Apple Made Me Buy a Windows HP Workstation

[Hank Carter]

And that scalability has never been part of the Mac platform, even at their most diffuse. So complaining about it now is a random critique.

The 5,1 was scalable. It had dual CPU's and you could drop in multiple GPU if needed or any other PCI card. Not to mention the ability to pack it with internal drives.

Prior to that all of Apples Pro machines dating back to the Macintosh II had slots (NuBus) that made them scalable.

The Trashcan is the exception to the rule. They may as well have called it the Mac Pro Mini.
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Actual data. Actual facts. That's what I was asking about.

Ok, how about some actual facts, surveys and market research data to support your position?

 

[joema2]

...I wanted to buy a Mac Pro for my 4k editing needs. I nursed my 2009 Mac Pro 4,1 for 7 years...But it was choking on the 4k footage I'm editing now, the bottleneck was memory and processorSo I shopped the Mac Pro, configured it to what I needed, and ended up with a decent system: the 3.5 GHZ six core, 64GB of RAM, 256 Flash Drive, and the dual D700 GPUs. That came to $5,799.00. Really, Apple? For a machine that hasn't been updated since 2013?!?!...I don't trust Apple...burned by Aperture and FCPX...So I found myself researching HP workstations....A couple days research later, I had my system. The HP Z640 Workstation. 3.5 GHZ 6 core Xeon, 256GB PCI Flash Drive, adding an AMD 390x graphics card and 64GB of RAM. With the additional memory and graphics card, it came to just over $3,000.00....

I assume you are using Premiere since you're complaining about it being slow on 4K. I use both CC and FCPX professionally and you are right -- Premiere's frame rate when fast forwarding on an H264 4K timeline is 20 times slower than FCPX, and the JKL keyboard lag is vastly slower. The Mercury rendering engine that did so well on H264 1080 falls on its face on 4K. Premiere doesn't use Intel's Quick Sync so there is no hardware-assisted H264 encode/decode, but Xeon doesn't have that anyway so that can't help the Mac Pro. Premiere currently has no built-in proxy capability, so you are really stuck.

Given your exact situation I think you did the right thing. There is little difference to running Premiere on Windows vs OS X. You have a lot more and cheaper hardware options on PCs. You can compensate for the slow software by throwing inexpensive hardware at it.

The good news is Adobe has major performance upgrades for their suite in the pipeline, including using Apple's Metal API which will greatly help Premiere and After Effects. However they are also adding built-in proxy support which will help Premiere on both OS X and Windows. They are also adding Quick Sync support (unfortunately Windows only for now).

This is the end of this Mac Pro design cycle and it has limited upgradeability, so of course it seems slow relative to a brand-new PC workstation. You have a valid point Apple created this situation. You can afford to get a new iMac and essentially write it off after 3-4 years but a Mac Pro is a bigger investment so the inability to easily upgrade it puts you in a box -- literally in this case -- you went to a box

 

[jameslmoser]

That was 2007...fast forward to 2016. A much different scenario now. If you think millions are going to leave now because of what a minority of people are going to say is not likely going to happen. Initially it might of caught on by some techies, but we are long past that stage.

One of the biggest problems with Windows Phone is a lack of apps. When the Pros are using Windows Phone (or competitors) you can bet they will want to create apps for those platforms. And when the creative types/developers stop caring so much about those products they don't use themselves, the quality of the apps/content on those devices will begin to suffer. There are direct and indirect consequences to the direction Apple has taken. As I said, my family didn't care. They seen the Surface with pen support way before iPad Pro with Pencil. My nephew seen all the other students using Surfaces and so he bought one. Most users who are not techies just don't seem to have the same level of brand loyalty in my experience.

 

[Melodist]

I'm glad someone is on the same page as I am considering I've been an object of ridicule in the nMP 2016 thread, having given thought to a seemingly unavoidable alternative imposed by Apple itself. Finally reason puts check on this twisted matter.

One of the biggest problems with Windows Phone is a lack of apps. When the Pros are using Windows Phone (or competitors) you can bet they will want to create apps for those platforms. And when the creative types/developers stop caring so much about those products they don't use themselves, the quality of the apps/content on those devices will begin to suffer. There are direct and indirect consequences to the direction Apple has taken. As I said, my family didn't care. They seen the Surface with pen support way before iPad Pro with Pencil. My nephew seen all the other students using Surfaces and so he bought one. Most users who are not techies just don't seem to have the same level of brand loyalty in my experience.

Apple's iPhone is an unquestionable success, both in software and hardware performance and not the center of this discussion, but the Mac "Pro" line, which on the contrary is opposite to the latter.

 

[AidenShaw]

Article about and quoting from this thread

"Apple’s Failure to Scale"
http://www.macobserver.com/tmo/article/apples-failure-to-scale

Even quoted my "asinine" comment.

 

[Melodist]

Even quoted my "asinine" comment.

Certain people from the locked nMP in 2015? thread should be linked to this article.

And to be honest, I'd probably pay the obscene amount of money, if the new Mac Pro served my needs. But not being able to add PCIe cards, not being able to throw hard drives in it... etc. It's just ridiculous. I see audio and video pros still nursing their old Mac Pros and I can't help but wonder; isn't Apple aware that professionals, at least the majority, have not bought into their idea of a tiny non expandable Mac Pro? Or do they care?

Ever since Steve passed away, Apple has stopped caring. I mean, as you've stated, they apparently don't care at all, like recognising their decadent mistake and promise to fix the issue. But then again, to a lot of users on this board, there is no problem If the new Mac Pro was a hub to connect to a rendering server farm and you'd annually pay for computing time, most of them would probably go like "F* yeah, that's the future, sign me up".

 

[jameslmoser]

I
Apple's iPhone is an unquestionable success, both in software and hardware performance and not the center of this discussion, but the Mac "Pro" line, which on the contrary is opposite to the latter.

Yes but its part of the whole ecosystem, and Apple knows this thats why they try and take advantage of it and try locking you into it. If you neglect part of the ecosystem it will affect other parts of it. Would the iPhone have had the success without the developers who used macs? No.

 

[Melodist]

Yes but its part of the whole ecosystem, and Apple knows this thats why they try and take advantage of it and try locking you into it. If you neglect part of the ecosystem it will affect other parts of it. Would the iPhone have had the success without the developers who used macs? No.

Well, what you can derive from this, is that they put all their effort into the iPhone, a good chunk of it into the iPad, a little bit into iMacs and Macbook / Pros and NONE into the Mac Pro. It'll be their demise if they don't shift gears. Regarding the Mac Pro in particular, something DRASTIC has to happen that'll surprise everybody, otherwise their "Pro" corpse will just keep on rotting in the same putrid water it's been in the whole time.

I mean, what "professional" would seriously buy their Pro iPad? I mean, for real, I feel like they will become a design label or something rich people buy at fashion shows. "Wow, what's that shiny cube? A computer?! So cool! I will need one to accent my Guccie wall cabinet". They should've advertised the nMP like this: Practicality = 0, Design = Everything, Apple.

"Future proof hardware? We don't need it. Upgradable design? We don't need it. Customer satisfaction? We don't need it." We might as well have been trolled by a hipster at Apple, coming up with nMP's impractical and shiftless concept just to make a difference.

 

[linuxcooldude]

One of the biggest problems with Windows Phone is a lack of apps. When the Pros are using Windows Phone (or competitors) you can bet they will want to create apps for those platforms. And when the creative types/developers stop caring so much about those products they don't use themselves, the quality of the apps/content on those devices will begin to suffer. There are direct and indirect consequences to the direction Apple has taken. As I said, my family didn't care. They seen the Surface with pen support way before iPad Pro with Pencil. My nephew seen all the other students using Surfaces and so he bought one. Most users who are not techies just don't seem to have the same level of brand loyalty in my experience.

The problem with Windows phone was Microsoft was really late to the game and never caught up. Developers tend to go where the most money is at. Some developers might even love Android more than iOS, but the biggest money is still in iOS.

 

[hiddenmarkov]

Prove it - and be sure to factor in the HP warranty in your "for even less", and hair coloring to cover up the grey induced by incidents of "the hackintosh doesn't 'just work'" or "it worked until the Apple OSX 10.11.12 update".

I stopped doing DIY systems after some weird problems with home-built systems - eventually sent one to eWaste and replaced it with a Dell with 4 year next-business-day at home warranty. (And of course, the Dell has ECC memory.)

Your "should have" advice ignores what the OP was looking for.

Windows is a solid, quality OS. If your computer is a tool, not a religion, it's a fine choice.
______

Building and supporting a Hackintosh from cheaper components (or even more expensive components that have never been tested together) may be the right answer for you - but not for the OP.

Actually since about workstations, in theory, there is also the option to buy the server OS for windows. I have done this in the past. Its more stable than the Client OS, has fluff removed as it were so you get a much trimmer install. Add what is missing or desired. Very rare is the install I have seen that said oh, you have a server OS, we can't install on this.

Nice thing about this route is you should know what "broke" your system. Installed X, fine, installed Y, fine, installed Z....something not fine. What about Z is making things go awry?

Worth noting the server OS' can do baseline stuff. they can watch youtube fine. Won't play games well as even the hardware should be limiting that assuming a true content creation card used and ECC ram used to cover bit flips (yes I know rare as hell, but I tend to like ECC for workstations to say all was done to make sure).

Build a generic/game machine for that (or buy a console....mine gets lots of use when I fire up FCP on the MBP and its looking like it needs to think deep thoughts for a good hour).

Also worth noting at least based on newegg pricing the prices aren't that bad. You just spent 2000+ for a content creation hardware beast...whats a few hundred more for the server OS? Especially when it can give some bene's for that cost.


Client OS...fine as well. Server OS just that nice touch for real rock solid.

 

[flat five]

And lets not forget how there is hardly any CAD/CAM software for Mac.

CAD isn't bad on mac these days.. CAM still bad.
i emailed mecsoft and madCam earlier this year asking if they're coming over to mac and unfortunately, they aren't.

i've been using fusion360 for CAM.. it's pretty good and improving monthly.. try it if you haven't already.

I do have a mid 2014 15" rMBP with the GT750M but it's a pathetic card for CAD?CAM

that card is fine or even good for cad work on a laptop.. if you're getting pathetic results with it, something is broken or the software isn't entirely compatible (though with that card, i imagine the standard softwares aren't in conflict with it.. on either osx or bootcamped.)

 

[Hank Carter]

I just spec'd a HP Z640.

Dual 8 core XEON v3, Titan with 12GB, 16GB, 256GB SSD, Thunderbolt. Just under $4700.
You can also get the same box with dual six Core XEON for $1000 less.

I think the 12 core D700 on my desk at work is over $8000


June better be full of surprises.

 

[Fancuku]

I know of Fusion 360. I use it at home since it doesn't cost anything for hobbyist. It's good and is very similar to Inventor with HSM Works.
At work we use Solidworks for CAD and Mastercam for CAM. None are available on Mac but can't fault Apple for that.

that card is fine or even good for cad work on a laptop.. if you're getting pathetic results with it, something is broken or the software isn't entirely compatible (though with that card, i imagine the standard softwares aren't in conflict with it.. on either osx or bootcamped.)

It's pathetic compared to the Quadro K5000M that the Dell Precision M6800 at work has. That card is a beast.

 

[Melodist]

I just spec'd a HP Z640.

Dual 8 core XEON v3, Titan with 12GB, 16GB, 256GB SSD, Thunderbolt. Just under $4700.
You can also get the same box with dual six Core XEON for $1000 less.

I think the 12 core D700 on my desk at work is over $8000


June better be full of surprises.

Yeah I've spotted HP's workstations and was impressed myself, thinking about upgrading from my Early 2008. Especially the same CPU's that are used to run the current nMP come really cheap with their workstations in dual configuration.

 

[Hank Carter]

Yeah I've spotted HP's workstations and was impressed myself, thinking about upgrading from my Early 2008. Especially the same CPU's that are used to run the current nMP come really cheap with their workstations in dual configuration.

Price wise the HP boxes are at the upper range of the market. But you do get a quality machine that you simply plug in, fire up and it comes with a three year warrant and tech support.

A friend of mine who is a sysadmin mentioned that they are not ideal if you want to stick more than 2 GPU in them (space and power), but I'm not sure what generation of the Z series he was referring to.

 

[fuchsdh]

The 5,1 was scalable. It had dual CPU's and you could drop in multiple GPU if needed or any other PCI card. Not to mention the ability to pack it with internal drives.

Prior to that all of Apples Pro machines dating back to the Macintosh II had slots (NuBus) that made them scalable.

The Trashcan is the exception to the rule. They may as well have called it the Mac Pro Mini.
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Ok, how about some actual facts, surveys and market research data to support your position?

Aiden is talking about 3+ processor machines, 1TB of RAM, and quad Titans. The 5,1 maxed out at dual sockets, and even if the 6,1 had been in the same mold it'd still only be doing 256GB in all likelihood, with the same PSU and expansion slot abilities. Modern Apple never has and never will sell such a machine, and that's not something that just started when Jobs died.

"Ok, how about some actual facts, surveys and market research data to support your position?"—That's not how it works. You all are making the argument, you have to support it.

 

[Hank Carter]

Aiden is talking about 3+ processor machines, 1TB of RAM, and quad Titans. The 5,1 maxed out at dual sockets, and even if the 6,1 had been in the same mold it'd still only be doing 256GB in all likelihood, with the same PSU and expansion slot abilities. Modern Apple never has and never will sell such a machine, and that's not something that just started when Jobs died.

No, Apple never made such a box, but up to this point the performance of their pro boxes has always been scaleable and not a locked system like the 6,1.

"Ok, how about some actual facts, surveys and market research data to support your position?"—That's not how it works. You all are making the argument, you have to support it.

So, the burden of proof is on everyone else and you get some special exemption? I don't think so. It's a two way street.

 

[fuchsdh]

No, Apple never made such a box, but up to this point the performance of their pro boxes has always been scaleable and not a locked system like the 6,1.



So, the burden of proof is on everyone else and you get some special exemption? I don't think so. It's a two way street.

The claim being made is that creative professionals are abandoning the Mac in droves, and this matters to Apple because these creatives were spurring others to buy Macs in appreciable numbers. I'm not the one making it, you all are. "The necessity of proof always lies with the person who lays charges," and all that legal framing.

 

[JamesPDX]

I just spec'd a HP Z640.

Dual 8 core XEON v3, Titan with 12GB, 16GB, 256GB SSD, Thunderbolt. Just under $4700.
You can also get the same box with dual six Core XEON for $1000 less.

I think the 12 core D700 on my desk at work is over $8000


June better be full of surprises.

Do you know of anybody using a "renderPro 2" etc., to do the gruntwork of CPU/GPU intensive tasks? As in, "Yeah, I'm just gonna go ahead and plug my 2012 Mini into a RenderBoxx via ethernet and get back to work..."

 

[Hank Carter]

The claim being made is that creative professionals are abandoning the Mac in droves, and this matters to Apple because these creatives were spurring others to buy Macs in appreciable numbers. I'm not the one making it, you all are. "The necessity of proof always lies with the person who lays charges," and all that legal framing.

This is very simple.

First of all it's not a charge, but a personal observation based on first hand experience.

Several people on this thread have reported a phenomena based on personal experience and observation. I include myself in this group. I've seen this happen at multiple companies and as a creative professional I have steered many people towards Apple, which resulted in them purchasing multiple products over the years and caused a chain reaction with people they knew etc. This was particularly easy to observe back in the 'dark ages', when Apple had one foot in the grave and the other on a banana peel and Apple users were primarily relegated to the graphics design department and arts in general.

You are claiming that we are all imagining things and need to provide you with facts and data to back up what we have experienced and seen first hand. So, essentially you are charging that were either all delusional or lying.

See how this works?

 

[mrhick01]

And this is what I have come to realize. Apple is a company making products for the average consumer now. Most people are perfectly happy with that.

I don't think that will change.

Some of you gentlemen have forgotten, Steve Jobs told you himself that this was the direction that they were going to go in.

The full quote:

If I were running Apple, I would milk the Macintosh for all it's worth — and get busy on the next great thing. The PC wars are over. Done. Microsoft won a long time ago. (02/19/1996, before his second run at Apple)

Apple may be the current "winner" in the electronics wars, but that is ever-shifting.

I admit, the neglect of the Mac Pro is sad, and it does reveal the flaws in designing the can. No matter how innovative the thermal core was, they painted themselves in a corner with a custom motherboard for a model of Xeon that changed to something else with a different set of pins, what...six, eight months later? Dual video cards, but not the best of the best and not upgradable over time. It is utterly pitiful that Apple still sells the 2013 Mac Pro with the same hardware specs for the same prices in 2016...it's terrible.

In retrospect, perhaps a standard tower would have been better, because at least spec bumps could be customized. The least that they could do is show a willingness to have prepared motherboard designs that reflects the CPU/motherboard architecture that Intel has as its roadmap. Even if you only update your truck model in three year cycles, spec bumps and/or price reductions should be mandatory after 12 months.

Maybe...just maybe, the hardware neglect will end after the completion of the new campus and most/all of the creatives and engineers move in and set up shop in it. I would hope that they would not repeat this neglect. Even if desktop computers were only 2 percent of the business, at least have dedicated teams committed to presenting the best hardware/designs that they can muster.

 

[whg]

I have an iPad Mini that I use for RDP, but it frustrates me because mouse support is disabled in iOS. All of the apps I've tried attempt to get around this by translating various touch screen gestures to mouse commands, and some of it is clever, but it's still not nearly as good as straight up mouse support.

Jump Desktop can use the Citrix X1 and the Swiftpoint GT mouse. I switched to this RDP app just for this feature! But I too would like system wide mouse support, e.g for the Office 365 apps which are now very useful on the iPad Pro 12.9".

This thread makes me very sad, also because it confirms some of my own observations. I came to Apple's ecosystem 6 years ago, just after my daughter switched to Apple from a crappy Dell notebook; and contrary to my expectations, it just worked for her.

 

[SoyCapitanSoyCapitan]

I have an iPad Mini that I use for RDP, but it frustrates me because mouse support is disabled in iOS. All of the apps I've tried attempt to get around this by translating various touch screen gestures to mouse commands, and some of it is clever, but it's still not nearly as good as straight up mouse support.

The application I use actually supports mice. Yes, even on iOS. I talked to their support about it and they said iOS has Bluetooth mouse support built-in and even has an API for apps, but it's turned off. Jailbreakers can simply turn it on, with no need to install or patch anything, and then this company's RDP app works with the mouse. I don't want to jailbreak though, it's a pain.

It's already there, I just wish Apple would turn it on.

Does the iPad Pro have Bluetooth mouse support enabled, or is it in the same boat as other iOS devices?

I heard only Citrix provides a mouse and it junky works with their remoting app.

RDP on iOS supports pen input and has a mouse mode for controlling an accelerated cursor with a finger.

 

[bruinsrme]

A little side note on "working" with computers or "professional" use.
Every time I need to concentrate and finish something important I need at least the following.

- Sitting at a desk with an office chair and a monitor in front of me.
- Using a mouse and keyboard that I can move to have a comfortable working position
- Probably a wired network connection to have a non-shared, reliable data transfer
- A large enough display (not resolution) to arrange what I need in front of me

All this talk about mobility and great portable hardware is 80% just to show off how advanced technology has become.
Maybe I'm really getting old, but to get stuff done I need a working environment that enables me to get the job done.

This is true wether I'm writing documentation, do some programming or setting up some remote servers.

What I want to say is that, regardless of what future Apple innovations might come out, I need a workplace with appropriate hardware. If Apple thinks I'm still living in the PC era, that's fine.

Carrying laptops to meetings and discussing some project related stuff at a cafe is all nice and shiny, but work means something else to me.

I love Apple hardware, but if I'm unable to buy what fits my needs, I look somewhere else.
This is the main reason I will always be looking for a nice workstation type machine.

This is all fine using a macbook, but here's my minimal connectivity:
- Power Supply (I like MagSafe)
- Large display (DP or HDMI, don't care)
- Ethernet for corporate network access. I love WiFi for fun, but most places I work at require ethernet
- USB mouse and keyboard because I usually close the laptop and move stuff on my desk. I hate BT.
- USB to be able to connect my iPhone
- USB or analogue audio to connect a headset if I need to use Skype.

Now you can tell me this is all 199x, but this is how I work. I know a lot of people that do so as well.
If Apple limits its products to minimalistic gadgets I have to switch.

I wrote this because most people assume I complain mostly about recent CPU/GPU and GHz.
No, the above stays true regardless of specs.
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Thanks. Made my day

Excellent post
I do a ton of content creation for tech manuals, presentations, FDA investigations and so on.
There is some video editing required and so on.
Mean while I need solid connectivity
A full size key board
Mouse
Having dual 27 inch monitors is a big help.
All this talk about 9.7, 12.9 is all fun stuff.
Sure I can correct a photo's shapes and perspectives on the ipp but when it comes to framing and labeling the ipp becomes a tray for my coffee and muffin.

Apple can recapture the audience they once had but they rather focus on making thinner, lighter and less function computers to peddle adapters, hubs, connectors or whatever else, oh sorry accessories.

Look at iMovie. I have never seen a more crowed screen of non useful items in my life.
Clean it up and sell it.
No they would rather brag about being the most fragile lightest thinnest phone to date.

Apple seems to hold back on their product capabilities.
Mac mini is another example, they mean to tell me they couldn't integrate Apple TV into the mini or iMac?
Newer iMacs can't be used as an external monitor? Hell I would buy one even if only macs could take advantage of the monitor function.

But damn they have pretty stuff and fancy stores.

 

[fuchsdh]

This is very simple.

First of all it's not a charge, but a personal observation based on first hand experience.

Several people on this thread have reported a phenomena based on personal experience and observation. I include myself in this group. I've seen this happen at multiple companies and as a creative professional I have steered many people towards Apple, which resulted in them purchasing multiple products over the years and caused a chain reaction with people they knew etc. This was particularly easy to observe back in the 'dark ages', when Apple had one foot in the grave and the other on a banana peel and Apple users were primarily relegated to the graphics design department and arts in general.

You are claiming that we are all imagining things and need to provide you with facts and data to back up what we have experienced and seen first hand. So, essentially you are charging that were either all delusional or lying.

See how this works?

And I can share my own anecdotes which don't jive with that, especially not trying to tie the 1990s situation with the modern one. But anecdotes are not reliable evidence. But I'm done arguing. "I have my feelings, why should I have to provide objective facts?" is a attitude I can't deal with.