Apple Tweaks EU Core Technology Fee to Avoid Bankrupting Unexpectedly Viral Apps

[Snahbah]

As a consumer, you are not directly paying Apple to install apps on your iOS devices. Instead, developers are paying Apple to engage in commercial business on their platform.

A more analogues set of rhetorical questions are: what if sellers had to pay Amazon to sell products on Amazon.com, or if labels had to pay to distribute their songs on Spotify? These analogies help illustrate the relationship between Apple and app developers.

You're looking at this rather strangely – it's not their platform. If I pay £1500 for a phone (or a computer) it stands to rights that the device is now mine. Why should I have to pay directly, or indirectly, for the privilege of installing software on hardware I own. Thankfully the EU won't put up with this nonsense.

 

[SanderEvers]

And if I host my own iPhone application on a server that I own that goes through the connection I own and uses my bandwidth, I still need to pay Apple their cut for what exactly? And I mean the cut that exists beyond the separate $99/fee.

And if Apple would stop developing iPhone or iOS your App would become entirely useless. Since they own the platform you chose to develop for.

 

[dumastudetto]

And do what exactly?

The EU needs to get out of the way and let Apple make its own decisions for the good of all of us. That freedom has served us well to this point.

 

[Mailia]

And if Apple would stop developing iPhone or iOS your App would become entirely useless. Since they own the platform you chose to develop for.

Oh yeah, that is totally a realistic vision of the future: Apple stopping the development of the iPhone or iOS.

I guess this is also why I should pay your ISP for my web store, since if I don't give them money, they have zero incentive to give you access to the Internet.

And there's absolutely no way Apple would ever decide to make a bunch of apps entirely useless.

 

[SanderEvers]

Oh yeah, that is totally a realistic vision of the future: Apple stopping the development of the iPhone or iOS.

I guess this is also why I should pay your ISP for my web store, since if I don't give them money, they have zero incentive to give you access to the Internet.

And actually the EU is working on legislation to basically do that for major platforms as well (Youtube, Netflix and others) requiring them to pay a fee to all ISPs because they use 'a lot of bandwidth'.

Also if Apple is unable to make any money off of iOS than there would actually be a very reasonable choice for them to stop developing iOS.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

Because of the increased potential for piracy

Sorry but that’s extremely easy to do.

My opinion is this: either the EU should accept some form of a fee like this OR the prices of iPhones and iPads go up €100 this year.

Either way Apple’s gonna get their money. That’s how Tim Cook works.

Or Apple will be forced to produce a list explicitly detailing what the CTF is supposedly paying for.

Certainly you’re not arguing the EU has the power to ban the CTF and place a cap on how much Apple can charge for their products, right?

If that’s the case I’d like a Michelin-starred restaurant dinner for 5 euros please.

EU absolutely can do that that.

Apple claims the CTF pays for some arbitrary ill defined technology that they provide. So at worst for Apple they might be forced to list what IP developers pay for as included in the membership agreement. What IP is payed and provided by the consumer who owns the device running the software.

And what IP the CTF covers that isn’t already payed for. This could expose a lot of apples IP to be invalidated.

 

[wilhoitm]

Developers don't have to pay Microsoft anything to write and distribute their own software for Windows

And it shows! 😂 Windows is the Siri of Operating Systems!

 

[dumastudetto]

And it shows! 😂 Windows is the Siri of Operating Systems!

Siri isn't that bad.

 

[Contact_Feanor]

Sorry but that’s extremely easy to do.

This seems to be a non sequitur.

 

[Snahbah]

Well nobody is forcing Apple to sell in EU. It’s their market their rules.

Not how a public company works. If Tim Cook decided to leave the EU, he – and anyone on the board that backed him – would be removed from their positions within the day. Shareholders would not allow a revenue hit of that magnitude to ever happens. Tim Cook has a boss.

 

[Haiku_Oezu]

Now that’s more like it

Still wish I could just smash an ipa on my iPhone tho

 

[Contact_Feanor]

You're looking at this rather strangely – it's not their platform. If I pay £1500 for a phone (or a computer) it stands to rights that the device is now mine. Why should I have to pay directly, or indirectly, for the privilege of installing software on hardware I own. Thankfully the EU won't put up with this nonsense.

You payed for the phone. The physical hardware. You own that. Congratulations. If you can install some random OS on it, you're welcome to do so. Apple isn't under any obligation to help you with that however because...
They gave you a license to their own software for that phone. If you want to use that software and the numerous software updates you're receiving over the course of the lifespan of the phone, you're to abide by the license, ergo, install what you're allowed to.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

And sadly the EU is forcing me to live to their rules unless I either migrate to a different country, or vote for my country to leave the EU. I really don't have a choice.

Your country chose to join. That’s democracy, if you don’t like it you can always vote to leave or influence your politicians. You always have a choice.

And if Apple would stop developing iPhone or iOS your App would become entirely useless. Since they own the platform you chose to develop for.

So Apple is double dipping. The consumer pays for their device and for the privilege of using apps.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

This seems to be a non sequitur.

Well it’s currently extremely easy to pirate iOS apps. The DMA doesn’t impact that. It’s apple failure in implementing a suboptimal DRM protection.

Not how a public company works. If Tim Cook decided to leave the EU, he – and anyone on the board that backed him – would be removed from their positions within the day. Shareholders would not allow a revenue hit of that magnitude to ever happens. Tim Cook has a boss.

Indeed and I completely agree with you.

You payed for the phone. The physical hardware. You own that. Congratulations. If you can install some random OS on it, you're welcome to do so. Apple isn't under any obligation to help you with that however because...
They gave you a license to their own software for that phone. If you want to use that software and the numerous software updates you're receiving over the course of the lifespan of the phone, you're to abide by the license, ergo, install what you're allowed to.

There currently nothing supporting Apple bogus claims about licensing it.

Under most jurisdictions it fails under contract rules by not being signed before the transaction is complete.

And a license that doesn’t have an expiration period is considered as a transaction of ownership and sale, not a license.

 

[TigerNike23]

Sorry but that’s extremely easy to do.

Or Apple will be forced to produce a list explicitly detailing what the CTF is supposedly paying for.

EU absolutely can do that that.

Apple claims the CTF pays for some arbitrary ill defined technology that they provide. So at worst for Apple they might be forced to list what IP developers pay for as included in the membership agreement. What IP is payed and provided by the consumer who owns the device running the software.

And what IP the CTF covers that isn’t already payed for. This could expose a lot of apples IP to be invalidated.

Apple should break it down for the EU. And frankly I think every government should show a pie chart of where every dollar/pound/euro goes with taxes and fees. I think that’s a good thing for the taxpayer and/or consumer.

I’m absolutely not in favor of price controls for consumer electronics, frankly I think that’s a ridiculous request which illustrates the relative lack of understanding of current issues facing everyday people.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

Apple should break it down for the EU. And frankly I think every government should show a pie chart of where every dollar/pound/euro goes with taxes and fees. I think that’s a good thing for the taxpayer and/or consumer.

I’m absolutely not in favor of price controls for consumer electronics, frankly I think that’s a ridiculous request which illustrates the relative lack of understanding of current issues facing everyday people.

Indeed, I’m not in favor of price control. But it’s more that Apple would illegally taking a fee for something they:
1: don’t own the Ip
2: already been paid for and therefore can’t ask for the same compensation twice
3: is asking to be paid for a service they don’t provide.

 

[ghanwani]

How did the bean counters screw this up to begin with?

 

[AppliedMicro]

NOBODY is forcing you to pick either Google or Apple. On Android you can chose to use the open soruce android using the Android Open Source Project (AOSP) see: https://source.android.com/ and if you don't want android at all you can always make or use a Linux phone.

People need smartphones. And they need smartphone apps.
Not as in for survival - but as in functioning and socialising in modern society.
And that includes commercial apps that are only distributed by the Play Store and the App Store.

I think it's really strange that the EU can basically say: "Thank you, Apple / Google for developing iOS / Androd. BTW. we own your system now. And if you don't listen to us, we'll fine you."

The EU has never made a claim on "owning" iOS or the App Store.
They've just enacted some rules of conduct to prevent those gatekeepers from exploiting them as de facto monopolies.

 

[AppliedMicro]

If I sell goods online, should I also pay your Internet service provider a part of my income because I'm making money off their infra?

I'm not sure the EU cares about you.

But if Apple sell goods online, why shouldn't they pay European internet services providers a part of their income because they're making money off of their instrastructure?

If you sell goods online you do so on a webstore based platform. This is either hosted by yourself. Which means you pay your own ISP for the bandwith and connection, hosted by a cloud platform which you pay directly, or hosted by a third party webstore. WHICH ALL REQUIRE A FEE TO SELL STUFF ON THEIR PLATFORM!

You have to pay in order to be able to sell stuff. This is nothing new, and has been from the invention of money. (

...and if you or (wanna-be) competing store operators set up their own store platform - cause the underlying (OS) platform providers (AKA gatekeepers) won't allow them - and when those two gatekeepers control the virtually all of the distribution of important goods/services in a whole country (or in this case even larger economic are), governments and regulators will step in to prevent them from abusing their monopoly power.

This is nothing new and has been from the invention of competition law, basically.

 

[Contact_Feanor]

Well it’s currently extremely easy to pirate iOS apps. The DMA doesn’t impact that. It’s apple failure in implementing a suboptimal DRM protection.

Indeed and I completely agree with you.

There currently nothing supporting Apple bogus claims about licensing it.

Under most jurisdictions it fails under contract rules by not being signed before the transaction is complete.

And a license that doesn’t have an expiration period is considered as a transaction of ownership and sale, not a license.

Do you have anything to back up your claim about it being easy to pirate iOS apps? And anything about pirated software being installed en masse on iOS? Because that tanks the whole argument in the first place. “Apple makes it impossible to install whatever I want” and “there’s rampant piracy on the platform” seem to be in direct opposition of each other.

Besides that, the legal license stuff might be true or not? I doubt anyone knows contract rules of “most jurisdictions”. So excuse me for not just taking your word for it. Even legal scholars seldomly know more than just a handful of jurisdiction rules.

 

[Plutonius]

Well, that’s an improvement. But the fact that they didn’t include this from the beginning shows that Apple is either stupefyingly myopic and disconnected from their developer base, or that they just try and see if they get a pass.

In the art of negotiation, you never start out with your best offer.

 

[Plutonius]

Not how a public company works. If Tim Cook decided to leave the EU, he – and anyone on the board that backed him – would be removed from their positions within the day. Shareholders would not allow a revenue hit of that magnitude to ever happens. Tim Cook has a boss.

It depends on how much money the market is making. There becomes a break even point.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

My prediction of the likelihood of a small EU developer’s (let’s say < 100,000 money units) app going viral.

Zero percent.

I understand how it “looks better” that they’re going to give them a free ride for three years. But, understand, they will be giving ABSOLUTELY no one a free ride for three years. Because, no small developer is going to see that kind of success. And, in the EU, if they DO see that kind of success, then they’re a gatekeeper, so… better be prepared to allow all other app developers to sell the same application.

 

[!!!]

Makes sense . And if anything it’ll encourage / foster young, new, developers to continue to develop interesting apps

No it won't. All this garbage you need to do just to be able to get an app to run on your iPhone is ridiculous. I had zero problems getting an app to run on my Mac, yet when I first got an iPhone and tried to develop something, I gave up. I kept coming back wondering if they fixed it so that I, the owner of the device, could just run my own program on it. You can't, unless you want to pay $100/year and deal with all that stuff. You're supposed to be able to run your own app using a free, temporary certificate (where you need to keep re-signing it every so long), yet that doesn't even work.

Meanwhile I click a button and out pops a working macOS app that just runs, maybe a warning on other Macs due to the lack of signing, but whatever.

Apple is going to kill its platform. No one I know even bothers trying to make a mobile app.

 

[hans1972]

Imagine you’d have to pay Apple money to install an app on your Mac from some website.

That would be a good thing since it would put pressure on developers to put the application in the Mac App Store to avoid it.