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lol How do you explain all of the countries that controlled the pandemic? There are dozens of examples; hundreds if you count all of the countries doing a better job than us (admittedly, that's all of them).

I feel like you're standing in front of an airport telling me it's impossible for airplanes to fly. There's evidence to disprove your point all around you. You just need to look (beyond the borders of the USA).


Give me some examples, I want a dozen. Likely it will be answered, the Govt didn't intervene and people were handled it with common sense. Something you sound like you want Govt to provide for you...But yeah, if you're referring to what happened in NY under Cuomo's leadership I agree with you 100%.
 
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I agree completely. We couldn't even convince enough people to stay home and watch Netflix for a few weeks, or even wear a mask when grocery shopping.

Now try to imagine the same "my freedoms!" people abiding by rations, blackouts, conscription, etc. in the event we were attacked by a foreign country. Imagine the sacrifices Americans made during WWII compared what's being asked of us today. We should be ashamed; what even happened to America?

And we've already lost more Americans to covid than some wars in our recent history, so the comparison is apt. Thank you for making it.


Those are the people you will be begging to protect you when the War comes, trust me, all while you sympathhize with that country....You're afraid, so YOU stay home and watch Netflix. Everyone else has a life to lead, Church to go to, and money to be made and capable of thinking without your help.
 
I agree completely. We couldn't even convince enough people to stay home and watch Netflix for a few weeks, or even wear a mask when grocery shopping.

Now try to imagine the same "my freedoms!" people abiding by rations, blackouts, conscription, etc. in the event we were attacked by a foreign country. Imagine the sacrifices Americans made during WWII compared what's being asked of us today. We should be ashamed; what even happened to America?

And we've already lost more Americans to covid than some wars in our recent history, so the comparison is apt. Thank you for making it.
Take a look at the categories in this link, then extrapolate the number of people working within them. Those are just the bare minimum of people that work and travel regardless of any local dictates that tell people to stay home.


Staying home and cowering does nothing towards stemming the tide of COVID. Heck, in NY State, they found that most of the new COVID infections were from people staying home! Yes, Cuomo said as much. Stay home if you want, but it does nothing but hurt you for not particpating in life.
 
I won't be using it either, but for entirely different reasons.

First off, those that insist that it is designed to not track or identify individuals are correct. I've read enough of the technical documentation to understand that much. I also trust Apple to keep Google honest on this effort.

What concerns me most about the app and one reason I won't use it is that, it is a foot the door to a slippery slope, one of which if we let it go too far, we can never undo. The current iteration of the app is fine, but what about the next, or the one after that?

But primarily why I won't use it is because it has no valid use to me. I've been in 44 states since the virus became known, and have been in contact with literally thousands of people. I know I've been exposed to COVID, probably many, many times. It would be statistically impossible for me to not have been. I don't need an app to tell me that. I distance, stay away from outwardly sick people and wear a mask indoors. That is enough for me. I'm fine.

I do see a valid use for the app, and that is for the vulnerable out there due to medical conditions. They can use some help.
So you admit that there is no privacy concern here, and you admit that the app is incredibly useful to the 75% of the US population who has one or more of the "pre-existing conditions" which increase their susceptibility to the short-term effects of this virus. Good!

Now, let's build on that. How do you imagine this being useful to high-risk individuals if only those who think they are high-risk use it?

As you've read and understood the technical approach of the exposure notification system, I trust you are also technically literate enough to know what "network effects" are. But let me boil it down for you. Contact tracing doesn't protect the person who has the disease (it is too late for that obviously), nor so much the person who they came in contact with (although they might receive earlier treatment); contact tracing saves the potential contacts of the maybe-uninfected contact. So, let's put a vulnerable person there.

Call her Sally Jones, who is a grandmother (elderly: risk factor 1) who is overweight (risk factor 2, affecting bout 30% of US adults). Tomorrow night Sally is going to sit down to dinner with Abby Jones, her grandaughter. Abby has no risk factors that she knows of. Abby was sitting on a park bench having a nice conversation with Fred Smith two days ago, who also thinks he is a "low risk" individual but actually has undiagnosed hyptertension (his risk factor, which affects well over 50% of US adults even though it is positively diagnosed only in about half that, 25%). Fred, in turn, is at home with a fever and just got a call from his doctor confirming his positive COVID test. Unbeknownst to her, Abby had breathed in a large enough number of virus particles to have started an infection of COVID herself, for which she is not (yet) showing any symptoms.

Now, if exposure notifications were ubiquitous, Abby would get an immediate notification on her phone saying she had been in prolonged contact with an infected individual in the past couple days. She would, being a loving granddaughter, respectfully and regretfully call off her dinner with Sally. Two days from now, perhaps Abby takes a test prophylactically, or perhaps she starts showing symptoms and takes a test. She quite likely has saved Sally's life. Happy ending!

But if Fred isn't in contact tracing, because he doesn't know he has hypertension, then none of this happens and Sally ends up infected. Same thing if Abby declines contact tracing because she accurately thinks she has no risk factors and doesn't regard herself as a "frequent" visitor to her overweight grandmother.

This is a classic case of network effects. The more people are in the system, the more effective it will be. Bowing out because, selfishly, the system doesn't directly benefit you, is sociopathic.

Moreover, let's talk about Abby. When she has a low-impact "just a heavy cold" bout with COVID, is that all that happened? We know from the medical literature already that in many cases the long-term effects of COVID end up being more significant than the short-term effects. Those include cardiovascular issues from system-wide blood-clots, "brain fog" and other neurological issues, recurring lethargy, etc, that last at least months ("at least" because there are a good number of people who have been living with these "secondary" symptoms now for nine months and we don't know if they will ever go away).

All in all, please reconsider. You know there is literally no downside here, and have admitted as much. The only downside is the potential that someday someone might use this program being successful as justification for a system that really does have problems. That is, you think future people will just lose all ability to think this through themselves. Is that "slippery slope fallacy" so compelling to you that it outweighs the disease and deaths that you acknowledge will happen if contact tracing isn't successful?
 
I agree—if they had launched this feature in May, they would deserve more credit. But what they released in late May required public health agencies to develop their own apps to utilize the API, and that was doomed from the beginning.

It was never realistic to expect governments to rapidly develop an app AND convince enough people to proactively download it. Look how hard it still is for governments to enable this feature (ahem, California) without an app, and convince people to enable it. Every hurdle is a nail in the coffin with programs like this, and what Apple released in May required two. It was insurmountable, as we saw.

The difference between May -> September is what really killed any chance this was going to work.
Even if they launched the app-less notification system in May, it doesn't mean California would have had this feature earlier. It sounds like the slow link is California, not Apple. Otherwise we would have seen wide release of Android apps earlier as well too.
 
So you admit that there is no privacy concern here, and you admit that the app is incredibly useful to the 75% of the US population who has one or more of the "pre-existing conditions" which increase their susceptibility to the short-term effects of this virus. Good!

Now, let's build on that. How do you imagine this being useful to high-risk individuals if only those who think they are high-risk use it?

As you've read and understood the technical approach of the exposure notification system, I trust you are also technically literate enough to know what "network effects" are. But let me boil it down for you. Contact tracing doesn't protect the person who has the disease (it is too late for that obviously), nor so much the person who they came in contact with (although they might receive earlier treatment); contact tracing saves the potential contacts of the maybe-uninfected contact. So, let's put a vulnerable person there.

Call her Sally Jones, who is a grandmother (elderly: risk factor 1) who is overweight (risk factor 2, affecting bout 30% of US adults). Tomorrow night Sally is going to sit down to dinner with Abby Jones, her grandaughter. Abby has no risk factors that she knows of. Abby was sitting on a park bench having a nice conversation with Fred Smith two days ago, who also thinks he is a "low risk" individual but actually has undiagnosed hyptertension (his risk factor, which affects well over 50% of US adults even though it is positively diagnosed only in about half that, 25%). Fred, in turn, is at home with a fever and just got a call from his doctor confirming his positive COVID test. Unbeknownst to her, Abby had breathed in a large enough number of virus particles to have started an infection of COVID herself, for which she is not (yet) showing any symptoms.

Now, if exposure notifications were ubiquitous, Abby would get an immediate notification on her phone saying she had been in prolonged contact with an infected individual in the past couple days. She would, being a loving granddaughter, respectfully and regretfully call off her dinner with Sally. Two days from now, perhaps Abby takes a test prophylactically, or perhaps she starts showing symptoms and takes a test. She quite likely has saved Sally's life. Happy ending!

But if Fred isn't in contact tracing, because he doesn't know he has hypertension, then none of this happens and Sally ends up infected. Same thing if Abby declines contact tracing because she accurately thinks she has no risk factors and doesn't regard herself as a "frequent" visitor to her overweight grandmother.

This is a classic case of network effects. The more people are in the system, the more effective it will be. Bowing out because, selfishly, the system doesn't directly benefit you, is sociopathic.

Moreover, let's talk about Abby. When she has a low-impact "just a heavy cold" bout with COVID, is that all that happened? We know from the medical literature already that in many cases the long-term effects of COVID end up being more significant than the short-term effects. Those include cardiovascular issues from system-wide blood-clots, "brain fog" and other neurological issues, recurring lethargy, etc, that last at least months ("at least" because there are a good number of people who have been living with these "secondary" symptoms now for nine months and we don't know if they will ever go away).

All in all, please reconsider. You know there is literally no downside here, and have admitted as much. The only downside is the potential that someday someone might use this program being successful as justification for a system that really does have problems. That is, you think future people will just lose all ability to think this through themselves. Is that "slippery slope fallacy" so compelling to you that it outweighs the disease and deaths that you acknowledge will happen if contact tracing isn't successful?
Sorry brother, but analogies make my eyes bleed. I've never been able to read them--too distracting.

I don't see why I should reconsider. You may have missed where I said I travel just a bit. Most jurisdictions I'm in don't have an app, don't have people that want and app, and like I said, I'm just traveling through. If I was in CA full time, I may reconsider.

Regarding your stab about "sociopathic", well that is just uncalled for. You take this too personally.
 
Give me some examples, I want a dozen. Likely it will be answered, the Govt didn't intervene and people were handled it with common sense. Something you sound like you want Govt to provide for you...But yeah, if you're referring to what happened in NY under Cuomo's leadership I agree with you 100%.
You said it is impossible to control a pandemic; that requires one example to disprove.

Here you go: Tsai Ing-wen, Taiwan’s Covid Crusher / How Taiwan beat the coronavirus

Taiwan is a democracy, a close ally of the US, and they're experiencing economic growth this year because they took the necessary steps to control the pandemic. It absolutely involved govt intervention, coordination, and leadership.

If you really want a dozen examples I'm confident you've already heard of them and are capable of doing that research yourself. South Korea, New Zealand, Australia, to name a few. How many airplanes do you need to see takeoff before you believe they can fly?
 
You said it is impossible to control a pandemic; that requires one example to disprove.

Here you go: Tsai Ing-wen, Taiwan’s Covid Crusher / How Taiwan beat the coronavirus

Taiwan is a democracy, a close ally of the US, and they're experiencing economic growth this year because they took the necessary steps to control the pandemic. It absolutely involved govt intervention, coordination, and leadership.

If you really want a dozen examples I'm confident you've already heard of them and are capable of doing that research yourself. South Korea, New Zealand, Australia, to name a few. How many airplanes do you need to see takeoff before you believe they can fly?
I think your point and links point out a bigger problem than covid. Those societies are unified and cohesive, much more so than the USA. We are not there and not heading there, unfortunately. The simplest things can't be agreed upon anymore.
 
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Even if they launched the app-less notification system in May, it doesn't mean California would have had this feature earlier. It sounds like the slow link is California, not Apple. Otherwise we would have seen wide release of Android apps earlier as well too.
Undoubtedly California was slow. But I think Apple contributed to that by waiting too long. (I'm also not suggesting Google was any better.)

Governments respond to public pressure. But by the time Apple released this in September, public interest was practically nonexistent. So there was no public pressure, and it's understandable (not defensible) that California never prioritized it.

I think it would have been different had this all been done before fatigue gripped the nation. It's a shame all around.
 
It's unfortunately the case for you in the US it seems, when you have people in power at the top who just want to play golf and do stuff all at doing what they can in their final days for the greater good.
Ummm each state has to implement this. The POTUS cannot force it on anyone. It's really convenient to just blame Trump for everything, but that doesn't apply here. Good feel-good post though.
 
You said it is impossible to control a pandemic; that requires one example to disprove.

Here you go: Tsai Ing-wen, Taiwan’s Covid Crusher / How Taiwan beat the coronavirus

Taiwan is a democracy, a close ally of the US, and they're experiencing economic growth this year because they took the necessary steps to control the pandemic. It absolutely involved govt intervention, coordination, and leadership.

If you really want a dozen examples I'm confident you've already heard of them and are capable of doing that research yourself. South Korea, New Zealand, Australia, to name a few. How many airplanes do you need to see takeoff before you believe they can fly?


Taiwan? Seriously? A country of 23 million people compared to 330 million? A country formally under Marshall law for as long as I can remember. A country who likely held the PPE for themselves before we got any..Rationalize much? Listen I am not saying we aren't capable of considering what others have had success with, but to point to Taiwan and say SEE, America is a failure is just asinine. This is America dude, just because they have Democracy doesn't mean they are have our version of Democracy and the same cultural values..Let's be honest though, America is full of freedom loving red necks and quietly you blame them for this. The reality is they'd be so much cooler to hang out with than you.

Americans do NOT trust Govt, and they don't generally trust fellas like you either, and I dig that about this place. America is a meritocracy, founded on individual liberty in the context of conflict, every man for himself to survive, it's how it works. Like it or not, that plays into this argument, and how successful we are in dealing with a Pandemic. We should all watch out for one another, I don't disagree with that. If the left didn't frown upon being a God faring good citizen and person, we'd probably all be on the same page with this thing, but that's taboo too... I don't want Govt or YOU telling me how to live my life, period. I can handle it better, by all means go about your day and do your part if you're scared stay home.
 
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I think your point and links point out a bigger problem than covid. Those societies are unified and cohesive, much more so than the USA. We are not there and not heading there, unfortunately. The simplest things can't be agreed upon anymore.
I certainly agree that is a huge part of it. And I certainly agree we're headed in the wrong direction in that respect.

But I don't believe it was impossible to unite the country in February/March. Not unlike George W. Bush after 9/11. But the reality is we didn't have a leader who even tried.

The success stories are all countries with a strong leader and public willing to participate. But this isn't a comparison of sacrifice: Americans have sacrificed so much more than those who live in the countries we're calling a success (obviously this is generalized). This is ultimately a comparison of the competence of our leadership, and the fact that our government didn't step up to the plate (or we didn't let them, you choose).
 
Please stop it with this. It’s completely irrelevant. you can put anything you want on a death certificate. It doesn’t change the absurd number of excess deaths that just so happen to correspond with the time the virus has been in the US.
You are literally comparing 1 year to this year and the comparison is extremely high level. Have you ever done analytics for a living? This flimsy relationship doesn't fly. You have to actually understand the data and dig into to make conclusions. Even then, nothing is 100% certain.
 
You're not understanding how many of us 100% distrust anything the government or big tech says. And when they're working together, then we really don't trust them.
You are certainly entitled not to use the service, even though you didn't bother to make attempts at producing any evidence.

But I certainly hope that you will do your part by social distancing and wear masks when going to public places.
 
It doesn't need to be an apples-to-apples comparison to still be relevant and informative.

And in this case—when the difference is orders of magnitude in both deaths and cases—it's telling enough.

Taiwan and South Korea (both free democracies, I might add) have both had fewer than 1,000 deaths. They're both very populated, very dense, and even after you adjust for population, it's clear that geography isn't the difference between 7 deaths (Taiwan) and ~290,000 (USA).


Against which race, exactly?

Was it when I said that I didn't believe anything coming out of Asian countries? Oh, that was you.
In the context of Asian "official" reporting? Absolutely. You attacked American intelligence, blatantly. I am Asian, lol.

Yeah, you're making my point. The conclusion that Taiwan has SEVEN deaths from this because they say so is comical and absurd.

South Korea is literally 1% the size of the US and is FAR easier to control. Similar story with Taiwan. It ABSOLUTELY matters where a country is, how big it is, who is there, and how they report and manage the situation. Have you been to South Korea? I have. It's dramatically different and NOT a free democracy like the US in any real sense.

Thinking you can implement ANYTHING close to what South Korea did in the US is totally insane. The US population alone is dramatically different the S. Korea.
 
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I certainly agree that is a huge part of it. And I certainly agree we're headed in the wrong direction in that respect.

But I don't believe it was impossible to unite the country in February/March. Not unlike George W. Bush after 9/11. But the reality is we didn't have a leader who even tried.

The success stories are all countries with a strong leader and public willing to participate. But this isn't a comparison of sacrifice: Americans have sacrificed so much more than those who live in the countries we're calling a success (obviously this is generalized). This is ultimately a comparison of the competence of our leadership, and the fact that our government didn't step up to the plate (or we didn't let them, you choose).
Absolutely hilarious you think any "leadership" changes the will of Americans to do whatever they want AND change the enormous geographical and cultural problems the US faces, unlike any Asian country. Let's not even talk about the lying from a government like China. You believe their numbers, yet they lied about this virus itself for months? OK.

BTW...Western Europe's numbers SUCK. This isn't America only.

We have a new President who BTW was second in command when H1N1 ripped completely unchecked through America. Let's see what he does. He's already backpedaling on mask mandates bc he knows people don't want that.

The coveted CDC estimates there were as many as 90M cases of H1N1 in a SINGLE YEAR! What was done to stop it? Almost nothing. They were simply lucky that it wasn't as deadly or at least wasn't managed and reported the same way, so it just kind of ran its course and no one cared.

I'm also not dense enough to think a different "leader"would have dramatically reduced the 90M cases, but I don't believe for a second those 90M cases couldn't have been responsible for more deaths if they were counted the same way as Covid.

80% of H1N1 deaths were also people under 65, making those deaths more tragic than the 60%+ over 75 in the case of Covid (with other conditions present). I guess the 12,000 young people in America that died from H1N1 weren't worth saving?
 
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Americans do NOT trust Govt, and they don't generally trust fellas like you either, and I dig that about this place. America is a meritocracy, founded on individual liberty in the context of conflict, every man for himself to survive, it's how it works. Like it or not, that plays into this argument, and how successful we are in dealing with a Pandemic. We should all watch out for one another, I don't disagree with that. If the left didn't frown upon being a God faring good citizen and person, we'd probably all be on the same page with this thing, but that's taboo too... I don't want Govt or YOU telling me how to live my life, period.
The thing is, I think you're exactly right. The attitude you describe is exactly what tanked our economy and killed hundreds of thousands of Americans.

That's a high cost for spite. Was it worth it?

In the context of Asian "official" reporting? Absolutely. You attacked American intelligence, blatantly. I am Asian, lol.
I didn't attack all American intelligence. You, however, are lumping all Asian countries together and saying they can't be trusted.

Yeah, you're making my point. The conclusion that Taiwan has SEVEN deaths from this because they say so is comical and absurd.

South Korea is literally 1% the size of the US and is FAR easier to control. Similar story with Taiwan. It ABSOLUTELY matters where a country is, how big it is, and how they report and manage the situation. Have you been to South Korea? I have. It's dramatically different and NOT a free democracy like the US in any real sense.
I have in fact. And Taiwan too.

Next are you going to tell me that New Zealand isn't a "real" democracy either? (I've been there too.)
 
I want a notification when a hypocrite Democrat violates their own restrictions on me about outside and inside dining.
They are the biggest threat to society with their fascism. :mad:

By the way, I checked the menu at The French Laundry in Napa Valley. I think Bread & Better is only $35. Tim Cook probably eats there!
How about a notification when your Republican dictator lies? That damn notification will be a non-stop alarm.
Maybe one when extreme-right conspiracy theorists keep whining baseless claims about fraudulent elections? Mute button.

The biggest threat to our democracy is your party. What happened to the Patriots? You want to paint the Democrats a certain way? Look in the mirror.
 
We have a new President who BTW was second in command when H1N1 ripped completely unchecked through America. Let's see what he does. He's already backpedaling on mask mandates bc he knows people don't want that.

The coveted CDC estimates there were as many as 90M cases of that. What was done to stop it? Almost nothing. They were simply lucky that it wasn't as deadly or at least wasn't managed and reported the same way, so it just kind of ran its course and no one cared.
Wow, I didn't think real people were actually using this terrible argument.

The response to a disease is dependent upon how deadly the disease is. Isn't that obvious? H1N1 wasn't as deadly (not even comparable), therefore the same measures didn't need to be taken. Besides, PLENTY was done for H1N1.

Just wait until you find out how many cases of the common cold there are every year. AnD wE dO AlMosT noThInG!!!
 
I wonder if it would be easier to track who hasn't been infected.

I'll assume this is a joke...but just in case anyone is unaware of the data, the numbers are as follows:
  • 3.42% of the state population of CA has tested positive.
  • 1.49% of the positive cases in CA have resulted in a death.
    • The total number of positive "cases" in CA is: 1,366,435
    • The total number of individuals who died from or with COVID in CA is: 19,935
Sources:
California Population 2020 (Demographics, Maps, Graphs) (worldpopulationreview.com), COVID-19 Testing - Datasets - California Open Data
 
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Wow, I didn't think real people were actually using this terrible argument.

The response to a disease is dependent upon how deadly the disease is. Isn't that obvious? H1N1 wasn't as deadly (not even comparable), therefore the same measures didn't need to be taken. Besides, PLENTY was done for H1N1.

Just wait until you find out how many cases of the common cold there are every year. AnD wE dO AlMosT noThInG!!!
Influenza has killed more ppl than Covid since we found the first strain. Have you asked yourself why we do nothing to close to stop those deaths? Have you asked why the media doesn't have a flu tracker? Of course not. You're cool with it because no one told you to freak out. Over 60,000 have died in a year from the freaking flu, with a vaccine. Seems pretty dangerous to me.

H1N1 was a virus that spread and didn't get the same media hype as Covid, which got TREMENDOUS hype before even 400 people died. It had a life of its own very early on and snowballed since.

So H1N1 didn't kill anyone? Again, why are you cool with a certain number of deaths, but not another, higher number? What's your cutoff?

Again, H1N1 was a total failure and that administration lucked out it turned out relatively low on the deaths count. I doubt the death numbers for H1N1 were counted the same as Covid, too. Only makes logical sense that if 90M people had H1N1, a fair number of those died with H1N1 and could be stretched to counted as an H1N1 death, much like Covid has.
 
I didn't see you produce any evidence to the contrary genius...Man, to know there are idiots out there who blindly think these companies and Govt have their interests in mind is scary to me. Shows a fundamental flaw in the way you were educated.

BTW, I won't do any of what you ask because you asked me to do it, I will do it because I have an ENTIRE brain and don't need anyone to tell me what to do. Snowflakes on the other hand are delicate.
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