Are yearly M-series refreshes a success?

[dmccloud]

A reasonable update cycle would be 1-2 updates every year. That means refreshing the hardware every time a new SoC is released or when third-party components (RAM, SSD, display, etc.) become better/cheaper.

I usually keep my Macs 5+ years, but I try to avoid models that are older than 6 months, because old hardware tends to be poor value for money. The moment I update is often beyond my control, which means that a 18-month or 24-month cycle would usually force me to buy obsolete hardware if I want to continue using a Mac.

The only reason the Windows side updates their machines 2-3 times a year is to generate sales. If you walk into Best Buy today and compare the laptops currently on sale to what will be on sale in August when back to school season starts, you will see that the model numbers will be different, but internally there really won't be much difference between the models. There really is no need to refresh hardware that often from a performance perspective. Even if RAM costs were to drop, a manufacturer would need to use up their existing inventory of RAM first before they could start putting less expensive sticks in their machines. Hardware doesn't go obsolete in six months, let alone 18-24 months.

 

[JouniS]

The only reason the Windows side updates their machines 2-3 times a year is to generate sales. If you walk into Best Buy today and compare the laptops currently on sale to what will be on sale in August when back to school season starts, you will see that the model numbers will be different, but internally there really won't be much difference between the models. There really is no need to refresh hardware that often from a performance perspective. Even if RAM costs were to drop, a manufacturer would need to use up their existing inventory of RAM first before they could start putting less expensive sticks in their machines. Hardware doesn't go obsolete in six months, let alone 18-24 months.

If CPU, GPU, RAM, SSD, and display each update independently according to their own cycles, the chances are at least one of the components is obsolete after 6 months.

One of the most common reasons for buying a new computer is because the old one is no longer good enough. If you buy a computer with obsolete components, you may have to buy a new one sooner than if you had bought the latest components.

 

[dmccloud]

If CPU, GPU, RAM, SSD, and display each update independently according to their own cycles, the chances are at least one of the components is obsolete after 6 months.

One of the most common reasons for buying a new computer is because the old one is no longer good enough. If you buy a computer with obsolete components, you may have to buy a new one sooner than if you had bought the latest components.

Intel refreshes their CPUs annually, but AMD is more of an 18-24 month cycle. AMD also sticks to a platform (socket) for longer than Intel, so there is more stability overall on that side. SSDs, RAM, and displays don't see major changes all that often, so generally nothing is obsolete within six months unless you believe the BS Intel, HP, etc. try to shove down our throats as fact. The Ryzen 7000 series is AMDs first AM5 series of CPUs, but that did not make the 500 series and AM4 obsolete overnight. Furthermore, since Intel supports both DDR4 and DDR5 with their 12th and 13th gen Core CPUs, that likewise did not make DDR 4 obsolete overnight either. Displays update the slowest out of everything, because it takes a while to get newer display technology to the point where a) the overall costs drop and b) the display technology itself can be downsized to fit a monitor versus a 50" or larger television screen.

 

[JouniS]

Intel refreshes their CPUs annually, but AMD is more of an 18-24 month cycle. AMD also sticks to a platform (socket) for longer than Intel, so there is more stability overall on that side. SSDs, RAM, and displays don't see major changes all that often, so generally nothing is obsolete within six months unless you believe the BS Intel, HP, etc. try to shove down our throats as fact. The Ryzen 7000 series is AMDs first AM5 series of CPUs, but that did not make the 500 series and AM4 obsolete overnight. Furthermore, since Intel supports both DDR4 and DDR5 with their 12th and 13th gen Core CPUs, that likewise did not make DDR 4 obsolete overnight either. Displays update the slowest out of everything, because it takes a while to get newer display technology to the point where a) the overall costs drop and b) the display technology itself can be downsized to fit a monitor versus a 50" or larger television screen.

Obsolete means not worth buying anymore, at least not for the old price.

CPUs and GPUs refresh on separate cycles. If you wait for 12 months, there are usually better options available for at least one of them.

The time between LPDDR generations has been 2-3 years. If your refresh cycle is 18-24 months, there is a nontrivial chance that a new generation of RAM becomes available in that price category mid-cycle.

When I bought SSDs to my NAS in 2019, 2 TB drives were available but expensive. When I upgraded my gaming PC in 2020, they had become cheap. Today you can get PCIe4 drives for a lower price than what I paid for a PCIe3 drive in 2020. Again, with a 18-24 month refresh cycle, there is a real chance of better hardware becoming available mid-cycle.

Before covid, new postdocs got 24" monitors in the place I work at. Today I'm seeing new people having a mix of 32" 16:9 monitors and 34" 21:9 monitors. That's a big change in a few years. (And I guess that's why Apple canceled the larger iMac. A 27" display is no longer that impressive, while their resolution/quality requirements would make competitive display sizes too expensive for consumers.)

 

[senttoschool]

Now with sidecar, handoff, etc. why not make the iPhone a programmable touch panel for the Mac, so you could use it much like the TB.

Same reason why people disliked the touch bar. People who have complicated workflows that could benefit from having the iPhone as a touch panel could do the same tasks faster via keyboard shortcuts.

The TB was designed for casuals looking at Macs at the Apple Stores and Apple tried to sell it to the pros, who found it more annoying than helpful.

 

[jlc1978]

Same reason why people disliked the touch bar. People who have complicated workflows that could benefit from having the iPhone as a touch panel could do the same tasks faster via keyboard shortcuts.

I think it would depend on the workflow and is more a matter of what you are used to rather than either having an inherent better way of doing things.

At any rate, having it as an option doesn't prevent someone from using function keys and adds another way to get thigs done.

Personally, I dislike having to hit ctrl-cmd-whatever to do something, which is why I have a multi-button mouse programed for the most common ones I use. An iPhone interface would be useful, to me, and I suspect others as well.

The TB was designed for casuals looking at Macs at the Apple Stores and Apple tried to sell it to the pros, who found it more annoying than helpful.

o me it seemed another example of Apple tryng something new to see how it worked.

 

[senttoschool]

o me it seemed another example of Apple tryng something new to see how it worked.

Doesn't seem like something Apple would do. They release finished features, unlike other tech companies.

 

[jlc1978]

Doesn't seem like something Apple would do. They release finished features, unlike other tech companies.

Yea, but sometime it seems like what Apple thinks is finished and what user think finished is are a bit divergent.

 

[JiggyJaggy]

I would say they are a huge success, just look at the leap in performance from the Intel models. M series has really set Apple ahead of the rest again.

 

[Longplays]

I believe Apple's aiming to shorten the Mac chip refresh cycle (Nov 2020 to June 2022) from 19.5 months to 12 months just like the iPhone chips so that their cores and die shrinks align.

Doing this simplifies supply chain and cost.

If left unchanged the 3nm M3 would be out by February 2024 & 2nm M4 be out by September 2025 at a cycle of 19.5 months.

 

[AppliedMicro]

Obsolete means not worth buying anymore, at least not for the old price.

Obsolete actually means not worth using anymore.

I would certainly not call 6 months old computer components or Macs „obsolete“. And neither would Apple. They do use that term - but only years after first release of a product.

 

[nquinn]

Obsolete actually means not worth using anymore.

I would certainly not call 6 months old computer components or Macs „obsolete“. And neither would Apple. They do use that term - but only years after first release of a product.

At this point even the M1 chips won't be obsolete for 7-10 years. They are more than enough for web/office work.

 

[JouniS]

Obsolete actually means not worth using anymore.

In that sense, computers don't really go obsolete anymore, and they haven't done so in a long time. If you bought a half-decent computer in 2010 (and not just something that was barely good enough for your needs), it probably remained useful until the hardware started failing or the vendor stopped providing security updates.

 

[The point and shoot pro]

At this point even the M1 chips won't be obsolete for 7-10 years. They are more than enough for web/office work.

Without a doubt, but they will be put to pasture by apple long before that. 5 years, no OS updates, 6 years, no other software support, apps and functions stop working and it's no longer able to be used. Environmentally friendly...yah right.

Apple should let the user decide when to stop using their computers, not apple decide for them. If I buy a new M2 MBP, If I want to use it for 10 years with full OS updates I should be able to. My 2007 acer is on current windows 10, (yes I know MS changed their coding for 11 but windows 10 is still getting full updates at this present time), I should be able to do the same thing on my Mac.

 

[The point and shoot pro]

In that sense, computers don't really go obsolete anymore, and they haven't done so in a long time. If you bought a half-decent computer in 2010 (and not just something that was barely good enough for your needs), it probably remained useful until the hardware started failing or the vendor stopped providing security updates.

This is the issue. Your first sentence is correct. The highlighted part is the issue. Vendors need to provide full updates until the USER wants to stop using the machine and upgrade.

 

[leman]

Without a doubt, but they will be put to pasture by apple long before that. 5 years, no OS updates, 6 years, no other software support, apps and functions stop working and it's no longer able to be used. Environmentally friendly...yah right.

Apple should let the user decide when to stop using their computers, not apple decide for them. If I buy a new M2 MBP, If I want to use it for 10 years with full OS updates I should be able to. My 2007 acer is on current windows 10, (yes I know MS changed their coding for 11 but windows 10 is still getting full updates at this present time), I should be able to do the same thing on my Mac.

How much are you willing to pay for it? Because I certainly am in no mood to pay extra so that you can enjoy your obsolete hardware longer.

 

[jlc1978]

Without a doubt, but they will be put to pasture by apple long before that. 5 years, no OS updates, 6 years, no other software support, apps and functions stop working and it's no longer able to be used. Environmentally friendly...yah right.

Until the hardware dies, you still have the full functionality you had, as long as you keep the last supported configuration. I have vintage Apple computers that still run fine, on OS long since EOL'd by Apple.

At some point, older hardware lacks the power to run ever increasingly complex OS at reasonable performance levels. Users, OTOH, will complain, if newer OS still work on older hardware, that the company is trying to force upgrades by making it run real slowly or leaving out features.

Apple should let the user decide when to stop using their computers, not apple decide for them.

They do, just not with the latest OS.

If I buy a new M2 MBP, If I want to use it for 10 years with full OS updates I should be able to.

It would be nice but that is not Apple's model; although typically they at least do (some) security updates for teh last 3 releases of MacOS, just not full updates unless it is the newest.

I suspect most users would not want to pay the extra costs if Apple did provide full updates but charged for those to older versions to cover the costs of updating.

OTOH, I know people who are still using 10 year old Macs just fine, if on an older OS version.

My 2007 acer is on current windows 10, (yes I know MS changed their coding for 11 but windows 10 is still getting full updates at this present time), I should be able to do the same thing on my Mac.

Windows 10 will reach end of support on October 14, 2025; 10 years after introduction, and IIRC are now only getting security updates until then.

Certainly a good run, but MS' business model is different from Apple's in that they are in the software business, not selling systems. If MS went to Apple's update policy you'd likely see an explosion in Linux as most companies would not want to junk their MS boxes every few years.

 

[Bodhitree]

Well there is at least one other reason why computers go obsolete, which is when cloud functions needed for the OS to function no longer work. On the Mac that could be Apple ID or iCloud or Find My, if it was turned on. I’ve never had a Mac where they no longer worked, but it is an obvious failure point.

 

[jlc1978]

Well there is at least one other reason why computers go obsolete, which is when cloud functions needed for the OS to function no longer work. On the Mac that could be Apple ID or iCloud or Find My, if it was turned on. I’ve never had a Mac where they no longer worked, but it is an obvious failure point.

I would think those type of capabilities would be the last to go, since they involve communications protocols that could maintain backwards capability even if new features might not work. AppleID is just a sign, iCloud web baseband thus runs on many browsers, Find My, which requires radio to work, would be more likely given that a wifi spec it uses could be dropped at some point.

 

[The point and shoot pro]

How much are you willing to pay for it? Because I certainly am in no mood to pay extra so that you can enjoy your obsolete hardware longer.

I should not HAVE to pay, nor should you. I paid for the F@*King computer when I bought it.

 

[The point and shoot pro]

Until the hardware dies, you still have the full functionality you had, as long as you keep the last supported configuration. I have vintage Apple computers that still run fine, on OS long since EOL'd by Apple.

At some point, older hardware lacks the power to run ever increasingly complex OS at reasonable performance levels. Users, OTOH, will complain, if newer OS still work on older hardware, that the company is trying to force upgrades by making it run real slowly or leaving out features.



They do, just not with the latest OS.



It would be nice but that is not Apple's model; although typically they at least do (some) security updates for teh last 3 releases of MacOS, just not full updates unless it is the newest.

I suspect most users would not want to pay the extra costs if Apple did provide full updates but charged for those to older versions to cover the costs of updating.

OTOH, I know people who are still using 10 year old Macs just fine, if on an older OS version.



Windows 10 will reach end of support on October 14, 2025; 10 years after introduction, and IIRC are now only getting security updates until then.

Certainly a good run, but MS' business model is different from Apple's in that they are in the software business, not selling systems. If MS went to Apple's update policy you'd likely see an explosion in Linux as most companies would not want to junk their MS boxes every few years.

Ok. from 2007 until 2025 running current OS software. Try that with a mac. Not going to happen and proves my point. Am I going to edit 4k video on the 2007? Nope, is it still a workable machine right now for browsing and basic tasks...YEP! My 2007 macbook was a brick 6 years after it was released as both google and apple blocked it from browser updates and therefore the browser would not even work on it only showing you need to update your browser in order to use it.

 

[gank41]

A "reasonable update cycle" for a Computer or Laptop would be closer to something like every 4-5+ years. For a Phone that would be more like every year to 3 years.. But, just because chips and computers are updated every year, doesn't mean you need to buy a new one every year. Someone else's 4-5 year cycle is not going to be the same as yours. Over the last 20+ or so years, I've gone every 5 years. Most people seem to go a little longer than that, while some luckier folks tend to buy new computers every 3-4 years. Not many, though.

 

[jlc1978]

Ok. from 2007 until 2025 running current OS software. Try that with a mac. Not going to happen and proves my point. Am I going to edit 4k video on the 2007? Nope, is it still a workable machine right now for browsing and basic tasks...YEP! My 2007 macbook was a brick 6 years after it was released as both google and apple blocked it from browser updates and therefore the browser would not even work on it only showing you need to update your browser in order to use it.

A lot depends on what you need to do . Any 2007 machine is likely to be poor at most tasks and while it may run a new OS many programs would be painfully slow. Then again, as I pointed out, many older machines are fine for many tasks on an older OS. My Mac mini you works fine as a media server with Snow Leopard, even if it won't run anything near today's OS.

I'm not arguing that you can run newer OS's on a Mac, my point is just because you can't doesn't make a machine unusable for many people.

 

[The point and shoot pro]

A lot depends on what you need to do . Any 2007 machine is likely to be poor at most tasks and while it may run a new OS many programs would be painfully slow. Then again, as I pointed out, many older machines are fine for many tasks on an older OS. My Mac mini you works fine as a media server with Snow Leopard, even if it won't run anything near today's OS.

I'm not arguing that you can run newer OS's on a Mac, my point is just because you can't doesn't make a machine unusable for many people.

As I said, I use it once a month to keep the blood flowing in it. It is perfectly fine for surfing, consuming content, productivity tasks. no slow downs at all. Edit 4k video? NOPE. do a quick photo edit? Yep. no problem.

 

[Analog Kid]

In that sense, computers don't really go obsolete anymore, and they haven't done so in a long time. If you bought a half-decent computer in 2010 (and not just something that was barely good enough for your needs), it probably remained useful until the hardware started failing or the vendor stopped providing security updates.

This is pretty much right for the vast majority of users. More of us want to believe we’re exceptions than actually are.