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Populus

macrumors 603
Aug 24, 2012
5,928
8,404
Spain, Europe
Mountain lion was terrible. I skipped it all together on my old Macs when it was released. iTunes on that version was a disaster, had WiFi issues. My 2014 MBP is locked down, doesn’t connect to internet and only connects to one device in network. I still kept it around for old thunderbolt drives, I need to move and retire. I hate running older unpatched OS.
Well, to be fair, it was better than Lion. In my experience, 12 years ago, with my old 13” 2010 MBP, Lion was a disaster. Mountain lion felt more stable and refined. But it was with Mavericks that OS X felt again fast and buttery smooth.

Anyways, I think we’re getting off topic.
 
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MBAir2010

macrumors 604
May 30, 2018
6,975
6,354
there
Mountain lion was terrible. I skipped it all together on my old Macs when it was released. iTunes on that version was a disaster, had WiFi issues. My 2014 MBP is locked down, doesn’t connect to internet and only connects to one device in network. I still kept it around for old thunderbolt drives, I need to move and retire. I hate running older unpatched OS.
your right..
what dream am i in as an  prdocut from last decade STILL working...f
therefore
I will buy a
ASUS - Zenbook 14 OLED 14” 3K Touch Laptop- Intel Core Ultra 7- Arc Graphics- 32GB Memory- 1TB SSD- Intel Evo Edition - Ponder Blue

nice
payment accepted .....i will get this Wednesday

and never post here again!here
 
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Confused-User

macrumors 6502a
Oct 14, 2014
850
984
They can literally instrument their own software and operating system and create their own instructions to speed up things that are done a lot.
That's true, but mostly not a thing. They did add instructions to support faster x86 emulation, but other than that, I don't think that's been done.

Everyone keeps talking about how Apple controlling their entire stack is such an advantage compared to Wintel because they can optimize all the different parts for each other. This is really a BS narrative - it's true that they can and do, but it's not the reason AS Macs are so fast. They are so fast simply because the AS chips are so damn fast (and efficient). They're not fast because the OS and chips are specially designed for each other- that's just a small knock-on benefit.
 

pshufd

macrumors G4
Original poster
Oct 24, 2013
10,145
14,571
New Hampshire
That's true, but mostly not a thing. They did add instructions to support faster x86 emulation, but other than that, I don't think that's been done.

Everyone keeps talking about how Apple controlling their entire stack is such an advantage compared to Wintel because they can optimize all the different parts for each other. This is really a BS narrative - it's true that they can and do, but it's not the reason AS Macs are so fast. They are so fast simply because the AS chips are so damn fast (and efficient). They're not fast because the OS and chips are specially designed for each other- that's just a small knock-on benefit.

I remember when Intel added an instruction that was quite useful for database servers.

And SSE2, of course, was great for multimedia.

I've never seen an AS architecture document and instruction set manual so I have no visibility into what the instruction set is. But optimizing software using hardware instructions is something that I've done before but it was only looking for already existing instructions that the compiler didn't take advantage of.
 

crazy dave

macrumors 65816
Sep 9, 2010
1,450
1,219
This is a minor blip and a not unusual engineering problem which has been somewhat sensationalised. Sometimes there are manufacturing flaws that show up in production that you don't find before hand. And it's really quite difficult getting to the bottom of the problem.

I would suggest that if you think this is bad you want to see what happens during post market surveillance in the pharmaceuticals industry.

What has been wonderful was the share price tank which I bought a crap load of at the bottom of the tank.

Edit: going into slightly more detail, this is a mortal risk for Apple too. They are an early adopter of TSMC nodes. If TSMC make the same mistake, which is certainly not impossible, then things will be similarly problematic. When I worked in the industry a long time ago, we used very old processes (350nm CMOS) because we needed stuff to work reliably.

Indeed. They are bread and butter for OEMs so you probably can't lose over time.



I think that's a lot of sensationalism talking from social media and the YouTube channels rather than an honest engineering discussion and I would suggest that the latter is what we should focus on. Here are some problems which tend to occur here which can make investigation difficult:
  1. The SKUs which were reported as affected were the -K and -KS ones initially which are firstly unlocked and secondly the lowest number of shipped units from the series.
  2. Most of those SKUs are in end user hands so there are at least two layers (store / distributor) in front of Intel when it comes to getting failed samples back in their hands. Having worked with buying large quantities of Intel stuff from distributors before, it's very difficult to get them to report anything back to Intel to the point that Intel tended to reach out to even low volume resellers to get info out of them.
  3. It's really difficult to get the full picture of the failure conditions because we have a combination of a third party OEM board manufacturer, another third party BIOS/UEFI vendor and the final system integrator who all have to get together and produce something that works.
  4. It's even more difficult picking out statistical failures (yes some failures are expected!) from unexpected failures. It takes quite a large sample to even work that out.
  5. On top of that they have to filter out all the people who have blown up their CPUs through overclocking them, poor cooling or incompetent engineering.
That's a lot of variables to isolate which is why it takes a long time.



Intel are still shipping millions of boring CPUs absolutely fine. This is a fairly low amount of noise.



This is the start of the current tech collapse which is a combination of the AI bubble bursting, our current geopolitical situation and market conditions. Also 100% not specific to Intel - they are just the first company to (wisely) react to the market collapse. They went all in on AI because Microsoft demanded that they start shipping AI PCs on the market and Intel had to meet that market demand or lose business to an ARM OEM. Well it turns out that was and still is a completely non viable market so they are literally shaving off the mistake quickly before the real down turn kicks in. By mid-2025 nearly all the companies out there that invested in this will have little if nothing to show for the investment and that's when it hurts. The big investment companies already pulled out and are letting the individual investors pay for their gains.

Anyway, look forward a year if they don't screw it up. They have new nodes online, geopolitical security, a viable low power mobile strategy and a better architecture to deliver what people really want: millions of corporate laptops exactly but less hot and slightly faster than the last generation. That's a much better situation than the competition. Where do you think the attention is going?

The biggest risk on the market is nothing to do with any fab or hardware provision: it's the software fads.

While the full impact of the Intel's 13th and 14th generation woes may be unknown, to describe them thus far as a minor blip would be premature at best. And in my opinion they are already more than that. Further I'd say that there is a lot of information in your post that is wrong, overly optimistic, or out of date.

1) There have been at least two problems with 13th and 14th gen processors. The first is the oxidation problem that you allude to as a function of Intel's manufacturing woes and to say "those issues can happen to anyone" is a little facile. They didn't happen to anyone, they happened to Intel. And they happened specifically because of Intel's attempt to rush through as many nodes as possible while still trying to produce their chips leading to bottlenecks during the production process leaving wafers out to oxidize. Intel is not communicating with customers which chips are affected by this and is just saying "some early 13th gen processors" without being specific. When you have competition, losing customer trust, including OEMs who have admitted that Intel has not been forthcoming on this issue even to them, isn't good.

2) The second, unrelated, problem is the design flaw in the microcode that allowed the chips to over-volt when already overheating. This doesn't just affect K and KS SKUs. Those are the most prevalently affected, but every desktop processor over 65W is at risk and has had its warranty extended. It's a fairly substantial portion of their desktop lineup.

3) In addition to servers based on these desktop chips, there have been allegations that some mobile chips may be affected as well. Intel admits that they have had reports of frequent crashes but claims that those problems are "different". Unclear if different is good however.

4) They are making it quite difficult for customers to make returns and basically said if you get rejected just keep trying. Many of the affected customers are business customers not just individual consumers. These are customers that buy thousands or more CPUs at a time. Again, losing the trust of those customers and having them buy AMD instead is obviously not good.

5) Low volume products are also high margin products as well as halo products. You can ask AMD how competing in graphics against Nvidia felt without such halos for multiple generations over the last decade. Competing in the low margin products doesn't give Intel the needed revenue to fund its fabs, which is actually why they are in such trouble, more on that later in point 8. Intel needs the halos and the high margins to fund itself, especially now.

6) "millions of corporate laptops exactly but less hot and slightly faster than the last generation. That's a much better situation than the competition." That's exactly what their competition is already offering. Intel is late to that party and Meteor Lake underwhelmed. Intel is in fact saying Lunar Lake will not be enough to turn around the trends in mobile. That'll have to wait for Panther Lake next year.

7) Intel is being sued by shareholders for lying to them about the extent of financial/engineering problems that Intel was facing and may yet face class action lawsuits over the Intel 13th/14th gen issues. Depending on what happens with these lawsuits, this may be much, much more than a minor blip. Maybe it'll all blow over, but maybe not. But it is not "just social media panic". Investors are pissed and lawyers smell money - normally I'd be all about making fun of the "rational market" behaving erratically, but in this instance, the market has a point. There is actually good reason that Intel is the worst performing tech stock. Intel has major structural problems and has had for a long time. Which brings us to the final point:

8) The potential bursting of the AI market or even overall tech slowdown isn't what's killing the company's profits. Intel isn't being wise here or even really reacting to market conditions. Intel in the AI space is primarily a hardware company. Far from from retreating, if anything Intel is rhetorically doubling down on selling people on "AI" as the future of the company. Which to be fair makes a certain amount of sense as it's the AI hardware companies that are making the most amount of money right now and while Intel isn't making the revenue it had hoped, it's the fabs as a division that is losing all the money, not the products. While the products themselves are profitable, they can't offset the vast sums of money Intel is pumping into their fabs to try catch up to and surpass TSMC. As a result of this accelerated process, Intel also don't have the volume for their own chips never mind third party customers. That's why it had to pay TSMC for N3B access for Lunar Lake. So these new Intel fabs can't pay for themselves and won't for a while. They have been vocal about several high profile customers lined up for their foundry but without knowing what those customers will be manufacturing, on what node, in what volumes, one should be somewhat circumspect about gauging Intel-as-a-foundry's potential success. What we do know is that the when for any of these 3rd party foundry products isn't expected to be for another year at least and possibly longer still before Intel foundry products end up in customer hands. It took Intel a long time to dig this hole for themselves, it'll be awhile yet digging itself out. Plus, these cuts are going to be painful and potentially damaging to the company depending on what "wood" Intel chops - they're not just getting rid of the fresh fruit in the cafeteria.

Now does this mean Intel is doomed? Not necessarily. But the situation is not quite so rosy as portrayed in your posts.
 
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pshufd

macrumors G4
Original poster
Oct 24, 2013
10,145
14,571
New Hampshire
While the full impact of the Intel's 13th and 14th generation woes may be unknown, to describe them thus far as a minor blip would be premature at best. And in my opinion they are already more than that. Further I'd say that there is a lot of information in your post that is wrong, overly optimistic, or out of date.

1) There have been at least two problems with 13th and 14th gen processors. The first is the oxidation problem that you allude to as a function of Intel's manufacturing woes and to say "those issues can happen to anyone" is a little facile. They didn't happen to anyone, they happened to Intel. And they happened specifically because of Intel's attempt to rush through as many nodes as possible while still trying to produce their chips leading to bottlenecks during the production process leaving wafers out to oxidize. Intel is not communicating with customers which chips are affected by this and is just saying "some early 13th gen processors" without being specific. When you have competition, losing customer trust, including OEMs who have admitted that Intel has not been forthcoming on this issue even to them, isn't good.

2) The second, unrelated, problem is the design flaw in the microcode that allowed the chips to over-volt when already overheating. This doesn't just affect K and KS SKUs. Those are the most prevalently affected, but every desktop processor over 65W is at risk and has had its warranty extended. It's a fairly substantial portion of their desktop lineup.

3) In addition to servers based on these desktop chips, there have been allegations that some mobile chips may be affected as well. Intel admits that they have had reports of frequent crashes but claims that those problems are "different". Unclear if different is good however.

4) They are making it quite difficult for customers to make returns and basically said if you get rejected just keep trying. Many of the affected customers are business customers not just individual consumers. These are customers that buy thousands or more CPUs at a time. Again, losing the trust of those customers and having them buy AMD instead is obviously not good.

5) Low volume products are also high margin products as well as halo products. You can ask AMD how competing in graphics against Nvidia felt without such halos for multiple generations over the last decade. Competing in the low margin products doesn't give Intel the needed revenue to fund its fabs, which is actually why they are in such trouble, more on that later in point 8. Intel needs the halos and the high margins to fund itself, especially now.

6) "millions of corporate laptops exactly but less hot and slightly faster than the last generation. That's a much better situation than the competition." That's exactly what their competition is already offering. Intel is late to that party and Meteor Lake underwhelmed. Intel is in fact saying Lunar Lake will not be enough to turn around the trends in mobile. That'll have to wait for Panther Lake next year.

7) Intel is being sued by shareholders for lying to them about the extent of financial/engineering problems that Intel was facing and may yet face class action lawsuits over the Intel 13th/14th gen issues. Depending on what happens with these lawsuits, this may be much, much more than a minor blip. Maybe it'll all blow over, but maybe not. But it is not "just social media panic". Investors are pissed and lawyers smell money - normally I'd be all about making fun of the "rational market" behaving erratically, but in this instance, the market has a point. There is actually good reason that Intel is the worst performing tech stock. Intel has major structural problems and has had for a long time. Which brings us to the final point:

8) The potential bursting of the AI market or even overall tech slowdown isn't what's killing the company's profits. Intel isn't being wise here or even really reacting to market conditions. Intel in the AI space is primarily a hardware company. Far from from retreating, if anything Intel is rhetorically doubling down on selling people on "AI" as the future of the company. Which to be fair makes a certain amount of sense as it's the AI hardware companies that are making the most amount of money right now and while Intel isn't making the revenue it had hoped, it's the fabs as a division that is losing all the money, not the products. While the products themselves are profitable, they can't offset the vast sums of money Intel is pumping into their fabs to try catch up to and surpass TSMC. As a result of this accelerated process, Intel also don't have the volume for their own chips never mind third party customers. That's why it had to pay TSMC for N3B access for Lunar Lake. So these new Intel fabs can't pay for themselves and won't for a while. They have been vocal about several high profile customers lined up for their foundry but without knowing what those customers will be manufacturing, on what node, in what volumes, one should be somewhat circumspect about gauging Intel-as-a-foundry's potential success. What we do know is that the when for any of these 3rd party foundry products isn't expected to be for another year at least and possibly longer still before Intel foundry products end up in customer hands. It took Intel a long time to dig this hole for themselves, it'll be awhile yet digging itself out. Plus, these cuts are going to be painful and potentially damaging to the company depending on what "wood" Intel chops - they're not just getting rid of the fresh fruit in the cafeteria.

Now does this mean Intel is doomed? Not necessarily. But the situation is not quite so rosy as portrayed in your posts.

The last time I had an Intel-related recall was back around 2010. I had just built a Sandy Bridge desktop and then there was news of a chipset bug which would damage the SATA ports over time. The process was to take the system apart, return the motherboard and they'd send me a new motherboard and I'd have to reassemble the system. This was my first build from scratch and I was out my system for a few weeks and I also had to buy another tube of thermal paste.

I'm no longer an early adopter. I waited quite some time after the chips and motherboards were out before doing my i7-10700 build.

I note that they consider the 13500 and 13700 high voltage parts which is surprise to me. I did a 10700 build for a system that didn't use a lot of power and that ran cool and quiet and the system does run cool and quiet. My guess is that the K versions used a lot of power, not the SKUs without suffixes.

I'm going to skip 13th and 14th gen. The next gen which is supposed to lower power consumption may be worth considering. The new AMD processors apparently were designed more for efficiency than performance and it appears that many customers don't like that approach. It's exactly the approach I prefer.
 
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crazy dave

macrumors 65816
Sep 9, 2010
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The new AMD processors apparently were designed more for efficiency than performance and it appears that many customers don't like that approach. It's exactly the approach I prefer.

Completely agree! But then that sort of preference is maybe why you and I are both here on a Macforum ... :)

Anyway, AMD might go a different route for their higher end chips but, yes, I like that they prioritized efficiency this round for at least these chips. Someone had to reign power budgets in, it was starting to get to the point where you could legitimately measure energy usage of some of these processors in horse power ... not to mention all the problems pushing the power envelope was causing both chipmakers, but especially Intel ... which I suppose we did mention already since that was the point of this thread!
 
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headlessmike

macrumors 65816
May 16, 2017
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Completely agree! But then that sort of preference is maybe why you and I are both here on a Macforum ... :)

Anyway, AMD might go a different route for their higher end chips but, yes, I like that they prioritized efficiency this round for at least these chips. Someone had to reign power budgets in, it was starting to get to the point where you could legitimately measure energy usage of some of these processors in horse power ... not to mention all the problems pushing the power envelope was causing both chipmakers, but especially Intel ... which I suppose we did mention already since that was the point of this thread!
Measuring power draw in horsepower would be fun. Depending on the definition, 1 hp is about 740 W, which is well below the power consumption of decked out gaming PCs. The M4 iPad Pro uses about 0.004 hp on average (for the whole device assuming a 10 hour battery life). It's incredible what kind of performance we are getting out of these chips considering the power they need. I agree that AMD did the right thing.
 

iPadified

macrumors 68020
Apr 25, 2017
2,014
2,257
It started long before 13 or 14 series... Apple wanted to give customers a pleasant package with decent performance, low noise levels, easy to carry laptops or easy to place desktops. Intel/AMD/NVIDIA have through at least two decades prioritised performance over everything else which is not compatible with the rest of the "Apple" package.

I hope the new mini will be completely passively cooled like the impressive MB Air. That would be a statement.
 

JouniS

macrumors 6502a
Nov 22, 2020
638
399
It started long before 13 or 14 series... Apple wanted to give customers a pleasant package with decent performance, low noise levels, easy to carry laptops or easy to place desktops. Intel/AMD/NVIDIA have through at least two decades prioritised performance over everything else which is not compatible with the rest of the "Apple" package.
Some of the issues with Intel Macs were self-inflicted. For example, touchbar-era MBPs prioritized aesthetics over noise levels and user experience. The same hardware would have worked better in the current MBP form factor.

Or consider the final 27" iMacs, which had loud angry-sounding fans under load. But at that point, Apple had already made the iMac Pro, which was reasonably quiet while using more power-hungry components in the same form factor.
 

Velli

macrumors 65816
Feb 1, 2013
1,315
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I'm from Sweden and usually think of "Made in Japan" and "Made in Germany" as high quality when it comes to engineered products. I also like the occasional "Made in Italy/France/Spain" for certain items...
What countries are 'green flags' vs 'red flags' for you?
For me personally, I don't actually base my decisions based on the actual place of manufacture, but on the merits of the company. The origins of said company is more of an afterthought to me. I look at the brands I have trust in, and most of them are European - Apple is an outlier. But, I would never trust a product simply based on the country of either design or manufacture. Generally my favourite brands are German and Japanese, that doesn't mean I automatically trust German or Japanese products.
 
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Velli

macrumors 65816
Feb 1, 2013
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Well, if you are using Apple products?
Not good enough quality as they are made in China? 😏
Or, maybe Volvos too?
Apple is proof that good quality can be made in China. It is NOT proof that this is usually the case.

No country makes only good or only bad products. I think it is fair to say that the average quality of products from any given country follows the paychecks. If quality of the product isn't important, you make them the cheapest place. If you are not the cheapest place, you by definition have to (try to) focus on high quality products (doesn't mean you are guaranteed success!). This doesn't mean that higher pay guarantees good quality. You can make good products in low wage areas, and you can make bad products in high wage areas. But, taken as an average of the whole, there is a link between the two.

As such, yes "Made in USA" is more likely to be higher quality than "Made in China", if you don't have any other information to go by. But it's still below average, once you bring in Europe and Japan (and, honestly, by now also Korea, which may be hard to swallow for some).
 

Populus

macrumors 603
Aug 24, 2012
5,928
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It started long before 13 or 14 series... Apple wanted to give customers a pleasant package with decent performance, low noise levels, easy to carry laptops or easy to place desktops. Intel/AMD/NVIDIA have through at least two decades prioritised performance over everything else which is not compatible with the rest of the "Apple" package.

I hope the new mini will be completely passively cooled like the impressive MB Air. That would be a statement.
I think, from my humble opinion, that for the M4 chip, a good dissipation system using the aluminum shell could be enough, although putting a small and silent fan that is triggered only when temperatures are high could help. On the M4 Pro however, I think a good active cooling system is a must.
 

okkibs

macrumors 65816
Sep 17, 2022
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Apple has dodged not just this Intel bullet, but probably many more and dodged them very late. What I mean is that starting with the 2012 MacbookPro series I had serious issues with the Intel integrated graphics drivers that I was forced to rely on because in Summer with the Nvidia dedicated graphics active the fans were too loud all the time, so I forced it to remain on the iGPU. Crash after crash of the Intel OSX graphics driver leading to a machine that was fully responsive and working fine reacting to keyboard inputs. The display remained frozen in place. Apple never found a hardware issue because there was none.

I have had all of my Intel Macbooks crash on me semi regularly, the 2020 Intel was the least crashing but even that one I could get to kernel panic sometimes. No idea if it's due to Intel to be fair, but the fact is that the moment I switched to M1 end of 2020 all my crashing problems were magically gone and I have upgraded to M1 Max since and in those 3 years I have not had a single kernel panic or crash, be it from graphics or anything else. Using the same software and doing the same work on it of course.

So the hard reality is that Intel Macs were flawed. Less and less so in recent years but they were inherently flawed. I could get it to crash with 0 third party apps installed, merely by using Final Cut Pro too heavily. To this day in 2024, the M1 Max still handles it all flawlessly. So much so that my 3 year old Macbook now still is better for me than virtually all brand new Windows laptops of 2024 (whether with Intel or AMD or the trash that's those new ARM based "elite" (lol...)).

Now Apple does suck sometimes, not everything they invent is as good or even good at all. Their butterfly Macbook keyboards were horrible and I was affected by that too and upset with Apple for it. But transitioning to M1 is the best thing Apple ever did for the Mac, period.

Apple wanted to give customers a pleasant package
Apple wanted to reduce costs, solidify their supply chain control and overall future as the high-tech company they are, and increase profits. They just so happen to actually make incredibly good products that did benefit from this switch to M1 a lot. But let's not pretend Apple foremost has the customer in mind here. Their mindset is that they'll do what they'll do and make customers love it regardless. Sometimes it doesn't work out, like with the butterfly keyboards.

The Apple engineers certainly want to make the best possible product they can, so you could sort of translate that to wanting to give customers a pleasant package. But they on their own aren't the brand, and the Apple brand altogether really does not care too much about how pleasant their customers have it, evident through various business practices that do not benefit their customers and actually hurt them.

I am not going into the politics and it's not allowed here anyways, and I do love Apple and use at least one device of each of their products on a daily basis, so I am the last one to recommend against Apple products, I recommend them a lot, but not once have I ever thought that they care about me the customer. If their products didn't work so incredibly well they'd be indistinguishable from a brand like Microsoft or Lenovo.
 
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quarkysg

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Oct 12, 2019
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Apple wanted to reduce costs, solidify their supply chain control and overall future as the high-tech company they are, and increase profits.
I don’t think funding SoC development is cheaper than buying ready processors and GPUs in the market. Main reason I think is because what is available in the market are not suitable for what Apple intends to build.
 
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okkibs

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I don’t think funding SoC development is cheaper than buying ready processors and GPUs in the market. Main reason I think is because what is available in the market are not suitable for what Apple intends to build.
I am sure both are reasons, but Apple is thinking long-term, they are making decisions now that might not see an effect until the 2030s. The first thing Apple did when the M1 Macs came out was reduce prices considerably. And their products' pricing includes development costs. Not having to pay Intel anymore for sure freed up a large amount of their budget and funding SoC development will be cheaper because instead of funding a third party they now got the knowledge and experience in-house. And they were doing it for the iPhone/iPad/.. SoCs already anyways. The M1 chip was a beefed up iPhone chip after all.

So switching from both in-house and third party development to just in-house certainly reduces costs.
 
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chmania

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Apple wanted to reduce costs, solidify their supply chain control and overall future as the high-tech company they are, and increase profits. They just so happen to actually make incredibly good products...
It is not Apple that makes the products, but the Chinese companies.
But let's not pretend Apple foremost has the customer in mind here. Their mindset is that they'll do what they'll do and make customers love it regardless.
One of the reasons, why Apple is getting hit in the EU.
I recommend them a lot, but not once have I ever thought that they care about me the customer. If their products didn't work so incredibly well they'd be indistinguishable from a brand like Microsoft or Lenovo.
Lenovo is the overall market leader in computers and Microsoft is overall market leader in operating systems. China is the overall computing device manufacturing leader in the world.
 

okkibs

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It is not Apple that makes the products, but the Chinese companies.
Look at what cloned Apple products look like that they try to clone as closely as possible. They can't pull anything off remotely close to Apple even if you give them the finished Apple product to take a part and inspect. Apple makes these products. The factories have been instructed by Apple and have by now built up their own expertise but it all belongs to Apple. If Apple wanted to stop producing their products in China from one day to the next then not a single Apple product would be able to leave the factory even if they removed all the visible Apple logos from everything and they ignored the legal situation.

Just the firmware and software alone that is required for these devices to turn on would no longer be accessible let alone considering Apple's ability to remotely brick devices.

China is high quality labor but that's what it is. Apple already shifted production partly to Vietnam which means the Macbook Air I am typing on currently isn't even Made In China anymore, it came from a flight originating from Hanoi's airport (BTO config).

Obviously I am not saying manufacturing isn't done in China, but when you ask someone who made that laptop, who made these headphones, who made those smartphones, you'd say Apple.

Lenovo is the overall market leader in computers and Microsoft is overall market leader in operating systems.
Yet I avoid using Windows 11 at all costs and am very happy with MacOS. Most people use Windows because they don't even get the idea to try a Mac. Lenovo would for be the next best hardware manufacturer in my opinion but it's trailing behind Apple. Buy a Lenovo laptop now and between the terrible docks, defective UEFI out of the box, and various smaller issues depending on the model you will quickly see that Apple is still lightyears ahead. And especially with the Macbooks, the moment they slot in the M4 into those and switch them to Tandem OLED the competition can pack it up and share a ride home.
 
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chmania

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China is high quality labor but that's what it is.
If that's what the majority think across the Big Pond, then China is winning in the game. 😊
Yet I avoid using Windows 11 at all costs and am very happy with MacOS. Most people use Windows because they don't even get the idea to try a Mac. Lenovo would for be the next best hardware manufacturer in my opinion but it's trailing behind Apple.
I've used Windows, Linux and now macOS (and also iOS). None of the OSs is better than the other, maybe Linux. After coming from Linux, I can feel how oldish macOS is.

Anyway, that's not the case here. It's about Apple dodging Intel. Even though Apple has gone ARM way, it is still in the experimental stage, 4 years is not that long. Let's see how far Apple would go along this ARM, or at sometime in the future would come back to Intel and AMD. All, Intel (or AMD) has to do is create new chips, not to manufacture mobile phones, tablets or computers. So, both companies are surely going to succeed. TSMC appears to be the only chip manufacturer for Apple, which is not a very good business strategy, as there's no plan B. It is usually said that there are 3 big names in chip production, Samsung, Nvidia and TSMC. But, we don't really know how many China really has.
 

pshufd

macrumors G4
Original poster
Oct 24, 2013
10,145
14,571
New Hampshire
If that's what the majority think across the Big Pond, then China is winning in the game. 😊

I've used Windows, Linux and now macOS (and also iOS). None of the OSs is better than the other, maybe Linux. After coming from Linux, I can feel how oldish macOS is.

Anyway, that's not the case here. It's about Apple dodging Intel. Even though Apple has gone ARM way, it is still in the experimental stage, 4 years is not that long. Let's see how far Apple would go along this ARM, or at sometime in the future would come back to Intel and AMD. All, Intel (or AMD) has to do is create new chips, not to manufacture mobile phones, tablets or computers. So, both companies are surely going to succeed. TSMC appears to be the only chip manufacturer for Apple, which is not a very good business strategy, as there's no plan B. It is usually said that there are 3 big names in chip production, Samsung, Nvidia and TSMC. But, we don't really know how many China really has.

We'd need to see Intel and AMD beat ARM on performance per watt and I don't know that that's possible given the decoder overhead of x86.

I'm typing on an iMac Pro and I really like this machine. I just bought it two weeks ago and I prefer using it to my Mac Studio for office stuff because of the display. Performance is comparable to the M1 mini but this machine was $5k new.
 

Mac_fan75

macrumors member
Jun 1, 2023
66
95
The Intel 13xxx and 14xxx mess seems to be currently dogging Intel. I just watched Hardware Unboxed and they can't recommend these processors now. Gamer's Nexus has done a series on these processors and Intel hasn't really come clean on the problem, resolution or recall. HU said that some server farms are replacing their Intel servers with AMD servers.
It's not about that anyways, those chips are not in laptop's so no real bullet dodged.. Beside that Apple went this one primarily because performance per watt which sucks with Intel for a while now, might be better with the next gen.
 

chmania

macrumors 65816
Dec 2, 2023
1,066
1,609
M1.jpg
M2.jpg

The M chip is on the left, and the RAM chips are on the right, not exactly in the M chip, but sitting next to.
The "unified" memory is sort of glued by the side.
 
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iPadified

macrumors 68020
Apr 25, 2017
2,014
2,257
Some of the issues with Intel Macs were self-inflicted. For example, touchbar-era MBPs prioritized aesthetics over noise levels and user experience. The same hardware would have worked better in the current MBP form factor.

Or consider the final 27" iMacs, which had loud angry-sounding fans under load. But at that point, Apple had already made the iMac Pro, which was reasonably quiet while using more power-hungry components in the same form factor.
Exactly my point - the engineering work arounds were not pleasant. Without Ives thinning obsession, we would not have ASi. If you go for looks, the touch bar MBP looks sleek, efficient and futuristic while the Mx MBP looks more ordinary.

Why the last iMac did not get the cooling system of iMac Pro is an enigma. Too expensive probably and another irritating workaround.
 

theorist9

macrumors 68040
May 28, 2015
3,880
3,059
Why the last iMac did not get the cooling system of iMac Pro is an enigma. Too expensive probably and another irritating workaround.
The final 27" Intel iMac design, the Retina iMac, ran from late 2014–2020. The iMac Pro wasn't introduced until late 2017, so I can understand why they didn't want to redesign the Retina iMac at that time.

But what I can't understand is why they didn't give the 27" Retina iMac a better cooling system to start with. Apple understands the value of keeping noise levels low, and they knew the single-fan design wasn't sufficient to cool the iMac under heavy load without being loud. The added expense of a second fan, some extra plastic ducting, and a larger heatsink would have been small, and would have required only a small increase in case thickness. All of this could have been easily accommodated within a desktop AIO design, as evidenced by the iMac Pro. I think this was a design failure on Apple's part.

To those who want to suggest that maybe Apple designed the 27" Retina iMac to operate quietly with the chips it originally came with, but didn't anticipate a subsequent increase in thermal output: That's not what happened here. The max thermal output of the first 27" Retina iMac was 983 BTU/h. That was greater than that of any subsequent iMac except for the 2020 10-core i9, and even that one was only marginally (2.4%) higher: 1,007 BTU/h. So if they had simply designed the 27" Retina iMac to operate quietly with the Y1 chipset, it would have been quiet for all subsequent model years.

 
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