It's to point out the scalability on the other side of the aisle.
Needing more power than the entry level box doesn't mean that you have to disrupt your workflow or change your software - now that would be asinine.
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Apple Made Me Buy a Windows HP Workstation
- Thread starter Mark Holmes
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Needing more power than the entry level box doesn't mean that you have to disrupt your workflow or change your software - now that would be asinine.
I think people take the "Pro" suffix too literal. Yes it used to mean this is for regular people, this is for professionals, but anymore it means this is the standard model and here is your direct higher-tier upgrade. Yes people who deal with photoshop and Logic Pro would benefit from the Pro models, but when it comes to video editing, they do fine with 1080p but 4K is going to stutter as the processor support just isn't there. 4K is some heavy stuff and if Apple wants to keep up with it they are going to need some better GPUs and upgraded CPUs.
And that scalability has never been part of the Mac platform, even at their most diffuse. So complaining about it now is a random critique.
I have one of the 2013 Mac Pros myself, but I upgraded it from the base config. to 64GB using 3rd. party RAM, purchased off eBay. That made it MUCH cheaper than just buying it with Apple's overpriced memory.
Still, in 2016, you're correct. It just doesn't add up as a great value anymore. (I think it was a pretty good value in the beginning of 2014 when I got mine.)
As far as upgrades go, I guess we still just don't know for sure? The video board in these is removable, but it's certainly a non-standard part made just for the machine. There's no reason someone couldn't manufacture upgraded cards for it (OWC perhaps?) -- but not sure if the demand is out there to do it.
Still, in 2016, you're correct. It just doesn't add up as a great value anymore. (I think it was a pretty good value in the beginning of 2014 when I got mine.)
As far as upgrades go, I guess we still just don't know for sure? The video board in these is removable, but it's certainly a non-standard part made just for the machine. There's no reason someone couldn't manufacture upgraded cards for it (OWC perhaps?) -- but not sure if the demand is out there to do it.
So, yep, that is exactly what happened. I wanted to buy a Mac Pro for my 4k editing needs. I nursed my 2009 Mac Pro 4,1 for 7 years, upgrading the RAM, the video card, constantly changing out hard drives as my needs dictated, loving the configurability and reliability of that machine.
But it was choking on the 4k footage I'm editing now, the bottleneck was memory and processor, and the only solution was to replace it with something faster, that could be upgraded over the years as I did with the classic Mac Pro.
So I shopped the Mac Pro, configured it to what I needed, and ended up with a decent system: the 3.5 GHZ six core, 64GB of RAM, 256 Flash Drive, and the dual D700 GPUs. That came to $5,799.00. Really, Apple? For a machine that hasn't been updated since 2013?!?! Add to that the fact that I don't trust Apple to keep building the Mac Pro - burned by Aperture and FCPX - and the fact that this machine will never be able to be updated over the coming years the way I did with the 2009 Mac Pro.
So I found myself researching HP workstations.
A couple days research later, I had my system. The HP Z640 Workstation. 3.5 GHZ 6 core Xeon, 256GB PCI Flash Drive, adding an AMD 390x graphics card and 64GB of RAM. With the additional memory and graphics card, it came to just over $3,000.00
Apple, I think, IMHO, is moving on from the professional market. It just doesn't make sense otherwise. Killing off the professional software, building "pro" machines that don't meet pro needs, not consistently updating the "pro" machines they do build... you get the idea.
Makes me sad, as I've been relying on Apple for professional needs for many years. But I believe the ethos of the company has changed... time to move on.
[doublepost=1461876080][/doublepost]Oh, i will admit, I'm keeping the old Mac Pro as well. Still perfectly suitable for photo editing and personal use.. Just wish Apple could come to their senses and build a real replacement for the Mac Pro.
The problem with 2013 model is lack of longevity. This is where cMP stands out... You could upgrade almost anything with cMP.
If apple gave us the ability to upgrade then 2013 would have justification to sell at current price. I wish 3rd party companies could make their version internal parts like motherboard and make it upgradeability like gpu ...
If apple gave us the ability to upgrade then 2013 would have justification to sell at current price. I wish 3rd party companies could make their version internal parts like motherboard and make it upgradeability like gpu ...
Remember, the GPU EFI & BIOS on 6,1 reside in the machine's boot rom.
Apple never planned any GPU future for the thing.
Having the PCIE SSD running through one of the GPUs adds to the headaches.
Apple never planned any GPU future for the thing.
Having the PCIE SSD running through one of the GPUs adds to the headaches.
I don't disagree but the signs point to a macbook update (mba or rmbp). I would love to be wrong but I'm sure they will igore the mini,imac and Mac pro. Will they even wake up an upgrade the 802.11N airport express they are selling.
The nMP 6,1 is the biggest joke from the Apple techlabs! :/
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The move to Intel processors in 2006 gave Apple the leverage it needs to make some very nice workstations. They were very innovative with the Mac Pro 1,1 introduction, just as they were with the G5. The G5 was liquid cooled - a far cry to what they would be willing to introduce today. Apple could make yet another revolutionary workstation if they desired - a highly upgradable Mac Pro tower with extreme upgadability. Look at how serviceable to previous Mac Pro was. If they don't re-enter this market soon, the software options for professionals will start drying up and there will be little incentive to keep this market going. But I think it's clear that there is currently pent-up demand for such a machine. They are going to have to do what they did with the G4 Cube and kill off the 6,1 early and make a true workstation for the people that want to use OS X and have professional needs.
I agree that they are heavily focusing on macbook series...and correct me if i'm wrong but didn't Tim wanted mobility as Apple's focus?
About two years too late for that option.
That depends. When they first released it, i saw some people doing FCP X plugin test..and I was actually impressed.
But for other purposes...sure i agree with u.
You had it in this thread. See here: #73
People who are technically competent get lots of people coming up to them asking for advice. They buy for their family. Recommend to their friends. They end up being IT for everyone around them. Those people may affect 20-30 people's purchases. That's big leverage for an 'average' power user. Then you get people like me, who work at firms, and influence bigger purchasing decisions, and that trickles down many times more.
I had an iPod before any teenagers did. Same with the iPhone. Day 1. After showing them to some kids in the family, it was 'way cool' and they went on evangelizing. But it all starts from the techno nerds, power users, creative professionals.
The kids are tech support for the grandparents...
So good to see this thread has begun such an active conversation. I also shared the thread in an email directly to Tim Cook. I know the chances of him ever reading it are infinitesimal, but it is worth it to me to try and grab their attention. I would still like to see Apple turn from this path they're on, ignoring their creative professionals, before they lose them for good.
Apple could do three things that would get their attention without much effort or expenditure on their part at all.
1) Kill off the New Mac Pro (6,1) or perhaps rebrand it as a Mac Mini Pro or the like.
2) Release an update to the original Mac Pro. Keep the old enclosure, or slightly update it, but put the best internals available in it.
3) Reinstate support for some of the professional software they've abandoned. A surprise announcement of Apple Aperture 4.0 at WWDC, for example. It could be announced with great fanfare, including it as a "renewed commitment to creative professionals" or the like.
I know, all very unlikely. But it sure would win a lot of the creative professionals back. It's going to take some kind of very definitive and public gesture to do that now...
And a little humility from an Apple that seems to have become excessively arrogant would be refreshing, that's for sure.
Apple could do three things that would get their attention without much effort or expenditure on their part at all.
1) Kill off the New Mac Pro (6,1) or perhaps rebrand it as a Mac Mini Pro or the like.
2) Release an update to the original Mac Pro. Keep the old enclosure, or slightly update it, but put the best internals available in it.
3) Reinstate support for some of the professional software they've abandoned. A surprise announcement of Apple Aperture 4.0 at WWDC, for example. It could be announced with great fanfare, including it as a "renewed commitment to creative professionals" or the like.
I know, all very unlikely. But it sure would win a lot of the creative professionals back. It's going to take some kind of very definitive and public gesture to do that now...
And a little humility from an Apple that seems to have become excessively arrogant would be refreshing, that's for sure.
The plural of anecdotes is not data, and all that...
Otherwise my experience cancels out his, I guess, and we exist in some weird limbo?
Actual data. Actual facts. That's what I was asking about.
Yeah, I don't know if there are any published surveys or polls about this topic, specifically? (EG. Did you purchase your latest computer/phone/tablet based on a creative professional owning it first and recommending it to you?)
I've worked in I.T. for over 20 years and while not on the creative side as much as the support/networking/server side -- I'm still considered a "pro" in the field. I'd have to say that especially in recent years, I'm OFTEN asked for recommendations on purchases -- but there's a huge disconnect between what I like/want and what I know is best for others.
So for example? While I might find Apple's insistence on non-upgradable hardware frustrating, and I might think Apple has largely abandoned the "power user" or "creative pro" -- I'd still probably recommend a Mac to a lot of people. In their cases, I'm thinking about such things as which OS will give them less hassles with spyware/malware and which computer makes it easiest to use the peripherals they'll likely try to plug into it (a USB printer or digital camera). I'm also thinking about which machine doesn't pre-load a lot of 3rd. party junk software that slows things down and gets in people's way, and which machine has a whole network of local stores providing support for it after the sale.
That's really the issue here... Apple can easily afford to dump the creative market, though I think that's a dumb decision. It knows that it has a lot to offer "Joe Average User", regardless of what it does on the high-end. Joe User still cares about how well iPhoto works with his Sony camera to see it every time he plugs it in without needing extra software installed, etc. He doesn't care about Apple Motion or FCP X. And if you, as a "Creative Pro", keep recommending Windows instead of OS X to average users like Joe? You're really just letting your personal opinions and use-cases get in the way of reality.
I've worked in I.T. for over 20 years and while not on the creative side as much as the support/networking/server side -- I'm still considered a "pro" in the field. I'd have to say that especially in recent years, I'm OFTEN asked for recommendations on purchases -- but there's a huge disconnect between what I like/want and what I know is best for others.
So for example? While I might find Apple's insistence on non-upgradable hardware frustrating, and I might think Apple has largely abandoned the "power user" or "creative pro" -- I'd still probably recommend a Mac to a lot of people. In their cases, I'm thinking about such things as which OS will give them less hassles with spyware/malware and which computer makes it easiest to use the peripherals they'll likely try to plug into it (a USB printer or digital camera). I'm also thinking about which machine doesn't pre-load a lot of 3rd. party junk software that slows things down and gets in people's way, and which machine has a whole network of local stores providing support for it after the sale.
That's really the issue here... Apple can easily afford to dump the creative market, though I think that's a dumb decision. It knows that it has a lot to offer "Joe Average User", regardless of what it does on the high-end. Joe User still cares about how well iPhoto works with his Sony camera to see it every time he plugs it in without needing extra software installed, etc. He doesn't care about Apple Motion or FCP X. And if you, as a "Creative Pro", keep recommending Windows instead of OS X to average users like Joe? You're really just letting your personal opinions and use-cases get in the way of reality.
You mean, ask Apple to admit that the MP6,1 was the "Mac Mini Pro" all along?
The MP6,1 is not a bad system, but it fails in many ways as an upgrade to the cheese grater.
Have to disagree here - the cheese grater is an enormous case that's mostly empty due to the "thermal zones".
If you want the retro look of the early 21st century PowerMac - keep the cheese grater visual, but gut the internals and replace with more modern engineering. The PMG5 was built to cool the nuclear fires from the PowerPC chips. No longer an issue.
If you really want to see how bad the classic Mac Pro design is, do the following:
- Get a Mac Pro 5,1, and an HP Z840.
- Double the memory size, add four more internal drives, and two more double-wide GPUs.
No gesture will win anyone back. A gesture might slow the migration to HP, but only temporarily unless there's a real, ongoing commitment to real professional software and hardware.
Just Bing, Yahoo! or the evil search engine for "arrogant apple". (I got 1,250,000 hits.) Arrogance is nothing new.
Not everything takes a study. It's pretty self evident that LOTS of people are influenced by such techno elite. Almost every family member has their tech guru. Ergo the ad about the grankids. You can say that it's anecdotal, but it's not. It's an aggregated truth. It's also why many social networks recruit and pay tastemakers money for product placements and advertising. Youtube, facebook, twitter and elsewhere.
Now you can disagree with that view, fair enough, but some people refuse to accept anything they cant see despite the wind hitting them upside their face.
Out with the trash can! In with the cheese grater!
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Sadly, I think you may have wasted your time. I've emailed Tim Cook many times and it resulted in nothing.
The OP's reasoning is right on the money. I did the same thing several months ago. I ordered a Z230 Workstation from B&H. It came with a quad i7 3.6Ghz, 8GB RAM, an OD, Intel 4600 graphics, licenses and CD-ROMs for both Windows 7 Pro and 8.1 Pro with W7 Pro installed on a WD 1TB blue drive. The whole thing cost about $1100, about the same as a pretty nice mini. Of course it's way more powerful and flexible than a mini. It was way more than enough computer for most people's use.
I upped the RAM to 32GB, a HP's really fast USB 3 card reader onto the custom header and added a Quadro 4200 GPU. Now with W10 on an existing 1TB SSD and two WD 4TB Enterprise drives I've got the perfect machine for me. Not counting the existing drives I'm in it about $2100. All of the added components are HP branded and automatically have warranties that matches the Z's standard 3/yr P&L. Everything fit perfectly and was so reasonably priced compared to Apple's add-ons.
It has been a fantastic experience. It's so easy to add upgrades to. I find W10 to be an excellent OS. I mainly use PS CS and various genealogical software. I have the same software on my Macs and the Windows machine is much easier to work on and easier to read. I love the normal keyboard and mouse, and especially the normal, expected hot-key strokes.
My 2012 Mac Pro with a 3.46 six-core, 24GB RAM and an SATA3 SSD via an Apricorn PCI card is one hell of a machine. I use it every few days for watching TV or backing up data from the PC. I also have a 2012 i7 mini with 16GB RAM sitting on the desk not even plugged in. If the Mac Pro dies I'll shove its SSD into the mini a carry on with Calendar, iTunes interfacing with my iPhone 6.
The next stop is the 2012 MBP goes away and gets replaced by an enterprise-level HP laptop with lots of power and lots of connectivity. Apple pretty much gave up on computers. The competition got a lot better with their quality machines and I followed.
I upped the RAM to 32GB, a HP's really fast USB 3 card reader onto the custom header and added a Quadro 4200 GPU. Now with W10 on an existing 1TB SSD and two WD 4TB Enterprise drives I've got the perfect machine for me. Not counting the existing drives I'm in it about $2100. All of the added components are HP branded and automatically have warranties that matches the Z's standard 3/yr P&L. Everything fit perfectly and was so reasonably priced compared to Apple's add-ons.
It has been a fantastic experience. It's so easy to add upgrades to. I find W10 to be an excellent OS. I mainly use PS CS and various genealogical software. I have the same software on my Macs and the Windows machine is much easier to work on and easier to read. I love the normal keyboard and mouse, and especially the normal, expected hot-key strokes.
My 2012 Mac Pro with a 3.46 six-core, 24GB RAM and an SATA3 SSD via an Apricorn PCI card is one hell of a machine. I use it every few days for watching TV or backing up data from the PC. I also have a 2012 i7 mini with 16GB RAM sitting on the desk not even plugged in. If the Mac Pro dies I'll shove its SSD into the mini a carry on with Calendar, iTunes interfacing with my iPhone 6.
The next stop is the 2012 MBP goes away and gets replaced by an enterprise-level HP laptop with lots of power and lots of connectivity. Apple pretty much gave up on computers. The competition got a lot better with their quality machines and I followed.
So, yep, that is exactly what happened. I wanted to buy a Mac Pro for my 4k editing needs. I nursed my 2009 Mac Pro 4,1 for 7 years, upgrading the RAM, the video card, constantly changing out hard drives as my needs dictated, loving the configurability and reliability of that machine.
But it was choking on the 4k footage I'm editing now, the bottleneck was memory and processor, and the only solution was to replace it with something faster, that could be upgraded over the years as I did with the classic Mac Pro.
So I shopped the Mac Pro, configured it to what I needed, and ended up with a decent system: the 3.5 GHZ six core, 64GB of RAM, 256 Flash Drive, and the dual D700 GPUs. That came to $5,799.00. Really, Apple? For a machine that hasn't been updated since 2013?!?! Add to that the fact that I don't trust Apple to keep building the Mac Pro - burned by Aperture and FCPX - and the fact that this machine will never be able to be updated over the coming years the way I did with the 2009 Mac Pro.
So I found myself researching HP workstations.
A couple days research later, I had my system. The HP Z640 Workstation. 3.5 GHZ 6 core Xeon, 256GB PCI Flash Drive, adding an AMD 390x graphics card and 64GB of RAM. With the additional memory and graphics card, it came to just over $3,000.00
Apple, I think, IMHO, is moving on from the professional market. It just doesn't make sense otherwise. Killing off the professional software, building "pro" machines that don't meet pro needs, not consistently updating the "pro" machines they do build... you get the idea.
Makes me sad, as I've been relying on Apple for professional needs for many years. But I believe the ethos of the company has changed... time to move on.
[doublepost=1461876080][/doublepost]Oh, i will admit, I'm keeping the old Mac Pro as well. Still perfectly suitable for photo editing and personal use.
Should have just built your own computer for even less and turned it into a hackintosh.
Prove it - and be sure to factor in the HP warranty in your "for even less", and hair coloring to cover up the grey induced by incidents of "the hackintosh doesn't 'just work'" or "it worked until the Apple OSX 10.11.12 update".
I stopped doing DIY systems after some weird problems with home-built systems - eventually sent one to eWaste and replaced it with a Dell with 4 year next-business-day at home warranty. (And of course, the Dell has ECC memory.)
Your "should have" advice ignores what the OP was looking for.
Windows is a solid, quality OS. If your computer is a tool, not a religion, it's a fine choice.
______
Building and supporting a Hackintosh from cheaper components (or even more expensive components that have never been tested together) may be the right answer for you - but not for the OP.
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Too many people had their hands on iPhones/iPads/Macs to let the tech savvy influence them that much. While the techies will have complaints, the average consumer will have their own opinions having used these products on a massive scale already. Because their experiences with Apples products will probably be much different than the creative professionals.
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This may be true for some, but not for me and my family. I have 6 siblings with families of their own, as well as a large extended family. Over the years I probably convinced half of all the households to buy at least one Mac, then iPhones, iPads, etc. I think one of my nieces or nephews has one of them yet thats on its last leg that they use because my sister doesn't care about it anymore. Other than that none of them have Macs. They all asked me about upgrading, but I told them any computer they wanted to buy would do what they wanted because it was true. They didn't pick macs. Most of them who had iPhones still have them, but as I already mentioned they don't upgrade them until the device breaks.... and since they no longer have macs, I wouldn't be surprised if they go to another phone. My older sister already did.