Apple Made Me Buy a Windows HP Workstation

[Andres Cantu]

Can't believe how good some of the points in this thread are!

Apple should really take a look at this thread. It has all the answers they'll ever need to make better products.

 

[monkeybagel]

The reason Microsoft gives out "insider builds" is for quality assurance (AKA debugging) new releases. Of course they want to collect telemetry on problems, and not depend on the user to log into a website and make vague statements about something that "didn't work".

The Insider Builds are often "checked builds" - which means that run-time debugging and consistency checking are constantly on, slowing the system down. Microsoft isn't doing you a favor by giving you early access, you are doing Microsoft a favor by being part of a huge pool of beta testers.

It seems to be working fairly well.... Don't run insider builds if the telemetry bothers you.

I think running insider builds on machines that are used for that task is fine if you are aware that data is collected and you have a need to test insider builds. I do use them and have a need for them, but, I use them for their intended purpose which is not on a production machine. This is what Microsoft states these builds are for, so any data shared would not be considered "private" as the builds are used for testing and providing feedback.

I disagree about Microsoft "doing you a favor" as it provides insight on what needs to be supported and deployed when the product is released. It allows one to make informed decisions before the next build, in this case the "anniversary update" and how it is going to perform in your infrastructure, environment, and hardware. It is certainly a two way system. I have Microsoft hardware that has been collected over the years that were provided for beta testing. I can't recall a time before Windows Memphis that I was not using a pre-release build of Windows or Windows Server in a lab environment, with Windows Server 2016 being the current focus.
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I think running insider builds on machines that are used for that task is fine if you are aware that data is collected and you have a need to test insider builds. I do use them and have a need for them, but, I use them for their intended purpose which is not on a production machine. This is what Microsoft states these builds are for, so any data shared would not be considered "private" as the builds are used for testing and providing feedback.

I disagree about Microsoft "doing you a favor" as it provides insight on what needs to be supported and deployed when the product is released. It allows one to make informed decisions before the next build, in this case the "anniversary update" and how it is going to perform in your infrastructure, environment, and hardware. It is certainly a two way system. I have Microsoft hardware that has been collected over the years that were provided for beta testing. I can't recall a time before Windows Memphis that I was not using a pre-release build of Windows or Windows Server in a lab environment, with Windows Server 2016 being the current focus.

Alas, I have not seen Checked builds deployed though the Insider Build program. I don't have a need to run Checked builds. Perhaps if you were already running a checked build, it may update you to the current Checked beta, but I don't have any experience with that. The build string has never indicated a build I have received is a Checked build. Do you have evidence to the contrary?
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Can't believe how good some of the points in this thread are!

Apple should really take a look at this thread. It has all the answers they'll ever need to make better products.

Many people in the thread have this feeling, but Apple clearly does not. They are focused on the bigger fish. For the customers they market their products to, it is hard to dispute they are doing a good job.

 

[AidenShaw]

I disagree about Microsoft "doing you a favor" as it provides insight on what needs to be supported and deployed when the product is released. It allows one to make informed decisions before the next build, in this case the "anniversary update" and how it is going to perform in your infrastructure, environment, and hardware.

Valid point for the small shop.

Microsoft has a parallel "insider" program for large customers. Builds are less frequent, but closer to production. Even so, most of those customers have WSUS, and control which updates their users see. Only after IT has tested and qualified the final build will they let our WSUS let updates come through the firewall - and even then IT might blacklist certain updates. (Our IT department has its own "insider" program - an alternate WSUS makes updates available early to a select group of users. Only after any issues are sorted out does the main WSUS let the updates come through freely.)

WSUS = https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Server_Update_Services

 

[SoyCapitanSoyCapitan]

They would not disclose to you if they were using your data in a way that may be violating your privacy, like many companies would not.

Just view some of the slides that were leaked in the past two years as to what companies are more complicit to sharing private data.

Those slides have ZERO to do with Windows 10 if you are talking about those badly made Power Point presentations by the NSA that were mostly proposals and ideas, most of the stuff was and never has been implemented. Stuff that Apple and Microsoft are openly challenging. Stuff that their employees would not accept. You wouldn't have one person leaking badly made slides. You would have hundreds of very angry tech sector people leaking information instead.

This forum isn't for conspiracy theories so I'm not going to debate this further.

 

[AidenShaw]

You would have hundreds of very angry tech sector people leaking information instead.

That's so true! No tech company can police the use of USB thumbdrives - we'd have tons of leaks of high quality corporate Powerpoints.

In fact, I think that the ethics policies and training in place at my company would require me to not only refuse to comply with a manager's orders to collect information like that - but to also report my manager to the corporate ethics office. (One of the considerations in the ethics training is that "if you don't want to see what you're doing as a featured story on the evening news - most likely you shouldn't do it".)

 

[monkeybagel]

Those slides have ZERO to do with Windows 10 if you are talking about those badly made Power Point presentations by the NSA that were mostly proposals and ideas, most of the stuff was and never has been implemented. Stuff that Apple and Microsoft are openly challenging. Stuff that their employees would not accept. You wouldn't have one person leaking badly made slides. You would have hundreds of very angry tech sector people leaking information instead.

This forum isn't for conspiracy theories so I'm not going to debate this further.

I don't subscribe to conspiracy theories either. However, if you think the slides are false, you are certainly entitled to your opinion. The fact is, none of us here know for sure, and if we did, we could not say.

All I will say is what I have read that has been released by major media outlets, and while Windows 10 as you said is not specifically mentioned, there is information that has leaked that makes your point invalid about it being a "conspiracy theory."
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Valid point for the small shop.

Microsoft has a parallel "insider" program for large customers. Builds are less frequent, but closer to production. Even so, most of those customers have WSUS, and control which updates their users see. Only after IT has tested and qualified the final build will they let our WSUS let updates come through the firewall - and even then IT might blacklist certain updates. (Our IT department has its own "insider" program - an alternate WSUS makes updates available early to a select group of users. Only after any issues are sorted out does the main WSUS let the updates come through freely.)

WSUS = https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Server_Update_Services

I use WSUS very often. I am responsible for Lync, Exchange, Windows Server, and an array of other Microsoft products, as well as Apple devices. I think what you may be referring to is the Microsoft TAP program, where Microsoft is actively involved with the companies that early adopt prerelease software.

 

[AidenShaw]

I think what you may be referring to is the Microsoft TAP program, where Microsoft is actively involved with the companies that early adopt prerelease software.

We're in the TAP program as well, but I see that as more of a partner-developer program.

TAP gives you the raw builds, roughly weekly, to help 3rd party developers make sure that their products are ready for the next MS release.

IT does not need to test our entire MS eco-system against weekly builds. They use less frequent snapshots. Whether the source is TAP or not I don't know - but I know that on the engineering side I get frequent builds, and IT pushes much less frequent updates.

I think that it roughly corresponds to IT getting "release candidates" and official betas...

 

[SoyCapitanSoyCapitan]

That's so true! No tech company can police the use of USB thumbdrives - we'd have tons of leaks of high quality corporate Powerpoints.

In fact, I think that the ethics policies and training in place at my company would require me to not only refuse to comply with a manager's orders to collect information like that - but to also report my manager to the corporate ethics office. (One of the considerations in the ethics training is that "if you don't want to see what you're doing as a featured story on the evening news - most likely you shouldn't do it".)

Thanks for confirming what I was saying about anger among tech employees and the actions they would take.

 

[pat500000]

after wwdc, we'll find out who's still with apple and who packed up leave.

 

[SoyCapitanSoyCapitan]

All I will say is what I have read that has been released by major media outlets, and while Windows 10 as you said is not specifically mentioned, there is information that has leaked that .

And what did I say earlier about not believing in lucrative clickbait that is no longer lucrative?

 

[AidenShaw]

after wwdc, we'll find out who's still with apple and who packed up leave.

...and if we're lucky, Phil Schiller and his butt will be in the latter group.

"Innovation" is not about making a small, pretty computer that nobody asked for. The MP6,1 is a nice upgrade from the Mac Mini. For many people who wanted an upgraded (classic) Mac Pro, it's a disappointment.

 

[Hank Carter]

I am old and becoming a Luddite faster than I had hoped.
I agree with you that a real computer is still a necessity but that seems to imply that a 'real computer' must have the latest specifications. If Toy Story was developed 20 years ago, I can sure hope to do similarly demanding work on a four year old Mac.

I don't need to make a full length animated feature film and neither, I suspect, do most MR forum members. Prosumers already have access to the tech they need to do their work and they are a really small proportion of Apple's customer base.

A successful company needs have 'purpose' and an obsessive focus on the direction they wish to travel in. Apple have this in spades. They haven't forgotten about prosumers, they are moving towards more lucrative markets.

The only problem is that we are no longer producing projects as complex as Toy Story. Instead we are being asked to produce projects that are a magnitude more complex than Toy Story was.

If a competing company switches over to dual CPU / 20 core boxes with multiple Titan cards than I need to have the equivalent hardware to compete.

 

[AidenShaw]

If a competing company switches over to dual CPU / 20 core boxes with multiple Titan cards than I need to have the equivalent hardware to compete.

I went into the lab this morning to power up a new quad CPU / 72 core / 144 thread system with 1024 GiB of RAM and quad Titan X cards (12288 CUDA cores, 48 GiB VRAM). It will be in production by noon tomorrow (Monday).

Good luck competing against that with a 12 core system, with 64 GiB of supported RAM and a couple of Radeons.

(And as soon as tomorrows system comes online, I have another one (identical) to set up.)

 

[linuxcooldude]

If a competing company switches over to dual CPU / 20 core boxes with multiple Titan cards than I need to have the equivalent hardware to compete.

If you can produce the same or better product on less hardware at a lower cost is just as competitive. Its not the equipment you are using, but the end result that is the most important.

"Innovation" is not about making a small, pretty computer that nobody asked for. The MP6,1 is a nice upgrade from the Mac Mini. For many people who wanted an upgraded (classic) Mac Pro, it's a disappointment.

I don't believe innovation is about doing the same thing everyone else is doing or about asking for it.

 

[Hank Carter]

If you can produce the same or better product on less hardware at a lower cost is just as competitive. Its not the equipment you are using, but the end result that is the most important.

True and I have worked for several companies that worked smarter, not harder than the competition and beat or matched them.

But sooner or later it comes down to the simple fact that there are X amount of processing cycles in a second. If your competitor is operating at two or three times the speed you are at the same or lower cost you're not going to be in business for long.

Also time does not stand still and the amount of data we are forced to process is constantly increasing. What may have been adequate to process compressed or 2k RAW footage up to this point in time will choke on the data footprint of footage out of something like the Arri 65 (RAW).

I don't believe innovation is about doing the same thing everyone else is doing or about asking for it.

If you need to run a specific piece of software like DaVinci Resolve, Flame or Nuke then you really don't have much of an choice or too many other options aside from switching to a different platform that offers you the necessary increase in performance.

 

[rezwits]

I went into the lab this morning to power up a new quad CPU / 72 core / 144 thread system with 1024 GiB of RAM and quad Titan X cards (12288 CUDA cores, 48 GiB VRAM). It will be in production by noon tomorrow (Monday).

Good luck competing against that with a 12 core system, with 64 GiB of supported RAM and a couple of Radeons.

(And as soon as tomorrows system comes online, I have another one (identical) to set up.)

That's one hellava gaming rig you got there!! jk! That's about the best solitaire mainframe/supercomputer you can have right now. I miss #jokerTrump

update: Wow, not really tho, SuperMicro Motherboards are pretty sick!

 

[ForkHandles]

The only problem is that we are no longer producing projects as complex as Toy Story. Instead we are being asked to produce projects that are a magnitude more complex than Toy Story was.

If a competing company switches over to dual CPU / 20 core boxes with multiple Titan cards than I need to have the equivalent hardware to compete.

Absolutely agree. My original point is that Apple knows this, they have bigger fish to fry than users who need 20 core boxes. They know that the market already serves you chaps well and they are comfortable with seeing that migration to custom built super user computers.

The original op was encourage to find an alternative by Apple by their lack of innovation in he market.
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I went into the lab this morning to power up a new quad CPU / 72 core / 144 thread system with 1024 GiB of RAM and quad Titan X cards (12288 CUDA cores, 48 GiB VRAM). It will be in production by noon tomorrow (Monday).

Good luck competing against that with a 12 core system, with 64 GiB of supported RAM and a couple of Radeons.

(And as soon as tomorrows system comes online, I have another one (identical) to set up.)

What work do you do with a computer that needs such a specifications? It seems that the FBI are paying quite well for iPhone code breakers at the moment!

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

Absolutely agree. My original point is that Apple knows this, they have bigger fish to fry than users who need 20 core boxes. They know that the market already serves you chaps well and they are comfortable with seeing that migration to custom built super user computers.

I think you are quite right with regard to not caring about the financial impact. But, IMO, they should care about the marketing impact. When these 'taste makers' leave the mac, they will also stop recommending the platform and being aspirational to other users that follow the trends they set.

When apple was at death's door, these creatives were the core that saved apple, and they helped spread the halo effect. Creative's are hip and are aspirational for marketing. Who would you rather aspire to, an accountant counting beige boxes, or some dude making the next blockbuster movie?

Losing this core group is a mistake IMO, not for the financial reasons, but for their marketing pull in helping the brand be sheik. It's not sheik because of apple's cringe worthy ability to pull some band on stage after an announcement. It was sheik because creatives and techno elite thought having unix on the desktop in a clean way was cool. Once those two groups leave, what do you have left... even the accountants dont want to be the associated with that rind.

 

[8692574]

Add to that the fact that I don't trust Apple to keep building the Mac Pro - burned by Aperture and FCPX .

What's wrong with FCPX .... i simply love it!

 

[pat500000]

...and if we're lucky, Phil Schiller and his butt will be in the latter group.

"Innovation" is not about making a small, pretty computer that nobody asked for. The MP6,1 is a nice upgrade from the Mac Mini. For many people who wanted an upgraded (classic) Mac Pro, it's a disappointment.

To be honest, 6,1 is good fcpx...other than that....office app? lol.

 

[AllieNeko]

LOL, iPad Pro for what pros? Not video and film guys, that's for sure. I think Tim Cook and Phil Schiller need to take a week off, and spend the time touring some post houses, indie film offices, live theatre sound departments, etc. They'll get an earful. When it comes to these kind of customers, listening is something Apple execs should try.

Apple doesn't care about that market anymore...

 

[oldmacs]

Apple doesn't care about that market anymore...

I wish they did. They were far more interesting when they cared about that sort of thing.

 

[Britpack]

I joined this forum to reply to this thread. It struck such a chord. I'm a serious home music recorder (pro tools on a Mac Pro 2010). It all started when I wanted to get a new hard drive back up system and to start using a serious orchestra sample library, and thought why not go thunderbolt, it's the fastest thing around? OK, so need a new Mac. The old one won't take TB. Went through all the same frustration as described in this thread: a £5.5k Mac and then I need a chassis to host PCIE and buy extra ram but only to 64GB and get a slave mini and external ssds etc. Etc. Probably going to spend 8K. I repeat £8K. And then I thought, for that cash I should wait for the next iteration of the Mac Pro, so I'm not dropping that spend on a 3 year old Mac. But then started thinking, what if there is no Mac Pro, or it becomes even less compatible with the rest of the world?? I've spent to the most amount of money possible for a system that's dying on its arse. I can't even upgrade the damn thing to thnderbolt 3 when that arrives alongside USB-C which would at least start to bring computing worlds together.

I get why Apple are going where they are going, but I also think the investment in a professional Mac Pro platform has a huge halo effect on the community, which others have mentioned. It might even be a loss leader, but it supports a broad Apple ecosystem that so many have bought into. You take one part of that system away and the rest eats itself.

Of course there was an answer that despite all my misgivings about a new Mac investment, my subconscious, was keeping from me. Buy a PC.

There just doesn't seem to be any other choice. Investing that much in an outdated system/platform that cannot be upgraded and stands a very good chance of being defunct over the next few years is just not tenable.

So what's happened to PCs over the last 10 years?

 

[SoyCapitanSoyCapitan]

I went into the lab this morning to power up a new quad CPU / 72 core / 144 thread system with 1024 GiB of RAM and quad Titan X cards (12288 CUDA cores, 48 GiB VRAM). It will be in production by noon tomorrow (Monday).

Good luck competing against that with a 12 core system, with 64 GiB of supported RAM and a couple of Radeons.

(And as soon as tomorrows system comes online, I have another one (identical) to set up.)

Sickkkk. Are you going to use Nvidia Grid virtualisation to let users tap into that remotely?

 

[AllieNeko]

I wish they did. They were far more interesting when they cared about that sort of thing.

Interesting to who? Apple has gone to where the money is - consumers. It's a business decision. That simple.