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That is exactly where M/soft and Apple have made a mistake, it is not a huge leap of design to have 2 grades of devices, Enterprise and Consumer, with Enterprise, you have the T chip or whatever it is called, that is controlling security for thumbnail scans, face id, etc, in the consumer this is not as effective...

With Enterprise, it is what it says on the tin, you have a licence from Apple/Msoft etc that allows system administrators that have been vetted by Apple/Msoft access to the code at a deeper level to control access to devices owned/leased by the enterprise..

This would allow for replacing parts, internally to the enterprise, you send them your faulty laptop, and in a day or 2, it is repaired, parts that need replacing can be "authorized" via the Enterprise licence via a dedicated secure system from Apple/Msoft etc..

For consumers, you would have to take the device to the istore, pay a $99 access fee, the device is repaired, or the device repaired by a licenced 3rd party that has paid to be on the authorization system in countries that lack Valid Apple/Msoft Offical Presence..

The issues can be solved, it creates jobs, it makes the brands better, saves on e-waste, I would love so much to re-activate my ipad with some version of linux, so I have a calendar/ basic video editing app, VLC video player, instead of it sitting rotting.. I just don't know enough about linux, and that what is on the utube is so confusing..
There are several problems with this idea, but the most obvious is that it isn't 'Apple and Microsoft' when it comes to physical devices, it's Apple on one side, and about 100 manufacturers on the other. Microsoft control a tiny segment of Windows hardware, whereas Dell, HP, Asus, Acer, Lenovo.... well, add your choice... all build their own systems on which the OS runs. The principle of the idea is basically sound, but it would mean that I'd have to get permission from a dozen manufacturers to service their hardware which my business has already bought and own.

Given I've been hardware servicing computers for 40 years, that might not be difficult permission to obtain, but what of a less experienced technician? Having a manufacturer control the right of access to the system internally isn't really the way you could reasonably do it.

There's another issue too, which actually goes right back to the reason Steve Jobs moved the original concept of the Mac from the 'open' hardware architecture of the Apple II and III, to the 'closed' concept we actually got in 1984. It is a large part of why he was keen on the 'computing appliance' philosophy, where the user got the box, plugged it in, used it, and never went inside it.

His experience of the systems designed by Woz, according to the lead industrial designer for the original Mac, was that with those systems, where the user added a card, or RAM, or a 3-rd party display, or a disk drive, when anything went wrong, it was 'Apple that got the call'. When it was an Apple component that was at fault this is fine, but open architecture means that system failures may, and often didn't, have anything to do with Apple-built equipment. Yet it cost Apple time and resources to troubleshoot and sometimes even repair what wasn't their responsibility.

In his mind, closing the architecture was how you solve this. And while Apple opened the architecture up after he'd gone, it began working to close it back down again - notably on consumer devices much more than enterprise ones - once he returned.

The philosophy there is, I think, right. Consumers are the tinkerers, enterprise are not. The problem is that Apple don't do much in the enterprise space any longer, and have ceded much of that ground for reasons we can only guess or assume, but are certainly related to the fact that these markets have become increasingly served by the same level of systems. It doesn't given them a great deal of motive to invest in the design and fulfillment of 'pro' level systems when (performance wise) the consumer level stuff they do make can outperform most pro-level user needs - even if not at the base configurations.

In that respect they'd be right. You could take an M1 or M3 iMac, and put it on the desk of almost anyone in 'the enterprise', and it would outperform their needs by a wide margin. Not a shock since our hardware needs are generally not hard to meet in real with even 5-10 year-old systems - which is why software lurches forward at 3, 4 or even 5 year cycles.

When you look at how the computer industry has stabilized in the last few years, I think a lot of manufacturers are more worried about their survival when demand for product is reducing. I don't think they'd see a business advantage in more specialist segmentation when in real terms it looks like greater 'commodification' is likely to work rather better (for them).
 
I would gladly return to paying for the software if it would mean we’d get much better software with fewer bugs and issues.

I also prefer a slightly longer release cycle

Reading about the seemingly endless Sonoma issues with every point release is almost painful.

People are trying to get work done and their USB hubs aren’t even working!
These kind of problems were very prevalent in the tiger days, all you’ve gotta do is Google.
 
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To those who are actually having a healthy conversation in this thread...

What do you think the future will bring? I see a lot of good examples of problems with Apple and macOS in this thread (including my own thoughts in an earlier post) and excellent criticism, but will anything change? We know Apple rarely listens to customer feedback and they just do whatever they want or whatever they think the user wants, so should we really be hoping for a change? Personally, I think the ship has sailed. Maybe if another visionary CEO comes in after Cook it would change, but I am sure Cook has someone already ready to go to replace him and keep the bean counting going and massive revenue flowing. I am not sure how anyone who uses both platforms daily can honestly still say Apple is the best. There are many examples where they fall short and like others have stated, the walled garden and "lock-in" is becoming even more extreme now that they are pushing subscription services heavily.

I think most of us on here criticizing Apple are just the old users now. I have been using computers since I was 8, and there are just certain ways a computer works and is used that makes sense to me. I am not sure if it is just that I am old and stuck in my ways or I have experienced enough to know what works better than other ways. It reminds me of how a lot of young people now don't even know what a file is or how to use a file manager. The ideas of what a computer is and how an operating system works have shifted, and I think Apple has always been trying to push those ideas forward and be at the front of whatever they think the new era of computing is. You clearly see this with the AVP. This "spatial computing" nonsense and when they kept saying an iPad is the new computer. I am sorry, but I can get way more real work done on my desktop PC than I could ever get done on an iPad with a big phone OS or a beta AR headset and waving my hands around. Apple will continue to push these new paradigms forward and will continue to skate to where the money is. This means that us criticizing macOS and Mac's and comparing them to Windows will just be left in the void. While we continue to complain about window management in macOS and having to buy or use a third party program to achieve the same functionality as in Windows, Apple will be busy trying to sell us on the idea of putting a headset on our heads and waving our hands around to move pin windows to areas floating in front of us.
 
There are several problems with this idea, but the most obvious is that it isn't 'Apple and Microsoft' when it comes to physical devices, it's Apple on one side, and about 100 manufacturers on the other. Microsoft control a tiny segment of Windows hardware, whereas Dell, HP, Asus, Acer, Lenovo.... well, add your choice... all build their own systems on which the OS runs. The principle of the idea is basically sound, but it would mean that I'd have to get permission from a dozen manufacturers to service their hardware which my business has already bought and own.
Both the hardware and software side of the PC market has had the "Consumer vs. Enterprise" segmentation for quite some time already. Most of the major manufacturers offer different classes of builds (ie, Dell has the Alienware and Inspiron laptop lines for home users, Precision and Latitude lines for Pro users, and the Vostro and XPS lines that straddle those markets). Intel has the VPro processors for additional security and IT management of hardware, and Microsoft has the different Windows licenses (Home, Pro, Enterprise, etc.) and O365 tiers for Home, Education, Business, and Enterprise markets.

I'm not sure what JustinePaula was actually getting at when talking about Apple/MSoft being able to design two "grades" of devices - that has been a thing for quite a long time (on the Apple side especially - one of the first things Jobs did upon returning to Apple was re-segment Apple's computers into four distinct segments - Consumer and Pro, Laptops and Desktops). The level of after-sales service offered is also segmented in that way.

There's another issue too, which actually goes right back to the reason Steve Jobs moved the original concept of the Mac from the 'open' hardware architecture of the Apple II and III, to the 'closed' concept we actually got in 1984. It is a large part of why he was keen on the 'computing appliance' philosophy, where the user got the box, plugged it in, used it, and never went inside it.
It would be good to point out that the Steve Jobs that favoured closed systems was also the Steve Jobs that was fired from Apple, and then went on to start another computer company that built and sold some very incredible hardware and software, but was also a closed system and ultimately failed to gain any major dominance in the market. The Steve Jobs that returned to Apple and turned it into a profitable company was the one that moved the Mac design away from proprietary/unsupported technologies (Zip drives, ADB, 25-Pin SCSI, GeoPort, proprietary RAM, mini-DIN serial, Mac-RGB connectors, OpenDoc, AppleTalk) to more supported, open standards (IDE, USB, FireWire, VGA, SATA, CD-RW/DVD-RW, SDRAM, Java, TCP/IP) and then invented machines that were incredibly easy to upgrade (even the all-in-ones and portables were very easy to upgrade, most requiring no tools at all to open and access RAM slots).

His experience of the systems designed by Woz, according to the lead industrial designer for the original Mac, was that with those systems, where the user added a card, or RAM, or a 3-rd party display, or a disk drive, when anything went wrong, it was 'Apple that got the call'. When it was an Apple component that was at fault this is fine, but open architecture means that system failures may, and often didn't, have anything to do with Apple-built equipment. Yet it cost Apple time and resources to troubleshoot and sometimes even repair what wasn't their responsibility.
Apple may have been fielding some of the calls, but they were rarely doing the troubleshooting and repair works on those machines. Before the Genius Bar, there were Apple Authorized repair shops everywhere, and they were doing the troubleshooting and repairs. It was pretty quick and easy to determine when something was covered by warranty or not covered by warranty (hint: if it was a non-Apple part causing the problem, it was not covered under warranty). If it was not covered under warranty, the troubleshooting was not done for free.

Now, Apple has taken on some of that responsibility with their "Genius Bars". This is a conscious decision Apple made as part of their overall marketing strategy (much of which is based on doing away with third parties entirely). I haven't visited a Genius Bar lately, but I would wager a guess that even today, that is still the case - Apple will gladly diagnose a problem with the machine, but if it is not something that is normally covered under warranty, the customer is going to pay for that diagnosis. Either way, this is hardly a "cost" in terms of time and resources for Apple - Apple services are a profit center.

In his mind, closing the architecture was how you solve this. And while Apple opened the architecture up after he'd gone, it began working to close it back down again - notably on consumer devices much more than enterprise ones - once he returned.
Again, the Mac designs from the time he returned to the fairly recent past tell a different story here.

The problem is that Apple don't do much in the enterprise space any longer, and have ceded much of that ground for reasons we can only guess or assume, but are certainly related to the fact that these markets have become increasingly served by the same level of systems.
It has more to do with the fact that Apple has never had the internal knowledge to serve those markets. This was most apparent when Apple tried to offer a legitimate server line - both the components they chose to use (low end IDE RAID controllers, certain non-hot-swappable components), and the "enterprise support plans" they offered (little more than pre-purchased replacement parts kits and a phone line to have a tech walk you through installing them) made it painfully clear that Apple had absolutely no idea how to serve the enterprise market. Some of the device-management features they offer on iOS have helped spur some corporate adoption, but outside of that, Apple has never really known how to serve anything beyond consumers and prosumers.

Even today, Apple chooses to only really offer enterprise-level hardware support to very large enterprises. The minimum device enrollment for "AppleCare for Enterprise" (next day on-site service, end-user phone support) is something like 200-1000 devices. The upcharge for that service plan is fairly expensive. Conversely, Dell has been offering enterprise support for the laptops deployed at my firm (currently about 30 devices) for over 2 decades now, and the price for that service is about the equivalent to normal consumer-level AppleCare.
 
To those who are actually having a healthy conversation in this thread...

What do you think the future will bring?

I think most of us on here criticizing Apple are just the old users now. I have been using computers since I was 8, and there are just certain ways a computer works and is used that makes sense to me. I am not sure if it is just that I am old and stuck in my ways or I have experienced enough to know what works better than other ways. It reminds me of how a lot of young people now don't even know what a file is or how to use a file manager. The ideas of what a computer is and how an operating system works have shifted, and I think Apple has always been trying to push those ideas forward and be at the front of whatever they think the new era of computing is. You clearly see this with the AVP. This "spatial computing" nonsense and when they kept saying an iPad is the new computer. I am sorry, but I can get way more real work done on my desktop PC than I could ever get done on an iPad with a big phone OS or a beta AR headset and waving my hands around. Apple will continue to push these new paradigms forward and will continue to skate to where the money is. This means that us criticizing macOS and Mac's and comparing them to Windows will just be left in the void. While we continue to complain about window management in macOS and having to buy or use a third party program to achieve the same functionality as in Windows, Apple will be busy trying to sell us on the idea of putting a headset on our heads and waving our hands around to move pin windows to areas floating in front of us.
A couple things to keep in mind…
Over 80% of teenagers in the US use an iPhone as their main apple product, more realistically, just their main “product”.
When those people become adults, the majority of them will… Still be using iPhones.

Secondly, despite not being able to see it much in this forum, Apple has *extremely high* customer satisfaction levels.





So what does the future hold? Well… Probably yeah, more of the same. Because whatever they’re doing, clearly it’s working.
No matter the complaints and the bugs and the missteps (that every technology company faces at one point or another), Apple has whatever that secret sauce is that keeps people not only wanting, but also very satisfied with their products.
And for every Mac user who wants Apple to go back to the Apple of 2005, there’s thousands of current Apple users who couldn’t be happier with the Apple of 2024.

Apple will continue to be Apple.
 
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Both the hardware and software side of the PC market has had the "Consumer vs. Enterprise" segmentation for quite some time already. Most of the major manufacturers offer different classes of builds (ie, Dell has the Alienware and Inspiron laptop lines for home users, Precision and Latitude lines for Pro users, and the Vostro and XPS lines that straddle those markets). Intel has the VPro processors for additional security and IT management of hardware, and Microsoft has the different Windows licenses (Home, Pro, Enterprise, etc.) and O365 tiers for Home, Education, Business, and Enterprise markets.

I'm not sure what JustinePaula was actually getting at when talking about Apple/MSoft being able to design two "grades" of devices - that has been a thing for quite a long time (on the Apple side especially - one of the first things Jobs did upon returning to Apple was re-segment Apple's computers into four distinct segments - Consumer and Pro, Laptops and Desktops). The level of after-sales service offered is also segmented in that way.


It would be good to point out that the Steve Jobs that favoured closed systems was also the Steve Jobs that was fired from Apple, and then went on to start another computer company that built and sold some very incredible hardware and software, but was also a closed system and ultimately failed to gain any major dominance in the market. The Steve Jobs that returned to Apple and turned it into a profitable company was the one that moved the Mac design away from proprietary/unsupported technologies (Zip drives, ADB, 25-Pin SCSI, GeoPort, proprietary RAM, mini-DIN serial, Mac-RGB connectors, OpenDoc, AppleTalk) to more supported, open standards (IDE, USB, FireWire, VGA, SATA, CD-RW/DVD-RW, SDRAM, Java, TCP/IP) and then invented machines that were incredibly easy to upgrade (even the all-in-ones and portables were very easy to upgrade, most requiring no tools at all to open and access RAM slots).


Apple may have been fielding some of the calls, but they were rarely doing the troubleshooting and repair works on those machines. Before the Genius Bar, there were Apple Authorized repair shops everywhere, and they were doing the troubleshooting and repairs. It was pretty quick and easy to determine when something was covered by warranty or not covered by warranty (hint: if it was a non-Apple part causing the problem, it was not covered under warranty). If it was not covered under warranty, the troubleshooting was not done for free.

Now, Apple has taken on some of that responsibility with their "Genius Bars". This is a conscious decision Apple made as part of their overall marketing strategy (much of which is based on doing away with third parties entirely). I haven't visited a Genius Bar lately, but I would wager a guess that even today, that is still the case - Apple will gladly diagnose a problem with the machine, but if it is not something that is normally covered under warranty, the customer is going to pay for that diagnosis. Either way, this is hardly a "cost" in terms of time and resources for Apple - Apple services are a profit center.


Again, the Mac designs from the time he returned to the fairly recent past tell a different story here.


It has more to do with the fact that Apple has never had the internal knowledge to serve those markets. This was most apparent when Apple tried to offer a legitimate server line - both the components they chose to use (low end IDE RAID controllers, certain non-hot-swappable components), and the "enterprise support plans" they offered (little more than pre-purchased replacement parts kits and a phone line to have a tech walk you through installing them) made it painfully clear that Apple had absolutely no idea how to serve the enterprise market. Some of the device-management features they offer on iOS have helped spur some corporate adoption, but outside of that, Apple has never really known how to serve anything beyond consumers and prosumers.

Even today, Apple chooses to only really offer enterprise-level hardware support to very large enterprises. The minimum device enrollment for "AppleCare for Enterprise" (next day on-site service, end-user phone support) is something like 200-1000 devices. The upcharge for that service plan is fairly expensive. Conversely, Dell has been offering enterprise support for the laptops deployed at my firm (currently about 30 devices) for over 2 decades now, and the price for that service is about the equivalent to normal consumer-level AppleCare.
I appreciate the response and the thoughts. The points you make are, I think, pretty much on point, and while there are a few niggles to disagree with, I'm not sure there's any need to.

Since my post was actually intended more to respond to @JustinePaula 's idea of segmenting the product range into consumer and enterprise equipment than it was to enter the fray of Apple's policies or practices, I rather diverted myself there and didn't mean to.

In saying that, to try and return to what my point ought to have been rather than what it was, Apple's segmentation of the market once Jobs shook out all the wrinkles from their rather scatter-gun product line by 1997, where he broke it into a mere 4 product lines as you describe, did not last all that long, and isn't really much in place now. In name, certainly, but not in reality.

Part of the reason is, exactly as I stated, system performance has broadly exceeded needs by quite a long way, and while it's true that Dell, for example, maintain notionally consumer and enterprise product lines, there has been pretty wide overlap for a long time. Certainly an Inspiron can be had for a lot less than an Alienware, and those differences, like those between a MacBook Air and MacBook Pro, are often more about marginal feature gains than anything. But enterprise customers have far different constraints than consumers do, and make resourcing decisions in far different ways. Which brings in the next reason enterprise typically doesn't look for the kind of device/expansion options @JustinePaula was referring to and to which I was responding: Support cost.

We rightly are aghast at Apple charging a disproportionate $200 for 8Gb RAM, and as consumers, finding this extra cash at time of purchase can be difficult (or difficult to justify). In the world of enterprise management however, the choice is a very different one. To the enterprise, it is far better to absorb that cost up front at purchase - and actually easier - because they typically don't buy from cash in hand, but by amortization over 5 years or so. In our business, it was 3 years for laptops and 5 for desktops (laptops being previously known for being lower mips/dollar and shorter lifespan), but is now 5 for all.

The bank doesn't care that there's extra cost in the capital investment, just that the enterprise has the cashflow and capitalization, and the systems will last that long. For the enterprise, their financial management also get a predictable cost, with known outflow of expenses for the ledgers.

The reason why @JustinePaula 's idea isn't likely to work, is that to the enterprise, the cost of support - having to pay a known-good technician their hourly rate for upgrading machines post-purchase - is that not only are those costs likely to be as high or higher than (in this case) Apple's initial purchase differential for the expanded system, but also that they can't amortize those costs into the capital plan. Another possible hit that would in fact be true for us, is that the write off value of the system for annual tax purposes will likely be stuck at the initial pre-upgrade cost, not the upgraded one.

Apple's strategy and purpose was a bit of an unintended red herring, though having read your thoughts on it, I think it was a useful one!
 
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Also, if you think any of the “Apple doesn’t care about the Mac” people are new, well… Check out this comment section from 2007. It looks so familiar…

the mac is dead

What a shock!!! NO mac products, no leopard.

HELLO windows, HELLO M$, HELLO sh**!@@@@$^%!
Sad, very sad...

This inconspicuous name change really sums it up.

Once apon a time, Apple used to make very innovative computer products. Then along came the iPod and iTunes, and the enormous profits that came with Apple's entertainment sector.

Unfortunately (and this lame Keynote only confirms this), the only place where innovation seems to be happening any more at Apple is with anything iPod/iTunes/iPhone/Apple TV related.

Steve, I understand that you're at that midlife-crisis stage of life and need your fix of small, sleek, mesmerizing gadgets, but enough already! Let's finally see some of that innovation spill over into what Apple used to be about: computers.
Right, but what I am saying is that the innovation factor seems to be truly suffering lately as far as computers go. For one thing, form factors have hardly changed on some products for nearly four years.

It is time for Apple to "wow" us once again with something other than a bloody cell phone (however cool that may be) or entertainment console.
Friggin Bean Counters! Jobs could have barfed the word "phone" and they would have been on the floor snatching up shares of stock.The iPhone has been a wall street darling for over a year now.

But this is MacWorld, Not CES.
Sorry to see this great computer company becoming a toy company. Seems like the begening of an end.
I understand why people are getting frustrated with those of us who do not like the name change.

Perhaps I can best sum it up by explaining I have been an MAC user since 1990 and have fought their corner for years now, the trade off being I have had smart, innovative, computer products to enjoy. I felt a part of Apple Computers although we were a small PC market share, we were the best.

Then along came the iMac and everybody could enjoy MACs - fantastic. I felt in someway vindicated now the rest of the world have joined in.

Then came the iPod and iTunes - nice toys but nothing really to do with me.

Now comes Apple Inc. The iPhone and Apple TV. Apple Inc!! I've suddenly found myself part of a global giant, a share price grabbing consumer, a multi conglomerate who wants the world to use their products. I know Apple have always been these things but in someway the name change makes everything a bit more transparent. Apple is just another Microsoft and has been all these years, I've just been kidding myself that they and I were different.
And all of these comments were from January 2007.
When Steve Jobs was the leader, Tiger was the latest OS, and the Intel transition had just happened the previous year.
“ Apple doesn’t innovate anymore”, “the Mac is dead”, “Steve is nothing but beancounter only interested in the shareholders”, “Steve is having a mid-life crisis and all he cares about is shiny gadgets”…
It’s literally all here, the Mac Rumors angry poster 2024 playbook.
 
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Also, if you think any of the “Apple doesn’t care about the Mac” people are new, well… Check out this comment section from 2007. It looks so familiar…







And all of these comments were from January 2007.
When Steve Jobs was the leader, Tiger was the latest OS, and the Intel transition had just happened the previous year.
“ Apple doesn’t innovate anymore”, “the Mac is dead”, “Steve is nothing but beancounter only interested in the shareholders”, “Steve is having a mid-life crisis and all he cares about is shiny gadgets”…
It’s literally all here, the Mac Rumors angry poster 2024 playbook.
Which means that they aren't going to change anything that us "long timers" are complaining about right now. That's more-or-less what I decided when I switched to all Windows and my iPhone a few weeks ago. I will have to change because Apple is not.

Look, that could mean that in a few months I decide to cave and switch back. Maybe Apple continues and expands user privacy within AI (when they release it), or does more user-focused behaviors and I switch back. But right now it is clear that if you want innovation in the PC sector (especially once Snapdragon X Elite comes out in June) as well as cost-savings, then you might as well get used to Microsoft on your OS.
 
Which means that they aren't going to change anything that us "long timers" are complaining about right now. That's more-or-less what I decided when I switched to all Windows and my iPhone a few weeks ago. I will have to change because Apple is not.

Look, that could mean that in a few months I decide to cave and switch back. Maybe Apple continues and expands user privacy within AI (when they release it), or does more user-focused behaviors and I switch back. But right now it is clear that if you want innovation in the PC sector (especially once Snapdragon X Elite comes out in June) as well as cost-savings, then you might as well get used to Microsoft on your OS.
“ Innovation” means nothing to me.
Check out this video…
Over the years, Samsung was doing some truly insane next level innovation. Some of those features are truly awesome, and on paper make the iPhones of the time look laughably behind in comparison.
But… most of those innovative features were there one year, and gone the next.
Eye scrolling? Introduced in the galaxy S4, praised for being cool, gone by the S5.
 
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Personally, I think the ship has sailed. Maybe if another visionary CEO comes in after Cook it would change, but I am sure Cook has someone already ready to go to replace him and keep the bean counting going and massive revenue flowing.

I think it's probably sailed, barring a bit of a true downturn and new leadership

But -- there is no "Steve waiting to come back" this time, so who really knows.

Maybe some upstart that we don't even know about yet will come up with a real shakeup.

Steve was for sure a flawed character, but he was product driven and quite visionary and super smart ...

Folks like him are hard to find these days ... especially ones that haven't been corrupted into wasting their time on Crypto or some other VC hyped garbage.
 
I've said this before, so a whole load of people will be rolling their eyes already, but innovation is not what the market is driven by these days. It costs money to invent new things, then the however-many-iterations of designing then, then fabricate all the prototypes and test them, engineer the fixes, organize the suppliers and the product lines.... and when you do all that and count the money it all cost, you see all the negative wining about how it could be so much better if... how it ought to be... how the cost is too high... yeah, not much incentive there.

Even if it were an incentive, global markets are constrained or diminishing, costs rising, the supply chain is choked by single point failures, and the consumer has no money to spend because the cost of living just about everywhere but Katmandu has gone through the roof. Probably even there.

Sensibly, you consolidate. Even the Vision Pro, as new as that is to Apple, is merely a catchup - however good or bad - to many others already in that space.

And yes, Apple have always had the critics, whoever was in charge, whatever they did, at whatever price. It's the price of doing business in a marketplace wanting Apple-quality product at Dell prices.
 
I've said this before, so a whole load of people will be rolling their eyes already, but innovation is not what the market is driven by these days. It costs money to invent new things, then the however-many-iterations of designing then, then fabricate all the prototypes and test them, engineer the fixes, organize the suppliers and the product lines.... and when you do all that and count the money it all cost, you see all the negative wining about how it could be so much better if... how it ought to be... how the cost is too high... yeah, not much incentive there.

Even if it were an incentive, global markets are constrained or diminishing, costs rising, the supply chain is choked by single point failures, and the consumer has no money to spend because the cost of living just about everywhere but Katmandu has gone through the roof. Probably even there.

Sensibly, you consolidate. Even the Vision Pro, as new as that is to Apple, is merely a catchup - however good or bad - to many others already in that space.

And yes, Apple have always had the critics, whoever was in charge, whatever they did, at whatever price. It's the price of doing business in a marketplace wanting Apple-quality product at Dell prices.
There’s also just a fact that anything new Apple comes out with is… At the end of the day just another computer.
Which was also the case 20 years ago, but the path forward was pretty obvious. Make a computer smaller. Make them thinner. Make them more mobile. Make them easier to use.

Now, pretty much every device, phones, tablets, watches, even television sets and headsets… They’re all just another form of computer.
People wants a new form of computer to just absolutely wow them and give them something new to do, it in someways a product like the Vision Pro does do that…
But it’s also just a way to get on the Internet. Just another vehicle to get to the same place you get with everything else.
It makes it a lot harder to impress.
 
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Taking a step back, and trying to see the pattern at a larger scale. I realize that Apple might have done the right thing.
Even if I do not like it, nor agree with it.
I have no idea how Apple was able to foresee, and tell the engineering teams to start developing in the new direction.

As much as I would like to voice my thoughts, I can not. As it it risks crossing into territory that is not allowed.
I was already suspended once. And that is fair enough. Rules are rules.

Still, as I just realized what Apple might be doing (I'm just guessing here). I got to admire their determination to follow through on their new path. And this could very well end up leading to something everybody will appreciate. Albeit it might take several years before it take full blossom.
I am saying this, because I sense a multi-layered approach in how Apple is structured. And some layers might be less vital for Apple internally, in the long run. Thus could rapidly change, if outside factors changes.

This is a very abstract description, I admit. Some might understand. If it makes no sense to you, then that will be fine too.

My message is: I actually believe Apple is doing the right thing, at the right time
 
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My message is: I actually believe Apple is doing the right thing, at the right time

I would love to agree with this, but when they pivoted to Services as a future revenue growth driver, they fundamentally corrupted the incentives for the whole company

They are no longer, as a primary goal, in pursuit of what drew so many of us to Apple in the first place

(best, most polished products, hardware, OS, ecosystem eventually, full integration)

So -- is that "the right thing, at the right time"?
I guess if massaging the stock price endlessly up is the goal ... sure? maybe?
 
I would love to agree with this, but when they pivoted to Services as a future revenue growth driver, they fundamentally corrupted the incentives for the whole company

They are no longer, as a primary goal, in pursuit of what drew so many of us to Apple in the first place

(best, most polished products, hardware, OS, ecosystem eventually, full integration)

So -- is that "the right thing, at the right time"?
I guess if massaging the stock price endlessly up is the goal ... sure? maybe?
This is on a layer that could change, if outside factors change. Especially from investor side.
I see this in other parts of tech outside of the computer industry. Where investor sentiment is rapidly changing. And companies adjust their direction. Like the car industry, right now.

The core of Apple with the hardware and software, looks to be on a good track for future development.
 
My message is: I actually believe Apple is doing the right thing, at the right time
We just don't know. I'm in the position of having worked with them several times over the years in various ways, but even with the insights gained that way, they are not a company that is at all transparent, even on the inside, so the decisions they make are sometimes even in themselves not really visible.

The move to 'services' which @turbineseaplane identifies is one of those areas. This was begun under the Jobs leadership, and much of what we see today is a direct result of structures which he put in place. You can see if the ways he talked about the creative space and the Mac as a media hub that these drivers were part of the DNA of the company, and the fact he made new business models of music retail and the hobbyist-to-pro range of video creation is in some ways what spurred the rest of the market.

He was vehemently against 'renting' music and subscription models didn't appeal to him at all. But once everyone else saw the opportunities in it, it is hardly surprising Apple got dragged in too.

The difference between Apple then, and Apple now, is that then, what Apple did led the consumer. Today, the consumer leads Apple. And if there is one thing Jobs ought to be remembered for above anything else, it's his belief that he wanted to build things the consumer didn't know it wanted yet. Absent that, we get exactly what Henry Ford said the public would demand of the automobile - faster horses.

Today, instead of macOS being the very best computing platform, it is at best the least worse. That ought not to be good enough. When Windows has more elegant ways to manage files and systems - Windows - Apple ought to be ashamed of themselves.

Yet on the other hand, when I pick up my 15-inch MBA, the sheer feel and weight, the texture and the balance of it, the color and how light picks out the shape of it - this can't just be a lucky accident of design. How can we reconcile the difference between the macOS dumpster fire and this machine, which I really believe Steve Jobs would look at and approve?
 
Yet on the other hand, when I pick up my 15-inch MBA, the sheer feel and weight, the texture and the balance of it, the color and how light picks out the shape of it - this can't just be a lucky accident of design. How can we reconcile the difference between the macOS dumpster fire and this machine, which I really believe Steve Jobs would look at and approve?
I haven't looked at it, as I don't like laptops at all. But I am sure you are 100% correct :)
 
“ Innovation” means nothing to me.
Check out this video…
Over the years, Samsung was doing some truly insane next level innovation. Some of those features are truly awesome, and on paper make the iPhones of the time look laughably behind in comparison.
But… most of those innovative features were there one year, and gone the next.
Eye scrolling? Introduced in the galaxy S4, praised for being cool, gone by the S5.
Right, but some of the ideas stick around, that's the whole point. Look at folding displays.
 
Right, but some of the ideas stick around, that's the whole point. Look at folding displays.
It also proves that one man's innovation is another's poison. I wouldn't be interested at all in a folding display, and would see that as a gimmick, while others seem very keen. The reality is that manufacturers can only test the market to see what it wants in so many ways. Samsung have tended to do this with product so it's visible, where Apple have usually kept it behind closed door so it isn't.
 
I would gladly return to paying for the software if it would mean we’d get much better software with fewer bugs and issues.

I also prefer a slightly longer release cycle

Reading about the seemingly endless Sonoma issues with every point release is almost painful.

People are trying to get work done and their USB hubs aren’t even working!
Same here. That was a time when Apple was "hungry" for marketshare and mindshare. They knew that if their hardware was going to have a future then they couldn't rely on 3rd party developers. Apple developed some amazing apps in-house... a lot of them were bundled in with the OS... or sold as an add-on bundle.

Even though I wasn't a fan of Apple back then, I DID appreciate that they provided a fully functional offering out-of-the-box for home and school users to be productive.

It was when Apple branched out and made ClarisWorks available for Windows that I began to get interested in Apple. What I was able to do with Clarisworks for Windows made my co-workers (who used MS Office) envious.

When ClarisWorks became AppleWorks (again with a version for Windows), I was curious as to what it would be like to run software like this on its originating platform. I bought my first Mac... 15" Macbook Pro and I was hooked.

Then to move to iWorks+Bento (back when iWorks had greater functionality) and it just sealed the deal.

Apple is now a mature, moneymaking tsunami of a corporation now... reaping the benefits of those days-gone-by. I don't blame them, but I do miss their scrappiness.
 
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To those who are actually having a healthy conversation in this thread...

What do you think the future will bring? I see a lot of good examples of problems with Apple and macOS in this thread (including my own thoughts in an earlier post) and excellent criticism, but will anything change? We know Apple rarely listens to customer feedback and they just do whatever they want or whatever they think the user wants, so should we really be hoping for a change? Personally, I think the ship has sailed. Maybe if another visionary CEO comes in after Cook it would change, but I am sure Cook has someone already ready to go to replace him and keep the bean counting going and massive revenue flowing. I am not sure how anyone who uses both platforms daily can honestly still say Apple is the best. There are many examples where they fall short and like others have stated, the walled garden and "lock-in" is becoming even more extreme now that they are pushing subscription services heavily.

I think most of us on here criticizing Apple are just the old users now. I have been using computers since I was 8, and there are just certain ways a computer works and is used that makes sense to me. I am not sure if it is just that I am old and stuck in my ways or I have experienced enough to know what works better than other ways. It reminds me of how a lot of young people now don't even know what a file is or how to use a file manager. The ideas of what a computer is and how an operating system works have shifted, and I think Apple has always been trying to push those ideas forward and be at the front of whatever they think the new era of computing is. You clearly see this with the AVP. This "spatial computing" nonsense and when they kept saying an iPad is the new computer. I am sorry, but I can get way more real work done on my desktop PC than I could ever get done on an iPad with a big phone OS or a beta AR headset and waving my hands around. Apple will continue to push these new paradigms forward and will continue to skate to where the money is. This means that us criticizing macOS and Mac's and comparing them to Windows will just be left in the void. While we continue to complain about window management in macOS and having to buy or use a third party program to achieve the same functionality as in Windows, Apple will be busy trying to sell us on the idea of putting a headset on our heads and waving our hands around to move pin windows to areas floating in front of us.
Good thoughts there. I appreciate that.

IMO, we're seeing the twilight years of the desktop personal computer... emphasis on "personal". Both Apple and Microsoft are moving toward the smartphonification of the desktop. Not just in theming and user interface, but in removing end-user control over what can be changed.

The latest versions of Mac OS and Windows provide very little in the way of end-user personalization. The goal is to make the desktop an appliance. Whether it is smartphones, smartwatches, tablets, or VR, they'll push ANYTHING that isn't the desktop. The more a technology relies on the cloud, the more they'll push it.
 
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I bought a Lenovo P14s recently, amazing price (1K) for an 8 core AMD Ryzen 7 series, 64GB RAM, 1TB SSD, OLED display.

I returned it after two days, even with a fresh windows install and updated drivers, it dropped frames on YouTube and had other various issues.

I sit here typing on my MBP and honestly, nothing else really fits the bill. I manage a Windows (with a few linux servers thrown in) environment and still prefer my Mac. Im glad there are choices, I was a Windows and Android guy for many years, Apple still just suits me better.
 
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...IMO, we're seeing the twilight years of the desktop personal computer... emphasis on "personal". ...

The more a technology relies on the cloud, the more they'll push it.
I hope not. But it is very possible that is the direction. So Apple's new line of minimalistic and power saving machines, could fit in better than the power hungry gaming PCs.

nVidia just had a presentation. Jensen Huang said that AI will not retrieve information, that was already prerecorded. Instead it will be generated, and one will get the answer one wants. He did not say, the correct answer.
Which I found odd. If I search for an answer, I will want the correct answers, and not an answer tailor-made for me.

"The future is generativ" Jensen Huang. And he mentioned AI's Inference Ability

Like I said earlier: Even if I do not like it, nor agree with it.
I do still have some hope, that Apple will continue to give us personal computers

AI Compute.png

nVidia AI
 
I would love to agree with this, but when they pivoted to Services as a future revenue growth driver, they fundamentally corrupted the incentives for the whole company

They are no longer, as a primary goal, in pursuit of what drew so many of us to Apple in the first place

(best, most polished products, hardware, OS, ecosystem eventually, full integration)

So -- is that "the right thing, at the right time"?
I guess if massaging the stock price endlessly up is the goal ... sure? maybe?
I guess we just see things fundamentally different because to me, Apple has always had services.
They’re structured a little differently now, but they’ve always been there.
iTunes movie, music and TV show purchases/rentals? A service.
$99 a year .mac and mobile me? A service.
Yearly paid iLife, iWork and macOS upgrades? A service.

The only difference is, now you pay a small monthly fee instead of a large annual upgrade fee, or (in the case of some of their old professional applications) a very high, almost unattainable (for most people) price.
 
Good thoughts there. I appreciate that.

IMO, we're seeing the twilight years of the desktop personal computer... emphasis on "personal". Both Apple and Microsoft are moving toward the smartphonification of the desktop. Not just in theming and user interface, but in removing end-user control over what can be changed.

The latest versions of Mac OS and Windows provide very little in the way of end-user personalization. The goal is to make the desktop an appliance. Whether it is smartphones, smartwatches, tablets, or VR, they'll push ANYTHING that isn't the desktop. The more a technology relies on the cloud, the more they'll push it.
The push to cloud-based computing is not new, and it's almost 20 years ago now that computing appliances gave way to internet appliances. I think it happened first in France, with a consumer box for the home which wasn't all that popular, but set the scene for net-based systems being touted by many - just not a very practical idea since at the time broadband was still quite sparse, and speeds were often at the Mbit/sec level with DSL rather than fast enough to sustain what we have today.

It is of course worth bearing in mind that there are still many in the US alone who remain tied to dialup or satellite internet since broadband buildout hasn't reached everywhere yet.

But I suspect it was the netbook craze of what was that, 2008? which was the first serious try to move computing to the internet, followed when those failed, by Chromebooks, which are the worst of all possible world, except for cheap.

Any serious costings will show that subscription models for stuff are far more profitable than traditional purchase and ownership. In that sense I commend Apple for the fact that you can live quite comfortably outside the subscription model, even if iWorks was rather ruined by the stripping of a range of features. There were things you could do with Pages, Numbers, Keynote and iMovie which were quite stunning in productivity and creative terms, and never a clear reason for dumbing it all down to over-simplified functions in over-hyped revisions that took a raft of productive tools away from the user, never to be given back.

Apple's move to the cloud for their services hadn't been trialed or even teased at that point. Today, even Apple haven't monetized the cloud all that effectively - yet. But they clearly so know that over time, the iPhone is the user's platform of choice for 'computing'. The lack of storage management makes it the perfect tool for selling content and media via the cloud. However, I can't see any practical way that an iPhone could at present be the core of a business IT infrastructure, and to a large extent that does determine the direction of travel in the computing marketplace.

What I can see is the gradual shift in emphasis towards portable/mobile/low energy devices, which might signal a focus on laptops, but as long as businesses are producing documents and accounts, real computers are going to be with us. At least for now.

It's not the hardware that I find a depressing prospect, but the software.
 
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