Bold move from Microsoft

[G51989]

So we should accept any thing anyone spouts as "fact" at face value because there are many other things to worry about ?

The only thing that sounds funny is that you would take the time to post on a Mac/computer forum where you believe there are so many other things to worry about.

Didn't you hear? Having a glass screen and metal case affect your computing experience...alot....

 

[belvdr]

Didn't you hear? Having a glass screen and metal case affect your computing experience...alot....

We couldn't hear it over the noise of the Windows machines.

 

[G51989]

The issue I see with this is, if it cannot be disabled via GPO, the time adds up quickly. For an organization of 5000 users, if it takes even 1 second for everyone to click on it, then there's 83 minutes of lost productivity just for a single click. I've been through this employee productivity exercise before and companies do think about these things.

So, booting up, having your home screen pop up, and taking the half second to click ? Time adds up?

Go run OSX in an Enterprise and large business envioment, and get back to me after you've spent hours just getting a Mac to work on your network

 

[belvdr]

So, booting up, having your home screen pop up, and taking the half second to click ? Time adds up?

Go run OSX in an Enterprise and large business envioment, and get back to me after you've spent hours just getting a Mac to work on your network

Yes, time adds up when each computer requires it. This has nothing to do with OS X.

 

[Kebabselector]

Go run OSX in an Enterprise and large business

No need, most businesses will stick with Windows 7 - were not going anywhere near Windows 8 for our 20,000 estate.

 

[G51989]

Yes, time adds up when each computer requires it. This has nothing to do with OS X.

So...spending the couple seconds to find and click on the explorer tab matters? i don't think it does, Beats the disaster that is OSX

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No need, most businesses will stick with Windows 7 - were not going anywhere near Windows 8 for our 20,000 estate.

Yep, they'll slowly move to Windows 7, then slowly move to Windows 8/9 in the years to come.

 

[belvdr]

So...spending the couple seconds to find and click on the explorer tab matters? i don't think it does, Beats the disaster that is OSX

Again, OS X is irrelevant; it is not installed as the main user operating system in most enterprises and is not the topic of this thread.

This change impacts user productivity negatively and that's why it is a bold move. I can't help that you can't understand this concept, but I can tell you that companies do. I'm no efficiency expert but even I can see this.

 

[MorphingDragon]

But becaues of the the way apple operates, I couldn't see any large business picking them up.

I mean, they brick you after 5 years, really?>

5 years? Big Business Service Level Agreements for Software ring to the tune of 10+ years, and your mac is stil usable well after those 5 years running the same software even if the shiniest version os OSX can't be run.

Companies have a lot of money, a lot more than they usually want their IT department to know. If the Higher Ups or Practice Manager or CIO want macs in their infrastructure, you'll see the funds you need quick smart.

At an IT level, it's still that good old UNIX that you know and love.

 

[G51989]

Again, OS X is irrelevant; it is not installed as the main user operating system in most enterprises and is not the topic of this thread.

This change impacts user productivity negatively and that's why it is a bold move. I can't help that you can't understand this concept, but I can tell you that companies do. I'm no efficiency expert but even I can see this.

It is a bold move, I am not disputing that.

But the fact that some people ( not you ) thnk W8 will kill windows is insane.

I bet the training will be something like " click on explorer tab....yeah thats it "

 

[MorphingDragon]

It is a bold move, I am not disputing that.

But the fact that some people ( not you ) thnk W8 will kill windows is insane.

I bet the training will be something like " click on explorer tab....yeah thats it "

Plus 50 million requests to IT to make a workaround so you dont need to click the explorer tab.

 

[belvdr]

It is a bold move, I am not disputing that.

But the fact that some people ( not you ) thnk W8 will kill windows is insane.

I bet the training will be something like " click on explorer tab....yeah thats it "

I don't think it will kill Windows, but it might cause Microsoft to rethink the thought of forcing Metro.

I can think of a few special applications where disabling Metro would be a requirement.

 

[G51989]

Plus 50 million requests to IT to make a workaround so you dont need to click the explorer tab.

Well if there were 50 million people saying " don't do this "

Would that matter to Microsoft? Their curennt instal base is well over 1 billion.

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I don't think it will kill Windows, but it might cause Microsoft to rethink the thought of forcing Metro.

I can think of a few special applications where disabling Metro would be a requirement.

It might,

and you can disable metro yourself every time you boot up

Its one click people, Jesus Christ.

I remeber the same crap when people said " OMFG ! Windows XP! Its cartoony! iTS CRAP! WINDOWS IS DEAD!!!!! "

We all know how well that worked out.

 

[belvdr]

It might,

and you can disable metro yourself every time you boot up

Its one click people, Jesus Christ.

I remeber the same crap when people said " OMFG ! Windows XP! Its cartoony! iTS CRAP! WINDOWS IS DEAD!!!!! "

We all know how well that worked out.

This is much different. It was the same underlying architecture. It's obvious you don't understand the enterprise impact. That's fine, but don't expect everyone to be on board with your idea.

The fact that something must be done upon each boot should signal alarms. Who wants that type of repetition to be done by each and every employee?

 

[G51989]

This is much different. It was the same underlying architecture. It's obvious you don't understand the enterprise impact. That's fine, but don't expect everyone to be on board with your idea.

The fact that something must be done upon each boot should signal alarms. Who wants that type of repetition to be done by each and every employee?

For enterprise? its litteraly as easy as clicking on the explorer tile. I don't understand why everyone is so mad about that.

In enterprise? If someone cant figure out how to click on the explorer tab, then thats the IT/Supports staffs job to tell them how ****ing stupid they are.

I would love computer to go back to 100% command prompt, that would eliminate about 80% of computer users, and lets be honest, The internet would be a better place.

 

[KnightWRX]

The thing is, as far as I know, you can still drop into the explorer. I'm not trying to argue, I agree with like 99% of the stuff you say. But this, I just don't understand how its a big deal not being able to boot into explorer, one click isn't a big deal to me.

It's not about being a big deal or not, it's about discussing what this will cause for Microsoft. If you don't want to discuss the removed option, don't. Just don't derail the thread with "it's not a big deal!". We're discussing the impacts of this decision by Microsoft, not whether or not its a big deal.

They removed an option. This breaks familiarity, adds new operations that weren't required before. Let's discuss what enterprises will do in light of this change, what end users might do, etc.. Let's not waste time with "it's not a big deal come on guys!".

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I've used them, no need to get hostile.

No hostility intended. Just pointing out that there is one right besides me, if I say it's loud, it's because it's loud, not some hearsay I heard some guy said.

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So...spending the couple seconds to find and click on the explorer tab matters?

You're forgetting this is throwing users into unfamiliar terrain. It's the support calls "What are these colored squares, where is my Excel document ?" that'll inevitably pop up, wasting both the employees and the tech support guy's time for something that a simple GPO was fixing before.

Not to mention all the callbacks : "I had to reboot, what was that thing you had me click to find my icons again ?".

Companies will have to product call scripts, templatized call tickets, "Windows 8 Migration assistant documents" to document all these things, on-floor specialists to assist employees as their desktops/laptops are moved to this platform, etc...

So really, if you have to go through all this trouble, why not just go back to bidding for your desktop/laptop OS and just move away from Microsoft ? (Don't think a lot of people want to break the strangle hold Microsoft has on our internal software).

 

[terraphantm]

Read the article, it's not that you can't use it. It's that the user will have to launch Explorer manually in the release version. No more registry/win.ini/whatever hack to launch automatically. Can't even do it by GPO, so even in corporate settings, users will be dumped in Metro and will need to click the Explorer button to launch it.

So it's still there, it's just not possible to automatically switch to it anymore.

I think a proper hack (rather than just a shortcut) can bring it back. The server version defaults to the desktop, and the system also defaults to the desktop when booted into safemode. So clearly the functionality is there. I'm sure some enterprising individuals can flip the appropriate bits for it to behave like the server version in that respect. Or I guess you can just install the server if you really want to.

With that said, after playing around with it for a few days, I'm going to skip Windows 8. For my usage it offers 0 benefit. It just makes my daily routine less efficient. So I'll stick with Windows 7 and hope they bring some of the performance benefits with SP2 like they've done in the past.

 

[MorphingDragon]

I think a proper hack (rather than just a shortcut) can bring it back. The server version defaults to the desktop, and the system also defaults to the desktop when booted into safemode. So clearly the functionality is there. I'm sure some enterprising individuals can flip the appropriate bits for it to behave like the server version in that respect. Or I guess you can just install the server if you really want to.

With that said, after playing around with it for a few days, I'm going to skip Windows 8. For my usage it offers 0 benefit. It just makes my daily routine less efficient. So I'll stick with Windows 7 and hope they bring some of the performance benefits with SP2 like they've done in the past.

A hack being required means it's bad software - especially for enterprise.

(Don't think a lot of people want to break the strangle hold Microsoft has on our internal software).

That's slowly changing for SME as Cloud Computing continues to grow. At the Law Firm I administer, the only reason we still need to se an IE product is a piece of government software. Running it inside CrossOver seems to suffice if the user wants to run Linux.

 

[Davy.Shalom]

RTM builds of Windows 8 reveal Microsoft blocked any bypassing of the Metro desktop

Will it end up hurting Windows 8 adoption ? One of the arguments often used was that Windows was familiar to users. With Windows 8 breaking the familiarity, all that's left is their application legacy. Is that enough in the age of the Web Browser as the allmighty application to keep their users from trying alternatives ?

A few points of reflexion.

There will be a way around this. Even if Microsoft doesn't release a patch that changes the desktop aesthetic to one more familiar, someone will release it.

I think it won't make a difference to sales. Windows 8 will be pre-installed on all the next generation PCs, and people won't have a choice. I don't like the Metro desktop...I like using my PC/Mac in a way that I can access everything in depth. I feel like Metro is too optimized for mobile support, and I have never liked tablet operating systems other than iOS to some degree.

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A hack being required means it's bad software - especially for enterprise.

^This

 

[G51989]

It's not about being a big deal or not, it's about discussing what this will cause for Microsoft. If you don't want to discuss the removed option, don't. Just don't derail the thread with "it's not a big deal!". We're discussing the impacts of this decision by Microsoft, not whether or not its a big deal.

They removed an option. This breaks familiarity, adds new operations that weren't required before. Let's discuss what enterprises will do in light of this change, what end users might do, etc.. Let's not waste time with "it's not a big deal come on guys!". .

Alright, now I see where your comming from.

What will IT support staff do? Probably just tell them to.

A: figure out metro
B: click the explorer tile.
C: train them?

I understand, that it IS a big deal, but at the same time, it has an easy work around, I totally understand why MS is doing this. They want to have a framiler UI in the Desktop, tablet, Xbox, and Phone systems.

Now, I don't know if you used Metro, I have for years ( zune/xbox/consumer preview most recently ) , and for an typical dumb user? I think its an upgrade.

Don't get me wrong, I know exactly where your comming from, and I do agree with most of it.


As far as your Macbook Air being loud, Ive been loanefd some on trips, loud for a laptop? You bet, oud comapred to a blade server or a G5? Nope

 

[KnightWRX]

For enterprise? its litteraly as easy as clicking on the explorer tile. I don't understand why everyone is so mad about that.

No one is mad, we're trying to discuss what this could mean for consumers, for enterprise employees, etc.. as far as breaking the familiarity could do to purchasing decisions.

You keep interupting. It's starting to get rude now that we're a few pages in. If you don't want to discuss the topic, but just want to harp on "it's 1 click!", ok, get out of the thread, we know it's just 1 click.

We want to discuss what this could mean for adoption, will it be a push to Metro's quick adoption by consumers/enterprises, will it be a push for alternative consumer desktop platforms, will it be a cause of stagnation of Windows 7 installations, etc..

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The server version defaults to the desktop

Actually, the GUI role is an optional install on What will be known as Windows Server 2012. You can even install it, do some quick configurations in the GUI and then remove it.

The default UI will either be MMC snap-ins from your workstation or Powershell.

 

[belvdr]

Actually, the GUI role is an optional install on What will be known as Windows Server 2012. You can even install it, do some quick configurations in the GUI and then remove it.

The default UI will either be MMC snap-ins from your workstation or Powershell.

There's no "what will be known as" with it. It was RTM'ed too. The GUI was also optional for Windows Server 2008 R2, although Server 2012 really guides you away from installing it.

For enterprise? its litteraly as easy as clicking on the explorer tile. I don't understand why everyone is so mad about that.

In enterprise? If someone cant figure out how to click on the explorer tab, then thats the IT/Supports staffs job to tell them how ****ing stupid they are.

I would love computer to go back to 100% command prompt, that would eliminate about 80% of computer users, and lets be honest, The internet would be a better place.

I'm not even close to upset or being mad. I do, however, understand why companies must support all kinds of end users and scenarios.

That middle paragraph also proves you most certainly don't understand the point of efficiency or what support staff should not say during a call. If you were to research KanBan, you'd be enlightened to how easily repetition ruins efficiency and how many factories can save tons of money by eliminating it. The same concept applies for any environment, not just a factory floor.

That said, if Microsoft doesn't allow Metro to be disabled, this may be a release that many organizations skip.

 

[terraphantm]

A hack being required means it's bad software - especially for enterprise.




That's slowly changing for SME as Cloud Computing continues to grow. At the Law Firm I administer, the only reason we still need to se an IE product is a piece of government software. Running it inside CrossOver seems to suffice if the user wants to run Linux.

It's not bad software if it's performing as intended. It'd be bad software if a hack was required to get it to work at all - which isn't the case.

And I never said such a hack would be any good for enterprises on a large scale. In any case, I doubt it'd be invasive or cause any stability issues since you'd probably just have to swap a file here or there from the server build (which is built on the same kernel). It's no worse than that Vista/7 hack to allow multiple RDP connections simultaneously, or the one that enabled Dreamscene for non-Ultimate builds of Vista..

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No one is mad, we're trying to discuss what this could mean for consumers, for enterprise employees, etc.. as far as breaking the familiarity could do to purchasing decisions.

You keep interupting. It's starting to get rude now that we're a few pages in. If you don't want to discuss the topic, but just want to harp on "it's 1 click!", ok, get out of the thread, we know it's just 1 click.

We want to discuss what this could mean for adoption, will it be a push to Metro's quick adoption by consumers/enterprises, will it be a push for alternative consumer desktop platforms, will it be a cause of stagnation of Windows 7 installations, etc..

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Actually, the GUI role is an optional install on What will be known as Windows Server 2012. You can even install it, do some quick configurations in the GUI and then remove it.

The default UI will either be MMC snap-ins from your workstation or Powershell.

Like with Server 08, you're not required to install it as a "core" install - the GUI is still available, and it can be selected right from the installer. Just because you don't *have* to install the GUI is pretty irrelevant to my point - which is that it is possible to get NT 6.2 to boot directly into explorer.

If you choose to install it w/ a GUI interface (which most will), then you get the full windows 8 gui. Except it'll default to the desktop instead of defaulting to the Metro UI.

 

[KnightWRX]

And I never said such a hack would be any good for enterprises on a large scale. In any case, I doubt it'd be invasive or cause any stability issues since you'd probably just have to swap a file here or there from the server build (which is built on the same kernel). It's no worse than that Vista/7 hack to allow multiple RDP connections simultaneously, or the one that enabled Dreamscene for non-Ultimate builds of Vista..

Not anything your average consumer or enterprise migration group would do, so besides the point of discussion here. We're not talking about how this will impact a few power users that'll just shrug, say it's not a big deal, hack it to work however they want and move on.

Like with Server 08, you're not required to install it as a "core" install - the GUI is still available, and it can be selected right from the installer. Just because you don't *have* to install the GUI is pretty irrelevant to my point - which is that it is possible to get NT 6.2 to boot directly into explorer.

If you choose to install it w/ a GUI interface (which most will), then you get the full windows 8 gui. Except it'll default to the desktop instead of defaulting to the Metro UI.

We're not discussing Windows 2012 Server.

 

[MorphingDragon]

It's not bad software if it's performing as intended. It'd be bad software if a hack was required to get it to work at all - which isn't the case.

And I never said such a hack would be any good for enterprises on a large scale. In any case, I doubt it'd be invasive or cause any stability issues since you'd probably just have to swap a file here or there from the server build (which is built on the same kernel). It's no worse than that Vista/7 hack to allow multiple RDP connections simultaneously, or the one that enabled Dreamscene for non-Ultimate builds of Vista..

Performing as Intended by the Company and Performing as Intended by the end users are not the same thing.

 

[terraphantm]

Not anything your average consumer or enterprise migration group would do, so besides the point of discussion here. We're not talking about how this will impact a few power users that'll just shrug, say it's not a big deal, hack it to work however they want and move on.



We're not discussing Windows 2012 Server.

I would argue these forums have a greater percentage of power users than most. So why shouldn't it be a point of discussion? Even the tweak that they did block wouldn't have been touched by laymen and enterprises either.

And who knows, such a mod could become mainstream if there's enough demand. Just look at how widespread iOS jailbreaking and Android rooting/custom roms are. If someone makes an idiot proof installer, I could see it becoming widespread in the consumer space. The enterprise space is another story. But also irrelevant since most probably will skip over 8 like many did for Vista. The OS releases are just too rapid at this point for enterprises to go with every one.

And we're discussing Windows 8. The server version is the same codebase. Like most Windows servers, the differences come down to a few registry changes and some server applications. Any UI change in Server can be applied to the workstation and vice versa.

So the point is - it will be possible to make the classic desktop the default. And it may very well become a common tweak in the consumer space. Enterprises of course would not adopt any such hack unless Microsoft officially sanctions something similar at some point in the future.