always find it a bit akward because its private, but it's also none of my business.

Good for you for not being small minded, but you really have no imagination.

Sure, just because you are holding hands with someone of the same sex doesn't mean you are gay. But some people will see that and assume you are gay, and react nastily, even violently. Because they are small-minded and bigoted, and unfortunately, people like that don't disappear just because you are more enlightened.

And some people have the misfortune to live in communities where such small-mindedness are prevalent, and so have to hide who they are. Now, could you at least try to imagine what it might be like to live under such circumstance?
 
It's just a little damage, but it'll probably be with me until my dying days. It's the sort of thing that can happen as a result of ignorance and prejudice.

Folks, don't get me wrong – I'm not having a "watch your mouths in this topic" moment, neither (without paging back a few days) can I recall exactly what led me to the thought. It almost certainly was not any particular thing that was written or implied by Meister. I probably chose a reply to one of his posts as an opportunity to share a thought that had been brewing for years.

Yeah, I know, most straight people probably have "a little damage" of some sort so I don't imagine that gays are 'uniquely damaged' or anything like that. It's really difficult for me to express the holding-hands thing without this post becoming longer and longer (and clumsier?) …
Life's a rather traumatizing experience. ;)

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Sure, just because you are holding hands with someone of the same sex doesn't mean you are gay. But some people will see that and assume you are gay, and react nastily, even violently. Because they are small-minded and bigoted, and unfortunately, people like that don't disappear just because you are more enlightened.
Time to move then.
 
Life's a rather traumatizing experience. ;)

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Time to move then.

*sigh* Straight, white, able-bodied men just don't experience the kind of trauma that can be inflicted by deeply ingrained social prejudices. Let me tell you, there's nothing "rather" about it. And not everyone can just pick up and move, and even if you do manage to move, the memory of that kind of rejection just doesn't go away.
 
… I constantly see people showing affection in public. Often women with women, sometimes men with men and sometimes men with women. I always find it a bit akward because its private, but it's also none of my business.

… and Meister, if you were to say that you feel greater awkwardness when it's two men (I don't suggest that you do – just theorising), I'd welcome that honesty. Still theorising: maybe it's a deeply ingrained potential awkwardness, a hangover from something long ago :)

From my perspective there's a great difference between (a) plain speaking with occasional humour(*) and with a readiness to recognise one's own peculiarities and (b) offensive plain speaking/writing that comes from misplaced righteousness.

It's the latter that led to me listing someone as ignored.

----

* Disclosure: I laughed out loud a few days ago when I found the US variant of "bum bandit" ("ass pirate", was it?) in writing because – without thinking about it too deeply at the time – I, the non-practicing bandit, immediately perceived the writing to be good-humoured use of a dodgy phrase. That sort of thing is very mild in comparison to the language that's used amongst my group of friends. If someone who didn't know me particularly well used the phrase in reality (not online) towards me, I might feel a little differently about it. And so on, and someone in earshot but out of sight might hear it said and the good humoured comment inadvertently causes someone to get "that little damage that might last lifelong". I feel I'm getting a bit too deep :) and like I said earlier, these are not 'watch your mouths' moments. Just food for thought.
 
*sigh* Straight, white, able-bodied men just don't experience the kind of trauma that can be inflicted by deeply ingrained social prejudices. Let me tell you, there's nothing "rather" about it. And not everyone can just pick up and move, and even if you do manage to move, the memory of that kind of rejection just doesn't go away.
By "rejection" I assume you mean "getting beaten up". I suggest regular running exercises.
This might sound like a joke, but it is a great asset in life to be able to run fast enough. This just reminded me to get back in shape again. ;)

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… and Meister, if you were to say that you feel greater awkwardness when it's two men (I don't suggest that you do – just theorising), I'd welcome that honesty.
Got nothing to do with who is showing affection. I think that private matters shouldn't always be publicly displayed and I think that is a healthy approach. We live in a free world however and you are free to hold, hug and kiss to you hearts content. :)
 
By "rejection" I assume you mean "getting beaten up". I suggest regular running exercises.
This might sound like a joke, but it is a great asset in life to be able to run fast enough. This just reminded me to get back in shape again. ;)

There you go again, joking and deflecting, and deliberately misunderstanding.

Talking to Christians who are genuinely convinced homosexuality is a sin is more rewarding than talking to you. At least they acknowledge the gravity of this issue.

For the record, I'm not gay, but I have a physical disability. Running fast is out of the question for me. But thanks for the suggestion.
 
Side note: if this part of the topic descends into a fit of other people bickering with Meister, nit-picking over his writing, I'll have achieved the opposite of what I intended when I continued (with a clumsy splurge) what I began clumsily three days ago.

Without nitpicking through umpteen past posts – I'll not do that – I can't recall anything amongst his posts that was outrageously contrary to … brace yourselves, landing gear down, on-topic in sight … support for equality.

Less outrage, please. More inrage. Reserve the outrage for the pirateholes.
 
There you go again, joking and deflecting, and deliberately misunderstanding.

Talking to Christians who are genuinely convinced homosexuality is a sin is more rewarding than talking to you. At least they acknowledge the gravity of this issue.

For the record, I'm not gay, but I have a physical disability. Running fast is out of the question for me. But thanks for the suggestion.
I am sorry to hear that. I wasn't joking. Being able to run fast is a great asset. If you are not able to run (I can't run fast anymore either), then having a quick way to get the **** away is the next best thing.
 
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