Apple Demands Microsoft Pull Laptop Hunter Ads

[polaris20]

If your competitor is incorrectly referencing one of your product's prices in order to make their own look more appealing, you have every right to protest as such action is illegal.

Just as Microsoft has a right to protest any of the blatant inaccuracies in their Get A Mac ads. Surely Microsoft doesn't have to put up with the lies. Like, um, err, well, uh....

True. And there are a lot blatant inaccuracies or over-exaggerations in the Get a Mac ads.

And which part in the MS ads are illegal? The 17" one? No. The 15" video editing one? Not exactly, though any average computer user knows you can upgrade the RAM for $50 to 4GB, but MS chose to leave that out.

 

[LagunaSol]

True. And there are a lot blatant inaccuracies or over-exaggerations in the Get a Mac ads.

Name one that Microsoft would have a solid, legitimate gripe about that would stand up in court if necessary.

Exaggerations are not illegal (i.e. "It costs $30,000 to fill your iPod with music.")

I've mentioned this in earlier threads, but the reason the Get A Mac ads work is because people (of which 90% use Windows) can relate to them because they are true.

And which part in the MS ads are illegal? The 17" one? No. The 15" video editing one? Not exactly, though any average computer user knows you can upgrade the RAM for $50 to 4GB, but MS chose to leave that out.

I don't know, I didn't hear this epic phone call described by the Microsoft COO.

 

[Soulstorm]

Have you ever even WATCHED those ads???? No, you have not or you'd know they cover a WIDE RANGE of topics, 99% of which have 100% to do with the Operating System, known as Windows and sold by Microsoft. Apple implies everything that makes a PC slow, buggy and attacked by cyber-thiefs is Microsoft's fault. And they would be right in the sense that PCs and Macs have the SAME BASIC HARDWARE now and so ANY attacks have EVERYTHING to do with Microsoft and Windows. In short, get your facts straight and stop trying to mislead people about what Apple has been doing.

Well, I will give you the right on this one, seems I hadn't watched all the ads. I did, and I see you are right. Therefore, I will choose to ignore the rest of your (slightly) aggressive style, since because of my post you clearly believe I am one of those fans that tend to wear eye patches and not see the faults of the company whose products they are buying.

So let me elaborate. I am not one of those fans. But allow me to not agree with the rest of your post. I wasn't angry at microsoft because of their ads attacking the Mac, but because of this:

I remember an ad displaying a woman saying ironically "I'm not cool enough to get a Mac". So what does that mean? That everyone who buys a mac is a show off? I am very far from this point, but I was really angry seeing the woman saying that. I remembered some years ago when people looked at me like I was some kind of alien when I was telling them that I have a Mac.

That's what the fuss is all about. Apple, for 2 decades now attacking the PC market, has never, EVER (directly or inderectly) offended in any way people who don't choose their products. That's why I am whining.

As for the Blu-Ray... A search on Google about Blu-Ray Macintosh comes up with many results. Toast relies on OS X for its Blu-Ray support, and 10.5.2 and above has Blu-Ray drivers, Blu-Ray playback is coming.

As for the Apple price... You seem very angry about it. Why? If they feel that's how much you must pay for the right to use their hardware, then go for it if you have the money. Have you ever been angry at another product that is just overpriced? I sure don't have. And consider this: You pay for the hardware one time. But their software is really cheap. Just look at professional products like Logic studio, and Final Cut studio. No one will give you so many bundled tools at that price. Use Logic, or FCS and see for yourself. Therefore, I will tell you again to Google first, get angry later.

And it also seems you are a gamer. If you aren't, then sorry, but anyway, that doesn't change anything to what I am about to say. I am not a gamer, and many others who buy Macs aren't. Although Macs tend to behave badly on games, the latest games don't, and that's not Apple's fault, it's the porting companies' fault, or no ones, since porting can be lossy sometimes. Believe me. I am a programmer and I know this for a fact.

Drivers... Please don't let me start about that one.

I, myself am programming for both Windows and OS X for quite some time. I can tell you for a fact that Apple has done much good in the industry. It contributes to OpenSource communities, while promoting Open Source standards. On the other hand, Microsoft is a bit left behind on this one.

Please, before answering, try to accept that Mac users are not fanatics. And please try to see that (at least from my point of view) Macs and PCs are targeting different people. Ever wondered why Apple does not give a decent upgradeable tower customizable CPU at 1000 euros? Because they don't want to. That's the PC area. They just give you some (overpriced but decent) alternatives. If you like them, go for it. If you don't then there is nothing to complain about.

All this without any implication of fanatism on your part whatsoever. Just trying to clarify my original post, and say something more.

 

[Mr. MacPhisto]

Please, before answering, try to accept that Mac users are not fanatics. And please try to see that (at least from my point of view) Macs and PCs are targeting different people. Ever wondered why Apple does not give a decent upgradeable tower customizable CPU at 1000 euros? Because they don't want to. That's the PC area. They just give you some (overpriced but decent) alternatives. If you like them, go for it. If you don't then there is nothing to complain about.

All this without any implication of fanatism on your part whatsoever. Just trying to clarify my original post, and say something more.

Not all Mac people are fanatics. Some are. I'm a recovering Mac person who was with Apple for six years until their products and pricing strategies made me return to Windows. And I must say that I think Windows 7 RC is better than OS X Leopard I was using.

I built a fast quad core with a 1080p 24" monitor for around $1000. Good parts, 8GB of memory, large hard drive. And that price includes the OEM copy of Vista I purchased before downloading Windows 7 a month later.

So price is a big point, especially in this economy. Apple knows it and that's why they did slightly lower their prices.

As for MS, I've found they are better when it comes to development for the OS. Yes, not involved as much in OpenSource stuff, but they give their developers better tools and the Windows API is easier to work in than Cocoa or Carbon.

Apple just tends to prefer to get customers that don't care about a variety of good options. The bulk of the machines they sell are hard to upgrade and the upgradeable machines are very expensive. I think the idea is to get you hooked into buying a new machine every three years or so at great profit to them. Their 17% profit margin from last year shows how much they gouge their customers and I must admit that I find their software update far worse than MS' ever was at this point. Love how they constantly want to force Safari on me and don't even both to ask me if I want an iTunes icon on my desktop whenever it updates.

Truth is that Apple isn't used to being attacked. They're used to poking at MS and MS thinking it is big enough to ignore them. They don't like MS using the price argument - and that's all that MS argues for.

As for that $700 laptop, my father has the same one that was featured on the most recent laptop hunters I saw. I've seen a few people want a comparo of that and an Apple:

An equivalent Mac would be the Macbook Pro 15.4" with 4GB and a 320 GB HDD. It does have a few extra features, a nicer case, etc. It has a faster processor, but it costs $1749 versus HP's $699.99. Both have long life batteries, though you can replace the HP battery.

For $1000 I can buy a HP 16" laptop that is thinner, lighter, and has a 1GB nVidia video card.

People can argue the Mercedes/BMW angle for Apple all they want, but the hardware is similar across the board and if the OS perception gap closes with Windows 7 then Apple is even less of a slam dunk at a high price. What they don't seem to get is that people on the low end outside of the netbooks actually like the idea of a 14" or 15" screen. You pay a premium for that and it ultimately means that Apple won't really expand beyond their current hold. They'll just keep on ripping off the suckers who're willing to give them cash and brainwashing them that they are somehow better for it.

 

[LagunaSol]

They'll just keep on ripping off the suckers who're willing to give them cash and brainwashing them that they are somehow better for it.

You had a semi level-headed, rational argument until your last sentence, which jumped you solidly into troll territory. And that's too bad.

I suppose I'm a brainwashed sucker if I buy, say, a Tag-Heuer instead of a Casio? And I imagine only a moron would pay $5 for a sandwich at the deli when he could easily make his own from home for a buck.

Put a MacBook Pro and your $700 HP in front of someone and tell them they can take either, absolutely free. They'll pick the MacBook Pro 99/100 times. Guaranteed. So there must be some premium value in there somewhere, no?

I can make the same "brainwashed sucker" argument regarding people who are willing to put up with Windows (at any price). In fact, a Windows user should steer clear of the "brainwashed" accusation entirely. Those who live in glass houses...

I too have built my own PCs in the past. I'm done with that garbage. A Mac is worth every extra penny to me. And apparently to millions of others as well.

 

[Eidorian]

Put a MacBook Pro and your $700 HP in front of someone and tell them they can take either, absolutely free. They'll pick the MacBook Pro 99/100 times. Guaranteed. So there must be some premium value in there somewhere, no?

Bad example.

If it's free, yes. If you're going to pay for it the HP is going out the door.

I too have built my own PCs in the past. I'm done with that garbage. A Mac is worth every extra penny to me. And apparently to millions of others as well.

Your milage may vary.

 

[Soulstorm]

Bad example. If it's free, yes. If you're going to pay for it the HP is going out the door.

I think he tried to say that since if they were free you would choose one over the other, then you must find something more to it. So, when talking about prices, you must consider quality.

Wether you feel this is the right value for money, it's up to you. For me, everything that's going on here is useless.

We will see who's best very soon, guys. Windows 7 and Snow Leopard are just around the corner. That's where everything will be judged.

 

[Eidorian]

I think he tried to say that since if they were free you would choose one over the other, then you must find something more to it. So, when talking about prices, you must consider quality.

I don't want this to go into a discussion about where Apple's $700 notebook. Ugh...

 

[LagunaSol]

If it's free, yes. If you're going to pay for it the HP is going out the door.

But why choose the Mac if they're exactly the same hardware-wise?

Because they're not. That's why.

Again, you (in general) fail to recognize the "premium" aspect of the product while bashing the premium pricing.

Your milage may vary.

Indeed. And obviously there is enough "I hate Windows hell and I'm not going to take it anymore!" sentiment out there to keep Apple profitable. And that's all that really matters, no?

I'd rather sell a hundred $1,800 MacBook Pros than a thousand $399 Dell laptops. And apparently Apple would too.

I'm not sure why people feel compelled to rage against free market dynamics.

 

[Eidorian]

But why choose the Mac if they're exactly the same hardware-wise?

Because they're not. That's why.

Again, you (in general) fail to recognize the "premium" aspect of the product while bashing the premium pricing.

Probably because it runs easily and legally runs OS X.

The closest thing we have down there is the refurbished 2.0 GHz 9400M G MacBook at $749. That's going to hurt if you a 15/17" screen.

Indeed. And obviously there is enough "I hate Windows hell and I'm not going to take it anymore!" sentiment out there to keep Apple profitable. And that's all that really matters, no?

I'd rather sell a hundred $1,800 MacBook Pros than a thousand $399 Dell laptops. And apparently Apple would too.

I'm not sure why people feel compelled to rage against free market dynamics.

Because they don't want to spend the money.

There are plenty of other OEM vendors with hardware options out there but sadly they're still not Macs.

I understand that I paid a premium to run OS X on my MacBook with its paltry GMA X3100. I hate how much I paid for it but I like using OS X and didn't want to deal with a hackbook at the time. I don't plan on buying a new machine because my Mac runs iTunes and Safari so well. I keep spending money on upgrades for my desktop though.

 

[LagunaSol]

Probably because it runs easily and legally runs OS X.

Oh please. Remove OS X from the equation entirely. Install Windows on both machines. Tell them the Mac will never be able to run OS X (which most of them have never heard of anyway). They will still choose the MacBook Pro over the HP almost every single time. Because it looks better and it feels better.

It's easy to dismiss the cost of top-level design when one is unfamiliar with what it takes.

Do I wish Macs were cheaper? Of course. I'd love a MacBook Pro for $500. But there's no way I'm spending my dough (and my time) on a crappy $700 HP using Windows. I have an HP Compaq nc6220 in front of me and there's no way I would have spent any of my own money on this thing. I spend more time with my computer than I spend with my wife, kids, car, etc. (sad, but the reality of life). You better believe I want the very best computing experience I can get. That extra $1,000 over 3 years is meaningless. And I'll recover much of that premium at resale anyway, making it even more meaningless.

YMMV.

 

[Eidorian]

Oh please. Remove OS X from the equation entirely. Install Windows on both machines. Tell them the Mac will never be able to run OS X (which most of them have never heard of anyway). They will still choose the MacBook Pro over the HP almost every single time. Because it looks better and it feels better.

It's easy to dismiss the cost of top-level design when one is unfamiliar with what it takes.

I'm quite surprised and impressed that you'd go this far.

I'd have to agree. I'd have to sit down and touch, lift, and poke the physical hardware to decide. Then the internal specifications come into play as well with me being heavily biased toward better video solutions.

I've played around with HP and Sony's notebooks in-store and found them to resist pressure on the case and other light manhandling. At the price you can't complain unless it's using yet another Intel GMA.

Do I wish Macs were cheaper? Of course. I'd love a MacBook Pro for $500. But there's no way I'm spending my dough (and my time) on a crappy $700 HP using Windows. I have an HP Compaq nc6220 in front of me and there's no way I would have spent any of my own money on this thing. I spend more time with my computer than I spend with my wife, kids, car, etc. (sad, but the reality of life). You better believe I want the very best computing experience I can get. That extra $1,000 over 3 years is meaningless. And I'll recover much of that premium at resale anyway, making it even more meaningless.

YMMV.

Tell me about it.

I don't expect to have any resale value left from my MacBook even with the RAM and hard drive upgrades I've made. It'll be under $400 by late 2010.

That's just off the perception of its value and not the hardware.

 

[LagunaSol]

I don't expect to have any resale value left from my MacBook even with the RAM and hard drive upgrades I've made. It'll be under $400 by late 2010.

I think you may be surprised. I just sold on eBay my 5-year-old Mac mini for over $200. I think I paid under $600 for it new. I wouldn't have been able to give a 5-year-old Mac-mini-comparable PC away. So the premium I paid became a wash at resale. Smart buy? Absolutely.

My friend bought a Daewoo because it was $5,000 less than an equivalent Accord. A few years later he got $1,500 in trade-in for that car. The Accord he would have spent $5,000 more on would have brought him over $10,000 (easily) in trade. So much for that $5,000 savings.

Sometimes you have to look beyond the numbers and specs.

 

[Eidorian]

I think you may be surprised. I just sold on eBay my 5-year-old Mac mini for over $200. I think I paid under $600 for it new. I wouldn't have been able to give a 5-year-old Mac-mini-comparable PC away. So the premium I paid became a wash at resale. Smart buy? Absolutely.

My friend bought a Daewoo because it was $5,000 less than an equivalent Accord. A few years later he got $1,500 in trade-in for that car. The Accord he would have spent $5,000 more on would have brought him over $10,000 (easily) in trade. So much for that $5,000 savings.

Sometimes you have to look beyond the numbers and specs.

I'll feel like I'm suckering someone though trying to sell it for THAT much money.

I hear resale value and 4-5 year ownership lengths get tossed around constantly here. I don't do enough on my MacBook to warrant new hardware. A netbook would do as much as it does.

 

[LagunaSol]

I'll feel like I'm suckering someone though trying to sell it for THAT much money.

Let the market bear what the market bears.

 

[Eidorian]

Let the market bear what the market bears.

Sadly that wouldn't be enough to keep me from feeling guilty.

 

[LagunaSol]

Sadly that wouldn't be enough to keep me from feeling guilty.

Personally, I'd feel more guilty about selling someone a machine running Windows. At any price.

 

[djellison]

But why choose the Mac if they're exactly the same hardware-wise?

Because you could flog the Mac on Ebay, buy the HP, and spend the left over cash on whatever you wanted

Let me say it again. Mac's are not the best purchase for everybody. They are not perfect. They are not ideal. They are not for all. No Mac made sense for my Dad. A £450 PC gives him all the performance he needs with a nice big screen. It'll last him for ages.

OMFG TEH WINDOWS SUX Apple Fanboy attitude is pathetic, ignorant, and frankly, embarrassing.

A lot of people use both. I do. They're both fine, thanks. Yet people here think I'm an idiot for using Windows at all. It's pure idiocy in this place sometimes.

 

[LagunaSol]

Mac's are not the best purchase for everybody. They are not perfect. They are not ideal.

I don't believe anyone here would claim that they are.

OMFG TEH WINDOWS SUX Apple Fanboy attitude is pathetic, ignorant, and frankly, embarrassing.

A lot of people use both. I do.

I use both as well. Mac since 1991. Windows since 1993. I could write an epic novel regarding the Windows issues I've had to deal with. My Mac issues would be more of a short story - illustrated, of course, to get the page count up.

That's just fact, not hyperbole.

There's nothing "ignorant" about many of our opinions that Windows sucks. Because, you see, we've actually used Windows. A lot. We speak from experience, not from some blind perspective based on hearsay and innuendo and flat out stupidity.

Which is far more than you can say for the "Mac sux!" crowd.

 

[polaris20]

Oh please. Remove OS X from the equation entirely. Install Windows on both machines. Tell them the Mac will never be able to run OS X (which most of them have never heard of anyway). They will still choose the MacBook Pro over the HP almost every single time. Because it looks better and it feels better.

It's easy to dismiss the cost of top-level design when one is unfamiliar with what it takes.

If you remove OS X completely and forever, and put it next to a Thinkpad, I would get the Thinkpad if it were cheaper. And they often are, depending on the series and the deals running.

I run a computer for the OS. Plain and simple. The shiny case doesn't get my work done, the OS does. Yes, right now that's mainly OS X, but it could also easily be Linux or Win7.

I like OS X enough that I'm willing to spend the extra money on the only computer it runs on (while being supported).

Because you could flog the Mac on Ebay, buy the HP, and spend the left over cash on whatever you wanted

Let me say it again. Mac's are not the best purchase for everybody. They are not perfect. They are not ideal. They are not for all. No Mac made sense for my Dad. A £450 PC gives him all the performance he needs with a nice big screen. It'll last him for ages.

OMFG TEH WINDOWS SUX Apple Fanboy attitude is pathetic, ignorant, and frankly, embarrassing.

A lot of people use both. I do. They're both fine, thanks. Yet people here think I'm an idiot for using Windows at all. It's pure idiocy in this place sometimes.

That's what I said earlier; the workflow works for some people, not all. I use both as well.

People need to stop treating any OS as a religion. That goes for both (or in the case of Linux especially) all three sides.

That's just fact, not hyperbole.

I'd say it's more personal anecdote, as it doesn't quite represent everyone.

 

[LagunaSol]

If you remove OS X completely and forever, and put it next to a Thinkpad, I would get the Thinkpad if it were cheaper.

Um, I said if you could have either for free. Choosing the Thinkpad "if it were cheaper" doesn't really say much.

That said, if I had to have a PC laptop, it would probably be a Thinkpad. Because there is some real build quality there. Which, coincidentally, results in it being "way overpriced" according to most folks' standards.

Yet you don't see people talking about Thinkpad owners being brainwashed sheep who buy overpriced crap. Funny how that works. Flash an Apple logo at some people and they lose all grip on rational thought as the rage flows through their veins.

 

[LagunaSol]

New anecdote: the neighbor across the street just called an hour ago. His Windows PC just got hit with a virus and was completely fraked up. He took it to a computer shop to have the virus purged and his data transferred to a new computer. In the process they fried his hard drive to a crisp. Goodbye photos and videos for the past 5+ years. He did not have a backup. I imagine the tears flowed freely in that house today.

He called to ask which Mac I recommend.

Another satisfied Microsoft customer.

But hey, he got a screaming good deal on that computer a couple of years ago.

Bet he wished he'd bought a Mac when I recommended it to him last time. Maybe they should use him on a Laptop Hunters commercial?

YMMV.

 

[Eidorian]

Backing up is still a pain under Windows to be honest. Time Machine and Spotlight are the biggest reasons I keep my important data under OS X.

They only mention Time Machine once though in the commercials. It's the best one.

 

[polaris20]

Um, I said if you could have either for free. Choosing the Thinkpad "if it were cheaper" doesn't really say much.

That said, if I had to have a PC laptop, it would probably be a Thinkpad. Because there is some real build quality there. Which, coincidentally, results in it being "way overpriced" according to most folks' standards.

Yet you don't see people talking about Thinkpad owners being brainwashed sheep who buy overpriced crap. Funny how that works. Flash an Apple logo at some people and they lose all grip on rational thought as the rage flows through their veins.

I wouldn't take an HP if it were given to me, even if it was the only laptop to choose from.

 

[Diseal3]

New anecdote: the neighbor across the street just called an hour ago. His Windows PC just got hit with a virus and was completely fraked up. He took it to a computer shop to have the virus purged and his data transferred to a new computer. In the process they fried his hard drive to a crisp. Goodbye photos and videos for the past 5+ years. He did not have a backup. I imagine the tears flowed freely in that house today.

He called to ask which Mac I recommend.

Another satisfied Microsoft customer.

But hey, he got a screaming good deal on that computer a couple of years ago.

Bet he wished he'd bought a Mac when I recommended it to him last time. Maybe they should use him on a Laptop Hunters commercial?

YMMV.

Well that's not MS fault now is it? Look at it this way, MS designed an operating system that can be used on virtually any build configuration as long as the manufacture of the part will write drivers for it. The operating system is secure out of the box and MS gives you the basic tools to help to keep that security. Now because windows is so flexable you the consumer get to enjoy it at cheap prices. However, so do millions of other people. Some of those other people are just out to cause you harm. Mac on the other hand because it's on hardware and running an OS that Apple has strict control of does not have as many people as windows, limiting the number of "bad" people that can interfere with your end-user experience. However, let's say apple DID open the OS to the free market. Who's saying Mac OS X users stand a chance? Those bad users will plague your experience just as well as windows over time. We already got a sneak peak with the virus plagues torrents of Ilife 09 since the popularity of Hackintosh.

Also, the backup was the fault of the PC guys NOT Microsoft. Microsoft dosent write the Virus. It's like you getting jumped by a person of X race/gender. Your going to get the impresstion that X race/gender is bad and avoid interacting with them and secluding yourself?

I wouldn't take an HP if it were given to me, even if it was the only laptop to choose from.

I sure as hell would. It's a free computer. An OS is just software. Software can be manipulated to the way you want. I personally have a Mac and Windows. I feel just as secure on my windows as I do on my mac.