ARM Mac Pro - WWDC 2023

[Ethosik]

There were also no expandable Intel Macs, save for the Pro (and even the Pro wasn’t expandable for some time). But nobody would claim that x86 cannot make expandable computers, right?

M-series chips have PCI-e lanes, just like x86 systems (only fewer of those). Whether to expose these lanes as PCIe slots, external TB or something else is the question of system design.

I don't know why people think Arm prevents this. Isn't this an Arm CPU?

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And isn't this a server using it that has expansion slots?

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Like you said, other than the 2019 Mac Pro and 2010 Mac Pro before it (you could argue the 2013 Mac Pro COULD be upgradeable to a certain degree), every other Mac did not offer upgradeable PCIe slots or had anything upgradeable or lost it. 27" iMac and 2019 Mac Pro were the last ones that offered RAM upgrades.

Mac Pro is a different beast altogether. Just because Apple does something for their laptops doesn't mean it will do the same with the Mac Pro.

 

[quarkysg]

Like you said, other than the 2019 Mac Pro and 2010 Mac Pro before it (you could argue the 2013 Mac Pro COULD be upgradeable to a certain degree), every other Mac did not offer upgradeable PCIe slots or had anything upgradeable or lost it. 27" iMac and 2019 Mac Pro were the last ones that offered RAM upgrades.

Well, I did upgrade my mid 2010 27” iMac’s GPU when it fried, with a Metal compatible nVidia GPU, and also replace the spinning HDD with SATA SSD … heh heh. Took a lot of effort tho.

 

[anselpela]

There were also no expandable Intel Macs, save for the Pro (and even the Pro wasn’t expandable for some time). But nobody would claim that x86 cannot make expandable computers, right?

No, they wouldn't, because x86 were not entire SoCs. Lol. Come on dude.

 

[tlnargi]

who knows? actually Apple knows but not Gurman ...

I seriously doubt we'll see any new HW announcement beyond the goggles, otherwise all the thunder is going to be taken away from the goggles...

They will market a Mac Pro to do all the content creation FOR the goggles.

 

[leman]

No, they wouldn't, because x86 were not entire SoCs. Lol. Come on dude.

What does this even mean? Intel has been making SoCs since, what, 2012? And what does Apple Silicon being an SoC has to do with PCIe slots or storage expansion?

The design of Apple Silicon precludes separate GPUs (as it breaks the programming model) and to lesser degree RAM expansion (which is still potentially possible as a multi-tier RAM). But some posters here claim that Apple Silicon somehow prevents PCIe storage devices. This idea is nothing short of preposterous.

 

[Algr]

There were plenty of PCI cards for Mac back in the PowerPC days when all Macs had PCI slots. The problem is that even if a Mac Pro with slots is introduced, the number of Pros sold will be so small that hardly anyone will develop for it. It will be like Thunderbolt 2: 1.6x the performance for 10x the cost.

Apple would have to put PCI slots in MOST of their lineup before they would be useful.

 

[jz0309]

They will market a Mac Pro to do all the content creation FOR the goggles.

I see, developers are going to need a $6+ MacPro (base config but likely up to at least $25k if not more) to create apps for the $3k goggles - yea, makes sense 🤔🤣🤣

 

[tlnargi]

I see, developers are going to need a $6+ MacPro (base config but likely up to at least $25k if not more) to create apps for the $3k goggles - yea, makes sense

Guess you’ve never worked with AR or VR

 

[bobcomer]

There were also no expandable Intel Macs, save for the Pro (and even the Pro wasn’t expandable for some time). But nobody would claim that x86 cannot make expandable computers, right?

Nope. The 2020 27" iMac had expandable RAM and you don't have to go back to far to get an expandable Macbook Pro. I've actually expanded some for people, and the 2020 iMac is mine.

M-series chips have PCI-e lanes, just like x86 systems (only fewer of those). Whether to expose these lanes as PCIe slots, external TB or something else is the question of system design.

They do, but they aren't exposed so the user can't use them in current machines. (except for via TB, and I am very disappointed in them -- slow. Maybe TB4 can fix that).

Like I said before, I hope you're right, but I'm not seeing it yet,

 

[bobcomer]

I don't know why people think Arm prevents this. Isn't this an Arm CPU?

It's not the CPU that prevents it, it's the whole package, CPU, RAM, Disk controller, on one package. RAM would be the hard part without slowing everything down.

 

[leman]

Nope. The 2020 27" iMac had expandable RAM and you don't have to go back to far to get an expandable Macbook Pro. I've actually expanded some for people, and the 2020 iMac is mine.

We were talking about PCIe slots. That RAM expandability is not that simple with Apple Silicon is a fact.

They do, but they aren't exposed so the user can't use them in current machines. (except for via TB, and I am very disappointed in them -- slow. Maybe TB4 can fix that).

Just like they weren't exposed in Intel Mac minis or iMacs. Again, it's an implementation detail, not architectural constraint. My problem is with the specific claim "PCIe expansion is impossible with Apple Silicon".

 

[bobcomer]

The design of Apple Silicon precludes separate GPUs (as it breaks the programming model) and to lesser degree RAM expansion (which is still potentially possible as a multi-tier RAM). But some posters here claim that Apple Silicon somehow prevents PCIe storage devices. This idea is nothing short of preposterous.

I never said it couldn't happen, just that it hasn't happened yet and I have my doubts until it does happen. eGPU expansion cases would have been nice for the Studio. Maybe you wouldn't have needed a Mac Pro except for extreme expansion cases...

 

[bobcomer]

Again, it's an implementation detail, not architectural constraint.

We'll see, there's also Apple philosophy to contend with.

As for PCI slot, I think my iMac has one of those too for the GPU and the SSD is replaceable and expandable, but I sure wouldn't want to find out, I want to keep it a long time and you have to take it apart.

My problem is with the specific claim "PCIe expansion is impossible with Apple Silicon".

I would have a problem with that statement as well.

 

[leman]

I never said it couldn't happen, just that it hasn't happened yet and I have my doubts until it does happen. eGPU expansion cases would have been nice for the Studio. Maybe you wouldn't have needed a Mac Pro except for extreme expansion cases...

Oh, it's not you who was making the claims I was responding to. Posts being mixed a bit though and the original messages often gets lost.

I don't believe that GPU expansion will ever be a thing for Apple Silicon. That ship has sailed. But if Apple releases a "big" Mac Pro, it will certainly have PCIe slots for storage/add-on cards etc., maybe even RAM.

 

[bobcomer]

Oh, it's not you who was making the claims I was responding to. Posts being mixed a bit though and the original messages often gets lost.

I don't believe that GPU expansion will ever be a thing for Apple Silicon. That ship has sailed. But if Apple releases a "big" Mac Pro, it will certainly have PCIe slots for storage/add-on cards etc., maybe even RAM.

I was shopping for an eGPU case just this week for my laptop, but not to plug in an eGPU, but for a SAS/fiberchannel controller so I could plug a LTO tape drive into my laptop. It would be nice to have that capability with a Mac too. I didn't buy it and went a different way, but I see me buying one eventually.

 

[avkills]

There are plenty of 2019 Mac Pro compatible PCIe cards already on the market and many of them can also be used in PCs. Probably the biggest hurdle is the fact that Apple Silicon uses a completely different boot method than x86 machines, so that could be a constraint; but we don't know because there isn't a Apple Silicon machine with any PCIe slots tied directly to the CPU yet that lets someone slot a card in.

I am 50/50 on whether Apple releases a new Mac Pro; that was a good point brought up about taking thunder away from the goggles. But perhaps Apple will leave the goggles until the last announcement and then pull the "one more thing" citing the Mac Pro as the development platform. Or skip it completely and do a separate announcement either the day after or after WWDC.

 

[leman]

There are plenty of 2019 Mac Pro compatible PCIe cards already on the market and many of them can also be used in PCs. Probably the biggest hurdle is the fact that Apple Silicon uses a completely different boot method than x86 machines, so that could be a constraint; but we don't know because there isn't a Apple Silicon machine with any PCIe slots tied directly to the CPU yet that lets someone slot a card in.

Boot method and PCIe are unrelated.

I remember reading that quite a lot of equipment already has native driver shipped in the OS. People had success with capture cards using TB to PCIe enclosures. After all, TB can be used as a carrier for 4x PCIe.

 

[BanjoDudeAhoy]

No clue, but I'm itching to know if it will be expandable, and how.

Same. I have my doubts they’ll show it, but if they do this I what I want to know.

Not that I’d be the target demographic seeing that I consider the current 14/16” MBPs very pricy already, but I’m still curious

 

[scottrichardson]

4GHz M2 Ultra 24c CPU / 76c GPU
(clocked higher than the M2 Max in the 16" MBP)

192GB on-SOC RAM

No upgradable RAM on the main SOC

New MPX compute cards with additional fixed amount of RAM, GPU and CPU cores that can be leveraged via software built into latest Mac OS for handling tasks that can utilise the additional power, regardless of the minor amount of latency introduced. (Think processing of huge filters, exports, renders, calculations etc. Won't add benefit to gaming or standard real-time 3D rendering for visualisation or modeling etc).

I assume these MPX modules would be available in 3 flavours (my name idea in brackets):
- M2 Pro (MPX Pro)
- M2 Max (MPX Max)
- M2 Ultra (MPX Ultra)

The MAIN SOC would also be user-replaceable, but not as a PCIe card, rather a larger, dedicated and bespoke main-board replacing the existing logic board in the Mac Pro. This can be detached and replaced with an updated board in the future.

Chassis will otherwise be the same, minus the RAM slots and a few changes to the PCIe area, power supply etc.

 

[jmcube]

It will be announced but you won't be able to buy it until the fall.

 

[deconstruct60]

The design of Apple Silicon precludes separate GPUs (as it breaks the programming model) and to lesser degree RAM expansion (which is still potentially possible as a multi-tier RAM). But some posters here claim that Apple Silicon somehow prevents PCIe storage devices. This idea is nothing short of preposterous.

The AMD MI210 has no video output sockets on it at all.

https://www.amd.com/en/products/server-accelerators/amd-instinct-mi210

The web link about is .../products/server-accelerators/... so even on AMD's website it is not in the "graphics" product category.

Intel Data Center Flex

"....
# of Displays Supported‡ 0
..."

https://www.intel.com/content/www/u...-data-center-gpu-flex-140/specifications.html "


Nvidia H100 PCIe version ... external video connectors .... zero

Tenstorret cards .... external video connectors ... zero


Back in 2011-2014, Apple seriously missed the boat on a trendline of where GPUs were going. ( bigger and hotter). Similar issue seems to be forming here were "Compute accelerators" (especially in the AI/ML space) coming like a freight train. CXL 2.0/3.0 and it is freight train moving down a steep hill. There is a segment of card that are forking off from being primarily graphics to being primarily computational accelerators (and also supercomputer node on a card ). This time isn't a new zone a 'old' product category is going... it is a pragmatically new category that they are missing. ( and to lessor extent 2013 "default more than one GPU" while others running toward "one GPU". Now Apple is narrowly running at one GPU when, ta da! , growing segment running toward more than one 'accelerator'. )


Sure, Apple probably wants a graphics stack were all the assumptions about uniform , unified memory and specific features of Apple GPUs are deeply baked in (and optimized for) and assumed by almost all apps in the ecosystem. But there is whole another set big compute that isn't solely to produce video output.

And yes, all of those cards nominally have Linux drivers (and many of options in this new product area are OAM 'cards' not legacy PCI-e cards) . But why would any compute accelerator vendor even try to show up if Apple barking "get off my lawn" at all of them?

For the Mac Pro to ignore that whole segment is slightly 'nutty' if really looking at very long term viability for the product. Minimally, Apple should at least put in some hypervisor/virtualization stack work to pass through access to a card to a guest operating system that does want to do the driver work. Looks like Apple is just 'quitting' . So far out of the running that just going to chase even narrow niche and hope reduced user base is enough for a Rip van Winkle every 3-5 year product.

 

[fakestrawberryflavor]

I’ll throw in my speculation:

- MacPro announced, but purchase in October

- It will have a 3nm chip but won’t be an ‘M’ chip. Maybe X1 or X3 naming so it won’t be directly compared or take sales away from consumer M2 max sales

- despite the name, for all intents and purposes it will still be the big M3 Max die just clocked much higher ~5 GHz or so due to available cooling

- this won’t be the first 3nm chip to maket as it will have availability after A17 launches in September

- the sales of this Mac Pro will be so low due to economic conditions and affordability, no risk in having enough 3nm chips ready for it since it till be very low volume

- Apple can always harvest the defective ‘X1 or X3’ dies to make them M3 pro/max chips later because it’s the same chip, and start stockpiling them over a year for when products needing them start to be announced

 

[mr_roboto]

I remember reading that quite a lot of equipment already has native driver shipped in the OS. People had success with capture cards using TB to PCIe enclosures. After all, TB can be used as a carrier for 4x PCIe.

This. Everyone claiming Apple Silicon just doesn't have PCIe at all has not been paying attention. People use PCIe cards with Apple Silicon Macs today, through TB PCIe expansion chassis.

It's more than that, though. Many Apple Silicon Macs have IO ports not built into Apple's SoC. Instead, Apple provides a small number of PCIe lanes on every M-series SoC so they can throw in PCIe IO chips as needed. For example, 14" and 16" MBPs use a Genesys Logic GL9755A PCIe card reader chip for the SD socket, and if you order a M1/M2 Mac Mini with the optional $100 10 gigabit ethernet, it's an Aquantia AQction PCIe NIC chip.

So even the very first M1 chip released in fall 2020 supports PCIe natively. Not a lot of it, nowhere near enough lanes for a big box like the 2019 Mac Pro, but that's just because these chips weren't designed for a big box with lots of PCIe slots.

The only relevant question is what Apple decided the Apple Silicon Mac Pro should be when they started writing down its specification (the first step in any chip design). That will have driven their choices about what to put in, and what to leave out. Despite the fears being expressed in this thread, there is no sense in which they have backed themselves into a technical corner preventing them from doing certain things. Even the memory access mode issue preventing today's Apple Silicon chips from efficiently using third party PCIe GPUs should be easy to fix in a future chip, if Apple chooses to do so.

 

[jasoncarle]

2TB ECC LPDDR5X RAM

My Man!

 

[jasoncarle]

If they do cancel it they better announce they are doing so; so the people who need actual GPU processing power can move on, i.e Windows or Linux.

I already moved to a linux box with an AMD processor and an Nvidia 4090 that does the heavy lifting for me.