Apple Pay Apple Pay in Germany

[4254126]

I don't know the in-depth details of the anti-geoblocking law.

This wouldn't cover financial services and also only guarantees that you get the service abroad that you get in your home country. Up until now, if you had a Netflix account registered in say, Germany, then a trip to the UK would show you the "UK Netflix". Now, when you log in you'll see all of your usual content from the "German" Netflix.

Also: Apple isn't geo-blocking Apple Pay. I use it every day. There is just no point in opening up Apple Pay to German users on the German region setting, as they can't set up any German bank accounts anyway. I don't quite see the point here to be honest...

EDIT: https://www.macwelt.de/a/smartphone...f-ios-in-deutschland-bei-22-9-prozent,3438993
-> 22,9% up from around 15% (2017) iOS users! The more, the better! Puts more pressure on our beloved banks

 

[RobaxMan]

This guy has a point: https://twitter.com/Sam0711er/status/993796008843849728. Apple Pay is seen as an electronically supplied service.

That guy doesn't have a point. From the link: "Couldn’t you theoretically sue Google/Samsung/Apple in the EU for not providing Android/Samsung/Apple Pay in all member countries?"

Apple Pay is NOT offered and cannot be offered directly to iOS users as say iTunes or iBooks. Apple Pay is a service offered to financial institutions, which in turn, following an agreement with Apple, is then a service/convenience offered to iOS users/clients of those FIs; you can be most assured that it ain't Apple holding up the proceedings, it's the FIs in Germany who have yet come to terms with Apple.

 

[renssies]

Also: Apple isn't geo-blocking Apple Pay. I use it every day. There is just no point in opening up Apple Pay to German users on the German region setting, as they can't set up any German bank accounts anyway. I don't quite see the point here to be honest...

They are geo-blocking the adding of cards and the possibility of offering a service (in terms of the banks not being to offer the service). As far as I know, that does conflict with the rules. And even without German or Dutch banks, we should still be allowed to add cards from other banks in the EER, however, we are not allowed to add cards, until we switch regions.

Edit: I just checked the regulations are also for Business to business transactions, so Apple refusing to offer the Apple Pay service to a German or Dutch bank, is in violation of the rules because they do offer it to financial institutions in other countries

Edit 2: However the full regulation will only take effect after 3 December 2018, it is only partly in effect since February. I have no idea what is in effect and what isn't. So it could be that if Apple launches Apple Pay everywhere in the EU before December, they are not in violating of this regulation. Even if banks don't participate.

 

[4254126]

They are geo-blocking the adding of cards and the possibility of offering a service

But that's just not true... I can easily add cards from supported banks anywhere in the world. I just need to change to the region that my bank is from to get that option - so I actually get support for banks from that region. How many people would it confuse if the option was there but no regular user with one German bank account could add anything to their Wallet?

You don't really need to jump through any hoops to get the services you want. And let's say your a US citizen abroad -> You can easily set up an Apple Pay Cash card by selecting your home region.

I have my phone set to Germany due to the phone/address formats and keep it like that. But if I need to do anything UK related (Apple Pay / want to check the News app / switch App Stores) I'll just quickly switch back and forth without any problems. I feel like Apple makes it easier than some others (see Google Pay as one really bad example!).
[doublepost=1525782307][/doublepost]Anyone noticed that Apple has refreshed ALL the Apple Pay support documents in German (date: 04.05.2018)?

Can't see any big changes, the pictures still depict US cards or are in English, but it's like that for the French support documentation as well

 

[RobaxMan]

Edit: I just checked the regulations are also for Business to business transactions, so Apple refusing to offer the Apple Pay service to a German or Dutch bank, is in violation of the rules because they do offer it to financial institutions in other countries

Again, you can be assured Apple ain't refusing to offer the service - Apple Pay is a revenue item for Apple - it's the coming to terms with the financial institutions. FIs have gotten along just fine to this point by offering their current line-up of credit and debit cards to their customers - offering Apple Pay is NOT a necessity of life it's merely a convenience - a convenience that comes out of their revenue stream.

For greater clarity, Apple needs the financial institutions, it's not the other way around.
[doublepost=1525785154][/doublepost]And, just because a country has FIs offering Apple Pay, doesn't mean that it gets used OR can be used (the 'can be used, is almost totally related to the abysmal uptake of contactless POS terminals by merchants)- here's Apple Pay stats for the US -

https://www.pymnts.com/apple-pay-adoption/

 

[SenileBooster]

And, just because a country has FIs offering Apple Pay, doesn't mean that it gets used OR can be used (the 'can be used, is almost totally related to the abysmal uptake of contactless POS terminals by merchants)- here's Apple Pay stats for the US -

Do not over state those statistics for the US of A. They seriously lacking behind on modern credit card payments.

Just as a exercise of thinking... try to see ApplePay as a bank issuing a payment card. I know I do oversimplification here but now you may see the stats of how many users and how big of money flow there really is in a whole other way. Try to think about it that way.

 

[RobaxMan]

Up until 1 year ago, my favourite cocktail bar in Berlin ONLY accepted cash. 1 year later he accepts cash and cards - only 35% of his clients use cards, with most of those cards being debit cards - 65% of his clients are still packing a wad of cash.

 

[renssies]

I have some bad news, the second bunq trick (ordering of an Italian card) has been killed. The app now uses a GPS (and possible IP) check to see if you are actually in Italy.

Edit: I tested it and indeed it shows an "address doesn't match your current location" error dialog. Even with a VPN and Xcode location spoof it still shows the dialog. So the address really has to be changed to an actual address at that location.

Edit 2: Cards that I've already setup seem to work just fine, just tested the Maestro card at AH

 

[MLVC]

I have some bad news, the second bunq trick (ordering of an Italian card) has been killed. The app now uses a GPS (and possible IP) check to see if you are actually in Italy.

So if you do want to do that, and are planning to take your summer holiday in Italy, remember to do it there

 

[4254126]

I have some bad news, the second bunq trick (ordering of an Italian card) has been killed. The app now uses a GPS (and possible IP) check to see if you are actually in Italy.

Edit: I tested it and indeed it shows an "address doesn't match your current location" error dialog. Even with a VPN and Xcode location spoof it still shows the dialog. So the address really has to be changed to an actual address at that location.

You sure? I only just did that about a week ago and it worked perfectly... Have both cards set up, will try later to see if they are still working :/

 

[renssies]

You sure? I only just did that about a week ago and it worked perfectly... Have both cards set up, will try later to see if they are still working :/

Cards that have already been setup seem to still work, however changing your address to add a new card (or order a new card) sadly doesn't work anymore.

Edit: My Maestro card still works fine for now

 

[4254126]

Cards that have already been setup seem to still work, however changing your address to add a new card (or order a new card) sadly doesn't work anymore.

Bad news ... Very bad news. I'm just hoping this doesn't mean that Apple is cracking down on users with "foreign" Apple Pay set up. Just put that energy into negotiating decent deals with the banks for god's sake!

 

[RobaxMan]

Just put that energy into negotiating decent deals with the banks for god's sake!

If Apple's starting position is 0.15% per credit card transaction AND the German bank's interchange fees are capped at 0.30% for Visa and MasterCard transactions ... negotiations could be mired for sometime and I'm pretty sure, at this stage of the Apple Pay game, Apple isn't looking for a loss leader to gain market entry.

Don't forget the banks are doing all the heavy lifting here with respect transaction processing, customer defaults, etc, etc, etc - Apple's just getting paid for riding on the back of contactless pay technology and tokenization that they invested nothing in to develop.

 

[4254126]

If Apple's starting position is 0.15% per credit card transaction AND the German bank's interchange fees are capped at 0.30% for Visa and MasterCard transactions ... negotiations could be mired for sometime and I'm pretty sure, at this stage of the Apple Pay game, Apple isn't looking for a loss leader to gain market entry.

Don't forget the banks are doing all the heavy lifting here with respect transaction processing, customer defaults, etc, etc, etc - Apple's just getting paid for riding on the back of contactless pay technology and tokenization that they invested nothing in to develop.

I'm well aware of that. So Apple needs to find a different strategy if they want in.

 

[reneHB]

Apple wants to introduce its own Apple Pay credit card.

https://9to5mac.com/2018/05/10/apple-pay-credit-card/

 

[RobaxMan]

Apple wants to introduce its own Apple Pay credit card.

https://9to5mac.com/2018/05/10/apple-pay-credit-card/

It would be an Apple Pay-branded credit card offered through Goldman Sachs - so, who knows if that would just be a US-based offering ONLY, or further afield! Anyway, it's not Apple's first foray into the branded credit card business.

 

[Alanin]

Maybe that’s a try to push AP to the whole world. I think Goldman Sachs has a banking license in every (or at least most) countries and going to do worldwide service...

We’ll see...

 

[renssies]

Just to reassure people that used the bunq workaround:

bunq will not deactivate the card or decline any transactions for cards that have already been activated. You can keep using the feature until the card needs to be replaced or expires.​

With them locking down the workarounds I was getting worried that the cards might soon be blocked as well, so I emailed them and gave me the above response.

 

[MLVC]

Just to reassure people that used the bunq workaround:

bunq will not deactivate the card or decline any transactions for cards that have already been activated. You can keep using the feature until the card needs to be replaced or expires.​

With them locking down the workarounds I was getting worried that the cards might soon be blocked as well, so I emailed them and gave me the above response.

Thanks! Well, that gives Apple and the Dutch banks until 04/22 to work it out

 

[4254126]

Just to reassure people that used the bunq workaround:

bunq will not deactivate the card or decline any transactions for cards that have already been activated. You can keep using the feature until the card needs to be replaced or expires.​

With them locking down the workarounds I was getting worried that the cards might soon be blocked as well, so I emailed them and gave me the above response.

So if I get a new phone, does that mean that I can carry on using the card and activate it in Apple Pay?

 

[RobaxMan]

So if I get a new phone, does that mean that I can carry on using the card and activate it in Apple Pay?

Hmmm ... that's a tricky one.

From Apple Support -

Add a card on your iPhone

1. Go to Wallet and tap.
2. Follow the steps to add a new card. If you're asked to add the card that you use with iTunes, cards on other devices, or cards that you’ve recently removed, choose them, then enter the card security codes.
3. Tap Next. Your bank or card issuer will verify your information and decide if you can use your card with Apple Pay. If your bank or issuer needs more information to verify your card, they'll ask you for it. When you have the information, go back to Wallet and tap your card.
4. After your bank or issuer verifies your card, tap Next.

Reads like, even if you "transfer" the card to your new phone you still need contact with the issuer to "activate" the card on the new device ... the language is tricky.

 

[4254126]

Hmmm ... that's a tricky one.

From Apple Support -

Add a card on your iPhone

1. Go to Wallet and tap.
2. Follow the steps to add a new card. If you're asked to add the card that you use with iTunes, cards on other devices, or cards that you’ve recently removed, choose them, then enter the card security codes.
3. Tap Next. Your bank or card issuer will verify your information and decide if you can use your card with Apple Pay. If your bank or issuer needs more information to verify your card, they'll ask you for it. When you have the information, go back to Wallet and tap your card.
4. After your bank or issuer verifies your card, tap Next.

Reads like, even if you "transfer" the card to your new phone you still need contact with the issuer to "activate" the card on the new device ... the language is tricky.

Yes, the cards always need to be verified. Adding to that all that is done through the bunq app (you can't input the card details yourself). My only question is if already activated "Italian" cards can be activated without problems through the app on a new phone. I'm not risking my account for this

 

[AlexSch91]

Yes, the cards always need to be verified. Adding to that all that is done through the bunq app (you can't input the card details yourself). My only question is if already activated "Italian" cards can be activated without problems through the app on a new phone. I'm not risking my account for this

That´s exactly what I asked here a few sites before.
There I mentioned that someone was explaining it in this thread or in the thread we used before.

Maybe someone can find it on those many sites we already wrote

As far as I can remember the person explained, that once the card is activated it can´t be blocked by the banks because you got this device account number and with that you are registered with your device on the apple server. So maybe Apple is the only one that can block this registered Apple Pay device account number. That would match with that bunq wrote that already activated cards can be used forward and also that this guy that tricked N26 and got canceled still was able to use Apple Pay until his bank´s cancelation period was over. So when N26 would have been able to stop the Apple Pay function immediately for this guy, they would have done it.

And when you buy a new iPhone or Apple Watch you get a new device account number for Apple Pay (each device has another number) so I guess that it will not work on the new device.

So if this guess is right I´m happy that I already registered boon on my iPhone 7 and Watch Series 3. If they block Boon I hope I´m able to keep these registered Apple Pay capable devices until the official Germany start comes in the next century

 

[RobaxMan]

As far as I can remember the person explained, that once the card is activated it can´t be blocked by the banks because you got this device account number and with that you are registered with your device on the apple server. So maybe Apple is the only one that can block this registered Apple Pay device account number.

From Apple Support -

"After your card is approved, your bank, your bank’s authorized service provider, or your card issuer creates a device-specific Device Account Number, encrypts it, and sends it along with other data (such as the key used to generate dynamic security codes that are unique to each transaction) to Apple. The Device Account Number can’t be decrypted by Apple but is stored in the Secure Element—an industry-standard, certified chip designed to store your payment information safely—on your device. Unlike with usual credit or debit card numbers, the card issuer can prevent its use on a magnetic stripe card, over the phone, or on websites. The Device Account Number in the Secure Element is isolated from iOS, watchOS, and macOS, is never stored on Apple servers, and is never backed up to iCloud.

Apple doesn’t store or have access to the original card numbers of credit, debit, or prepaid cards that you add to Apple Pay. Apple Pay stores only a portion of your actual card numbers and a portion of your Device Account Numbers, along with a card description."

 

[AlexSch91]

Ok, forgot most of my words

@RobaxMan
Thanks for the info!