Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Well here is something else,


?
This isn't actually news. In the security and threat intelligence community, this particular vulnerability has been known about for 2 years. It isn't the first time a theoretical vulnerability has been studied and reported on, even if there are no known vectors to exploit it. The common practice is for researchers to identify the threat, and report it to the specific manufacturer or vendors for mitigation. In this case Apple, who don't report what they're doing about it, but have generally been very responsive to the threat intelligence community in these circumstances.

You could take a look at https://arstechnica.com/information...-six-generations-of-intel-pc-and-server-cpus/ for one example of a previous threat, and in fact even that isn't the first time Intel CPUs have been reported to have intrinsic security holes. The original of its type (https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/201...odern-processor-has-unfixable-security-flaws/) caused havoc in corporate networks and huge potential data losses in 2018, and is still being exploited now.

The sad fact is that no data on any device which has access upstream to the internet, even if indirectly, is truly secure. It takes constant work by many thousands of information security specialists to try and keep data safe, but it only takes one single 'bad guy' to get in - often by pure luck.

It isn't that these attack vectors aren't a big deal, but they are inevitable. Sadly, it isn't until you've built an actual 'product' that you can find all the ways in or out of it. Simulations only get you so far.
 
The DOJ is looking at the US and this is a legal issue for the US and US consumers so it doesn't really have anything to do with the rest of the world since this decision will only have bearing in the USA.;) Also Apple is an American company and therefore subject to US law. It is certainly possible that a US law imposed on Apple could affect their business practices around the world but this isn't a EU or other world court legal issue.

Gaming consoles are NOT nearly as important as a phone. Phones literally connect us with the world around us and if we don't have a phone work properly or communication is limited between devices it could become a safety issue in emergencies.
Bending the narrative & meaning of words as one straddles along…
 
  • Like
Reactions: millerj123
This isn't actually news. In the security and threat intelligence community, this particular vulnerability has been known about for 2 years. It isn't the first time a theoretical vulnerability has been studied and reported on, even if there are no known vectors to exploit it. The common practice is for researchers to identify the threat, and report it to the specific manufacturer or vendors for mitigation. In this case Apple, who don't report what they're doing about it, but have generally been very responsive to the threat intelligence community in these circumstances.

You could take a look at https://arstechnica.com/information...-six-generations-of-intel-pc-and-server-cpus/ for one example of a previous threat, and in fact even that isn't the first time Intel CPUs have been reported to have intrinsic security holes. The original of its type (https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/201...odern-processor-has-unfixable-security-flaws/) caused havoc in corporate networks and huge potential data losses in 2018, and is still being exploited now.

The sad fact is that no data on any device which has access upstream to the internet, even if indirectly, is truly secure. It takes constant work by many thousands of information security specialists to try and keep data safe, but it only takes one single 'bad guy' to get in - often by pure luck.

It isn't that these attack vectors aren't a big deal, but they are inevitable. Sadly, it isn't until you've built an actual 'product' that you can find all the ways in or out of it. Simulations only get you so far.
So, as of right now though, 12th, 13th, or 14th gen intel are fine and only M3 are good with Apple Silicon. Correct?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Technerd108
So, as of right now though, 12th, 13th, or 14th gen intel are fine and only M3 are good with Apple Silicon. Correct?
It actually depends on what 'good' means. In absolute terms it isn't certain. Mitigation strategies by Intel/Apple and Microsoft changed the landscape to some degree, but it isn't clear how effectively because we're dealing with theoretical vectors in the latest generations of chips, as opposed to known and exploited vectors previously in the Meltdown/Spectre incidents.

Realistically, given computer architectures, any data being moved onboard a system can be intercepted if you can get a form of code in the right place to read it - which makes the notion of a 'secure CPU', whether Intel, AMD or Apple Silicon is a bit fanciful.

Intel and Apple on the hardware side, and Microsoft and Apple on the OS side have been working to harden processes and perimeters so that even theoretical vectors are increasingly difficult to practically exploit, but the overall landscape isn't good if - as should be the case - you look at the threat to data more holistically.

That's about the human aspect of data security, the ease of exploiting the weak and weakest links in data management and security, and the fact that even when we are careful, cautious and defensive, many entities which gather and possess our data are rather less concerned to keep it safe than we may be.

I have to say that my area isn't CPU architecture and their theoretical vulnerabilities but perimeter security to prevent internal vulnerabilities being exploited, and mitigate the risks. To give it a perspective, a lot of us had almost accidentally mitigated the Meltdown/Spectre problem at the perimeter before it even happened.
 
If the numbers in https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...ac-sales.2422550/?post=33029985#post-33029985 are correct ?

I retract my previous argument that Apple could be doing "the right thing, at the right time".
The extremely low number of Apple desktop sale leaves me dumbfounded. With so many arguing that mac mini/studio with the Studio Display IS the new iMac 27"

Alas, I suppose Apple is pricing itself out of the market, with the high cost of every upgrade, that can only be done at the time of order. And for not being better tuned in on the economic reality for the middle class.
 
I suppose Apple is pricing itself out of the market, with the high cost of every upgrade, that can only be done at the time of order.
I suppose that is due to technical reasons.
The Apple Silicon is that fast because Apple has got rid of all hardware abstraction technologies used in PCs that ensured compatiblity and upgradabilty at the cost of efficiency.
(northbridge/southbridge chipsets, memory interfaces, NVMe to SSD cells).
That is damn efficient and super fast, at the other side you need a kernel that is exactly tailored to each machine configuration.
That is the way it always was done in smartphones/tablets, which were not upgradable either.
 
  • Love
Reactions: Cape Dave
The Apple Silicon is that fast because Apple has got rid of all hardware abstraction technologies used in PCs that ensured compatiblity and upgradabilty at the cost of efficiency.

Simply not true w/ regard to storage
There are PCs shipping with socketed NVMe that is faster than Apple SSDs

And the overall "pricing folks out" is totally a choice by Apple
They are charging 5-10x markups over market pricing for RAM & SSD upgrades

It's just out of control greed if we are being honest here
 
Simply not true w/ regard to storage
There are PCs shipping with socketed NVMe that is faster than Apple SSDs

And the overall "pricing folks out" is totally a choice by Apple
They are charging 5-10x markups over market pricing for RAM & SSD upgrades

It's just out of control greed if we are being honest here
I was not speaking about the price, but only about the unability to upgrade.
And that newer NVMes might overperform Apple's SSD is no demonstation that the direct access way is not more efficient. The overall performance rules.
A current Mac is designed like a smartphone/tablet: with a dedicated kernel.
That is definitively the speciality of Apple to build hardware and software together.
 
I was not speaking about the price, but only about the unability to upgrade.
And that newer NVMes might overperform Apple's SSD is no demonstation that the direct access way is not more efficient. The overall performance rules.
A current Mac is designed like a smartphone/tablet: with a dedicated kernel.
That is definitively the speciality of Apple to build hardware and software together.
Yet the devices are poorly optimized considering.

Custom drivers on Windows essentially are like building the software and hardware together. Optimization for a general OS is independent of the hardware. If Windows PC's weren't properly optimized because the software wasn't custom built for the hardware no one would buy them.

The fact is Apple does the same thing. You are saying that all the software features/drivers are kernel level?? I don't think that is the case. Obviously there is hardware kernel optimization for m series chips but the hardware would be run by the OS and software drivers made just for the Mac. In Windows the OS runs the hardware with the help of custome drivers from each OEM. Do you not think OEM's test Windows builds before they release a device? Make sure all the drivers work and are optimized for the hardware?

I am sure Microsoft works closely with OEM's and the hardware running on Windows.

So the entire optimization thing is a bit hyped in my opinion and can be overcome with faster and better hardware on Windows laptops and desktops.
 
I am sure Microsoft works closely with OEM's and the hardware running on Windows.
Really not so much. There's an abstraction layer between the hardware and Windows, and MS provide all the data vendors need in order to write the drivers that interface their devices with that layer. Microsoft themselves have almost zero (apparent) interest in hardware, and it's the hardware vendor who is responsible for how their device presents itself to the abstraction layer. All MS do is ensure that all the hooks into that layer are visible to device manager.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Technerd108
Really not so much. There's an abstraction layer between the hardware and Windows, and MS provide all the data vendors need in order to write the drivers that interface their devices with that layer. Microsoft themselves have almost zero (apparent) interest in hardware, and it's the hardware vendor who is responsible for how their device presents itself to the abstraction layer. All MS do is ensure that all the hooks into that layer are visible to device manager.
Except for Surface products why would Microsoft take interest in what most OEM's are doing?

I even said it is the OEM responsible for hardware optimization?

However, that is not to say that Microsoft doesn't have partners like Samsung and many other OEM's and will work with them in order to promote a feature in Windows like Copilot.

On my Samsung laptop I have a dedicated Copilot button while another new Windows laptop I have doesn't. It seems that Samsung and Microsoft worked together to deliver a feature and experience in Windows devices.

So while I am not disputing what you are saying entirely, I think that you are making it seem that since Microsoft doesn't work with every OEM on every piece of hardware that they all horribly optimized and that just isn't true. Maybe Apple can eek out a bit of speed over a Windows laptop simply because of the tight integration and design of hardware and software that Apple has. But it is not a significant difference. It is also way over exaggerated by Apple and Google fans.
 
  • Like
Reactions: turbineseaplane
I suppose that is due to technical reasons.
The Apple Silicon is that fast because Apple has got rid of all hardware abstraction technologies used in PCs that ensured compatiblity and upgradabilty at the cost of efficiency.
(northbridge/southbridge chipsets, memory interfaces, NVMe to SSD cells).
That is damn efficient and super fast, at the other side you need a kernel that is exactly tailored to each machine configuration.
That is the way it always was done in smartphones/tablets, which were not upgradable either.
I don't know. Intel and AMD use a special fabric that is very fast to connect the cpu to other parts of the x86 SOC and I know they are using fabrics like this to connect soldiered ram and ssd. And soldiered ram and ssd also speed things up and offer more bandwidth without being a part of the SOC itself.

Again I think Apple overstates and overcharges for the privilege of their ram. It is fast and the unified architecture is pretty brilliant but it has it's own side of limitations due to the design. So there are trade offs. If you like the Apple trade offs then I get it. If you don't mind the cost I also get it. It is worth it.

All I am saying is ram speeds on Windows side increase rapidly year over year and that speed is faster than Apple so you will see faster ram in new Windows laptops than Apples ram but because of the unified architecture there are advantages for Mac's but if I can get a lot more ram a lot cheaper on Windows side then again I can compensate for any advantage and still save money?

And who wkows what we will see with new Arm on Windows devices and the type and speed ram they will have and how Qualcomm SOC handles the ram, gpu, and ssd speeds. Interesting times!!
 
"Researchers say this process doesn't leak the security keys outright, but a bad actor would be able to trick machines into leaking security keys overtime. They developed an attack to exploit the vulnerability called GoFetch, which only requires the same permissions as any other third-party app on your Mac. Once in, GoFetch will run on the same area of your M1 chip as a cryptography app, and over time, target and reveal a security key. Depending on the type of key, it may take GoFetch anywhere from 10 hours to as little as 54 minutes to reveal the key."

From the following article,


I don't know but this is pretty serious. I would be kind of worried if I had a Mac right now genuinely. Intel was able to partially block Spectre with a software patch so maybe Apple can do the same thing although it will affect performance most likely. A guess a reason to upgrade the M1/M2 to M4. Lol At least Apple can harden the prefetch or side channel somehow in future Apple silicon releases but it might not even make it until M5 since I am sure M4 is already way past planning and into at least pre production phase but who knows. I hope they can address it in the hardware as soon as possible!

Intel and AMD had their time. They are not perfect either and I think older Intel like 12th gen or earlier may be affected too. I think though the prefetch is different in Intel so that it can't be read but the attack can still happen.
 
Last edited:
If the numbers in https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...ac-sales.2422550/?post=33029985#post-33029985 are correct ?

I retract my previous argument that Apple could be doing "the right thing, at the right time".
The extremely low number of Apple desktop sale leaves me dumbfounded. With so many arguing that mac mini/studio with the Studio Display IS the new iMac 27"

Alas, I suppose Apple is pricing itself out of the market, with the high cost of every upgrade, that can only be done at the time of order. And for not being better tuned in on the economic reality for the middle class.
Not only does Apple price itself out the market it locks itself out of the market with it walled garden approach. Another factor is the Mac is far from Apple's number on priority although of recent they do seem to be taking a greater interest.

Most individuals & companies want flexibility in the desktop computing environment, Apple on the other hand is ever looking for ways to pen it's users in...

Q-6
 
You are saying that all the software features/drivers are kernel level?
No, i am not saying the ALL the software features/drivers are kernel level.
But the very primitive functions like writing/reading to storage and the RAM/ Graphics management are.
And –of course– one can increase performance with even faster hardware, but at a cost: power consumption.
Having less "man-in-the-middle chips" with a custom tailored kernel is the way Apple goes.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Cape Dave
I would love to have that lump of coal, explain how he feels the BTO is better than post purchase upgrading for Apple devices, such as laptops, mac pro, mac mini, monitors, ipads, phones, just think of the upgrades you would buy, I would have bought the M1 macbook pro, if it was viable to upgrade, it was not, so I bought the air....

How is BTO better than post purchase? If it is about the chip/motherboard, anything related to design, that is not a viable excuse, that is lazy incompetent engineering, or incompetent leadership, either both..
 
The Apple Silicon is that fast because Apple has got rid of all hardware abstraction technologies used in PCs that ensured compatiblity and upgradabilty at the cost of efficiency.

It depends on what you mean by fast and compared to what. I switch between an M2 Pro Mac Mini with 16GB RAM and my PC with an i5-13400, RTX3060 and 32GB RAM. My 1TB SSDs are fast, but not as fast as the Mac Mini.

I use my Mac Mini for terminal work and web development. Nothing that pushes it close to anything unreasonable. But every time I switch to my Windows PC, the difference is clear regarding the speed of operations between them.

I'm not saying the Mac Mini is slow by any means; it's just that when I use it and switch over, it's very noticeable how quickly everything happens. Then again, when I switch back, it feels like the Mini is lagging.

Without the PC to compare, I wouldn't have an issue with the Mini's speed, to be fair. I just never understand people who claim to have better PC rigs than I do but say the performance is so much worse than a Mac because of M chips. Not saying that is what you're saying just to be clear.
 
It depends on what you mean by fast and compared to what. I switch between an M2 Pro Mac Mini with 16GB RAM and my PC with an i5-13400, RTX3060 and 32GB RAM. My 1TB SSDs are fast, but not as fast as the Mac Mini.

I use my Mac Mini for terminal work and web development. Nothing that pushes it close to anything unreasonable. But every time I switch to my Windows PC, the difference is clear regarding the speed of operations between them.

I'm not saying the Mac Mini is slow by any means; it's just that when I use it and switch over, it's very noticeable how quickly everything happens. Then again, when I switch back, it feels like the Mini is lagging.

Without the PC to compare, I wouldn't have an issue with the Mini's speed, to be fair. I just

never understand people who claim to have better PC rigs than I do but say the performance is so much worse than a Mac because of M chips. Not saying that is what you're saying just to be clear.

These claims often come from people who only use one platform or who mostly use one platform over another.

I have an M2 MBA with 16gb ram and 512gb ssd that I have sold but is waiting to be shipped as the buyer wanted it on a certain date. I have a hp spectre with Intel ultra 7 155h, 32gb ram, and 2 tb ssd and it is faster than my MBA in every way. It gets about 8-12 hours SOT with 85% brightness depending on workload. The new chips are great a low power tasks like streaming. My MBA will get maybe 14-16 hours SOT same brightness so it is a significant difference but as long as I get a solid 8 hours on a heavy day that is good enough.

M3 Pro and up is another ballgame and Apple has a decent lead in performance and efficiency. But Qualcomm and arm on Windows could be disruptive. If they push the sane level of performance as M3 Pro and have similar efficiency then it could be a game changer for a lot of people.

Look Apple has made a lot of advancements over the years. They leapfrogged everyone else but the competition is coming and when Apple's process advantage erodes we will see if they can still stay ahead of the competition or not?
 
I would love to have that lump of coal, explain how he feels the BTO is better than post purchase upgrading for Apple devices, such as laptops, mac pro, mac mini, monitors, ipads, phones, just think of the upgrades you would buy, I would have bought the M1 macbook pro, if it was viable to upgrade, it was not, so I bought the air....

How is BTO better than post purchase? If it is about the chip/motherboard, anything related to design, that is not a viable excuse, that is lazy incompetent engineering, or incompetent leadership, either both..
Very easily it's better for Apple and it's shareholders and that's Tim Cook's job. While many of us here dont like some of the aspects of Apple's HW/SW design there's no doubts they understand their intended audience...

Q-6
 
  • Like
Reactions: Technerd108
Very easily it's better for Apple and it's shareholders and that's Tim Cook's job. While many of us here dont like some of the aspects of Apple's HW/SW design there's no doubts they understand their intended audience...

Q-6
Intended audience? No I think lumpo is doing what he wants regardless, I just think of the products and upgrades not bought, wonder why Apple want to make a crappy underpowered device, that many know is crappy and underpowered, why? Why not at least try? Where is the harm? Or is lumpo just so devoid of courage that he cannot make the decision??
 
Intended audience? No I think lumpo is doing what he wants regardless, I just think of the products and upgrades not bought, wonder why Apple want to make a crappy underpowered device, that many know is crappy and underpowered, why? Why not at least try? Where is the harm? Or is lumpo just so devoid of courage that he cannot make the decision??
I'm pretty confident he can make decisions and knows exactly what he's doing. Upsetting a minority of customers is of no consequence to him or Apple in general. As much as I'd like to Apple be actually more sustainable and design their products with repair and upgradeability in mind it's never going to happen unless legislation is put in place...

Q-6
 
  • Like
Reactions: Technerd108
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.