Could the nMP have been discontinued?

[Larry-K]

But it will be, whether you like it or not. That is the most relevant point here. The fact that people in governments are discussing this, already should tell you that this is a reality.

So just leave California! You are in California, right?
[doublepost=1474059547][/doublepost]

With the Mac Clones the motivating factor was low price, not expandability or hardware. A lot of people buy Mac for the operating system as much as the hardware. You can't get that on IBM compatibles. If you start building a premium brand PC with MacOS close to price of Apples offerings, would they really sell as much rather than buying the real thing?

Not so, My SuperMac J700 was much more thoughtfully designed, and expandable than it's Mac counterpart.

I don't remember the price, but it was not my main concern.

Several of the clones were just faster, and that was their main appeal.

 

[deconstruct60]

With the Mac Clones the motivating factor was low price, not expandability or hardware.

Errrr, no. The driver behind Mac Clones was the notion that Macs needed to be 15-25% (over larger ) of the overall PC market to be viable long term. It wasn't 'low price' but lower margin and very low volume segments that Apple was hoping the Clones would expand the Mac share into. In the war on Windows the Clones were suppose to turn help turn back the tide. Like the Star Wars Clone wars .... that isn't what the Clone did when push came to shove.

The problem was the Clone vendors really didn't do that (expand at the edges). They came into the same more reasonably profitable areas that Apple was trying to clean up. By Apple reports, the vendors used "below cost' ROMs (essentially core OS) to undermine the markets that Apple wanted to keep for itself and there was little to no expansion into the corners that Windows was more entrenched in. There was little to no share expansion and basically "race to the bottom" on margins and pricing.

Same tar pit still exists. The notion that the Clone vendors will be satisfied with some small, strictly dictated by Apple side pond to operate in is dubious. If more freely licensed to build the "box with slots" Macs it is highly likely a vendor like HP or Dell would take smaller form factor "box with slot" and attack the iMac rather than stay solely focused on just in the >$4,000 zone that the Dual Package Mac Pro normally lived. Even more likely would attack the single CPU package market if Apple held onto the current Mac Pro target. ( it already happened in the previous Clone experiment. Same constraints will extremely likely produce the same results. )

There isn't the huge wall between software and hardware folks tap dance around when actually get to implementation. Same issue of how much the charge for the bundled OS would come up. Apple would either need to charge full costs ( including overhead ) for the additional resources on support, R&D on the software. Apple isn't going to buy into the "pages and pages" of BTO options approach. Dell and HP like vendors are unlikely to want to pay for all driver support breath they are promoting.

You view the former Clone context in a "but we got cheaper Macs" viewpoint, but it really misses the fundamental inhibiting dynamics of that as a solution.

A lot of people buy Mac for the operating system as much as the hardware.

Apples primary objective is that people are buying it for both. They are coupled and just work. Even more so now when Apple does not sell the OS unbundled at all. The OS license is bound to that Mac. The hardware and software are point of one thing.

You can't get that on IBM compatibles.

IBM compatibles.... What is this the late 80's? Windows. And yes you can buy a software-hardware combo from Microsoft if you want. ( Microsoft is currently clowning the stagnant MBA

with an about to turn 1 year old Surface Pro 4 model. )

If you start building a premium brand PC with MacOS close to price of Apples offerings, would they really sell as much rather than buying the real thing?

If you sell the notion that this "Clone" is just as highly integrated solution package as a Apple Mac then you will have a problem. If it is cheaper then folks will move. If Apple rises the notion that it isn't as well integrated and not a holistic solution .... than is it even a Mac ? Some Mac like thing that isn't quite a Mac. How is that better than Windows?

If it is more expensive that before , then even less competitive against Windows/Linux so what significant market share are actually retaining ? The notion that Apple has to hold onto every scrap of market share possible to survive is unmotivated by the results over the last 15+ years. Apple targeting a profitable 6-7% subset of the PC market has worked quite well. In terms of profitably, actually better than any of the proposed clone vendors ( HP , Dell, etc have done. ). You are extremely unlikely to convince the folks who have made tons of money with the strategy to shift gears. The "be everything to everybody" strategy really hasn't worked out all that well for the competitors versus Apple's results. Apple doesn't have to "kill" Android or Windows to survive.

 

[deconstruct60]

Who said they were based on facts? The problem is no one has any facts because Apple hasn't seen fit to provide any form of guidance.

There are several fact around for people with even marginal critical thinking skills.


1. Apple's past behavior.

Apple has not picked WWDC once in the entire span Mac Pro ( Intel based) product existence for a truly new device available for order. It his right there plain as day in the buyers guide:

https://buyersguide.macrumors.com//#Mac


Dec 2013

Jun 2012 ( really a speed bump. the Model 5,1 mac became the Model 5,1 mac. All their competitors were launching new designs.... Apple had nothing. )

Jul 2010

Mar 2009

Jan 2008

Apr 2007

So given Apple's decade long track record of not producing a Mac Pro at WWDC what is the huge motivation to lead to it happening this year? The track recored is a fact. The pattern of non June is a fact. Inference off of those two facts and have high expectations of a Mac Pro at WWDC..... only if you are smoking something.

2. Apple's release policy of decoupling products from 'fixed in time" trade shows.

Apple formerly backed out of feeling obligated to do something "exciting" for MacWorld in 2009 but the decoupling policy was already running at that point.
http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2008/12/16Apple-Announces-Its-Last-Year-at-Macworld.html

WWDC has a relatively fixed schedule but it primarily suppose to be about the devlopers and their relationsihp to Apple's interfaces. If relevant products are ready? Great. if not, no big deal. The "must have" drop here is new Beta Software, not finished product.

iPod being a holiday season skewed device created a defacto fixed window event for Apple to hit. So they could 100% get rid of a yearly product event. Then need to have something lined up for the Holiday buying season. But that has been iPods and now iOS/iPhone. Macs at what is the premier annual iOS event. Why? With a limited (< 2hr ) budget why spend time on that. If didn't have 2hrs of material, needed filler, and Mac happened to be ready ... then maybe, but how likely is that they don't have iOS material when it is the order of magnitude larger segment of their business?

Having said that I think you misunderstand what those lines in the sand were. It goes something like this:

May 2016:

Q: I want to buy a Mac Pro but the current offering is dated and not even discounted. Should I buy or wait until Apple releases a new version?

A: No one knows when (or if) Apple will release a new Mac Pro. However WWDC is right around the corner so I would wait until after that to see if there's an announcement.

As pointed out above everyone could now what the history of Mac Pro release are. Apple doesn't target WWDC. WWDC isn't made or broke on a Mac Pro.

The only thing that would sync the Mac Pro up with WWDC is the the product was ready to go.

Intel Xeon E5 1600 v4 release did line up with WWDC. However, 1600 v4 had slipped a couple of times already. ( you can find folks points at intel's old roadmaps last fall of v4 arriving in Q4 15 when it did. ). The GPUs were up in the air at that point too. No big rumbles out of NAB.

In contrast for several years (until last two ) Intel would announce new laptop solutions a a week or two before WWDC. And surprise , surprise, surprise new Mac laptops would come around WWDC. WWDC wasn't the real trigger there. It was was the earlier show coupled with Intel marking that as a volume release point. At that point Apple had what they needed and so released.


Apple buys a relatively narrow subset of the Intel, AMD, and Nvidia catalog. If there are no updates to those parts in a certain part of the year the likelihood of a new Mac release is quite small. They aren't going to 'save' releases for an extended period of time to make a bigger splash at the two relatively fixed events they hold.

July 2016 (with no announcement of a new Mac Pro at WWDC):

Q: I want to buy a Mac Pro but the current offering is dated and not even discounted. Should I buy or wait until Apple releases a new version?

apple doesn't discount based on time. It is like expecting IBM to come out with a new flying car announcement. They haven't done it so why expect it now? There have been very few exceptions where Apple has reset ( iPhone drop after ~3 months ). It is not something "normal" to be waited on. Why? because it hasn't happened. There is a decade long track record to back that up.

A: No one knows when (or if) Apple will release a new Mac Pro. However the new iPhone launch is right around the corner so I would wait until after that to see if there's an announcement.

That is clueless answer. Why is going to spend 30 seconds talking about Macs at an designated iPhone event?

A: No one knows when (or if) Apple will release a new Mac Pro. However October is right around the corner so I would wait until after that to see if there's an announcement.

Chuckle. That is actually the one after the two strawman likely to fail that actually has some basis to it. What a shocker... it is being set up to fail. *cough*. Let's look at the factual track record in the buyers guide (search for 'Oct ' on the mac buyers guide page.)

2015 new Mac in October? Yes.
2014 new Mac in October? Yes.
2013 new mac in October? Yes.
2012 new Mac in October? Yes.
2011 new Mac in October? Yes.
2010 new Mac in October? Yes.
2009 new Mac in October? Yes.
2008 new Mac in October? Yes.


The same Mac product every year? No. Some Mac Product .... the track record speaks for itself.
This year may be a bust. Timing wise for the Intel updates the most nature fit is the MacBook but it was bumped not all that long ago. However, the MBP could go without waiting for gen 7 chips since two behind. ( and the gen6 quad Iris Pro the MBP uses, while announced by Intel in Q1 '16, have been extreme rare in the wild. Few others had them either. )

Even if Apple had a dismally small team doing Macs they could slap a gen 7 into the MacBook ( pin compatible) and just release something with minimal effort. Probably not since several relatively creditable leaks on Macrumors for anyone bothering to look that new MBP enclosures are showing up with pictures. Kuo has tagged them as coming. etc.

The difference is at no point in Apple's past have they had a "No buy" recommendation for all of the Macintosh products.

Including now. The MacBook is at Neutral which is not a "No Buy". It means that it is out. Buy if you need it.

People are, rightly so, concerned about Apple's commitment to the platform. It's not just M.R. where this is happening. It's happening all over the web.

OK move the goal posts off the Mac Pro... chuckle. OK Mac wide.

1. As a horrible sky is falling thing, is in large part a tech spec porn crowd thing...... Sales of Macs have not cratered permanently.

https://www.macrumors.com/2016/08/10/mac-notebook-sales-2q16-trendforce/

Off in Q1, but back on track in Q2 in laptops. In another macurmors article... Down about 600K units in Apple's Q3 results. yes more people are waiting on a refresh. If decent one comes in October Apple will be made whole rather quickly.


2. When Intel gets off of the hiccup trail and actually hitting their roadmaps. And AMD is largely hitting their roadmaps on time ( has yet to happen since Zen is now largely being positioned as a 2017 thing. ) then Apple having hiccups will be much more significant. Now, it is partially a tempest in a teacup.

Users are also buying at slower frequencies which means Apple is going to update slower. It isn't just a unidirectional event.



There should be some concerns.

a. I think Macs should get a reasonable set of dedicated product design resources. Ive's crew is a choke point. Not just on Macs but I think there are signs it is a choke point on all of Apple's line up. The print money aspects of the iPhone has somewhat papered over this .... but the iPad has been jacked up too. Just look at the iPad mini 2 sitting in the line up.
With the iPad repricing at the iOS event it looks like Apple is lining up to roll through Holiday season with no more revisions. Apple TV is about to get rolled past by with 2nd generation 4K capable units from its competitors.
Airport ... again being pasted up. Apple Home still largely stumbling around. Apple Music still working to get the interface right.

It would be nice when Ive and his crew roll off to their new Spaceship design lab that someone else given space on the old one so Apple isn't so "Univisioned".

I don't see this as a Mac issue. It is can Apple walk and chew gum at the same time issue.


b. The Mac Pro is being held up as much due to software issues than it is new hardware refresh. The reboot in compute API from OpenCL to Metal is something have to address before follow on to the inital version is going to get traction. Also in context where push more computation down to the GPU are the design constraints going to work? [ Not that have to go back old form factor. But doesn't look like rigorous thought has been put into the entire scope of what need to make this work. ] Hiding in the slush fund of iOS gaming is a poor view onto the world of cross platform computation. or cross platform graphics. Apple seems to be buying their head in the sand (or money pit coins) on this one.[/quote][/quote]

.c Apple should pick AMD and give them shot at integrated CPU. Like the revise the classic MBP if going to keep that around much longer. Or take Mac Mini off by itself instead of being MBP "hand me down" parts.

[ iPhones split modems between intel and Qualcomms. Tooooo long on one vendor and really don't have a two vendors competing. ]

 

[ssgbryan]

With the Mac Clones the motivating factor was low price, not expandability or hardware. A lot of people buy Mac for the operating system as much as the hardware. You can't get that on IBM compatibles. If you start building a premium brand PC with MacOS close to price of Apples offerings, would they really sell as much rather than buying the real thing?

Speak for yourself - I bought mine because I could stuff more cards in it and the PowerPC chips were faster than what Apple offered. Lower prices were a bonus.

 

[Thunderbird]

Why was the 1000 day party thread locked and archived?

 

[JesperA]

Why was the 1000 day party thread locked and archived?

How many days does your parties last? The party was several days ago, everyone should have sobered up right about now

 

[ITguy2016]

There are several fact around for people with even marginal critical thinking skills.


1. Apple's past behavior.

Apple has not picked WWDC once in the entire span Mac Pro ( Intel based) product existence for a truly new device available for order. It his right there plain as day in the buyers guide:

Uh, Apple revealed the new Mac Pro at the 2013 WWDC. Now what was that about critical thinking skills?

 

[goMac]

Uh, Apple revealed the new Mac Pro at the 2013 WWDC. Now what was that about critical thinking skills?

While I agree that Apple typically doesn't do Mac Pro releases at WWDC, it's also worth noting that the original Mac Pro was revealed at WWDC2006.

 

[ITguy2016]

While I agree that Apple typically doesn't do Mac Pro releases at WWDC, it's also worth noting that the original Mac Pro was revealed at WWDC2006.

The question was:

"...what is the huge motivation to lead to it happening this year?"

The answer is: The last announcement for a new Mac Pro came at WWDC. Lacking any other direction from Apple people were speculating Apple might announce a new Mac Pro this WWDC. Note the key words "speculate" and "might". Despite deconstruct60 attempted strawman no where did I see anyone claim, based on facts, that Apple would announce one this past WWDC. Likewise, despite deconstruct60 claim otherwise, there is in fact precedence Apple has chosen WWDC to announce a new Mac Pro.

 

[pat500000]

Probably silent update.

 

[rawweb]

...

 

[AidenShaw]

Uh, Apple revealed the new Mac Pro at the 2013 WWDC. Now what was that about critical thinking skills?

While I agree that Apple typically doesn't do Mac Pro releases at WWDC, it's also worth noting that the original Mac Pro was revealed at WWDC2006.

Neither of those were available for order.

The MP6,1 didn't ship until the very end of the year, and the first Intel systems were Pentium-based advanced development systems not available to the public.

 

[deconstruct60]

Uh, Apple revealed the new Mac Pro at the 2013 WWDC. Now what was that about critical thinking skills?

Still a demonstration of suspect critical thinking skills.

Apple announced the discontinuation of the then current Mac Pro form factor at the WWDC. They put no specific date at all on the upcoming 2013 other than somewhat in the same year. If yapping about "time to buy" information there wasn't any substantive information there. What was there was a solid indication that if you wanted the now old form factor you had a limited time window to buy one. Probably more than a Quarter so even those with protracted purchase order cycles had time if did not delay.

It was just as much of a "we are still working... just glacially slow" as the 2012 WWDC Mac Pro info. It wasn't a new, available product upgrade.

 

[ITguy2016]

Neither of those were available for order.

The MP6,1 didn't ship until the very end of the year, and the first Intel systems were Pentium-based advanced development systems not available to the public.

So what? I don't believe anyone said it had to be shipping. In fact I specifically used the word "announced". I guarantee you if Apple would have announced a new Mac Pro at this years WWDC people would be very, very happy (assuming it would ship in a reasonable time frame).

 

[goMac]

Neither of those were available for order.

The Mac Pro started shipping at WWDC2006.

 

[ITguy2016]

Still a demonstration of suspect critical thinking skills.

On your part.

Apple announced the discontinuation of the then current Mac Pro form factor at the WWDC.

By announcing a new Mac Pro.

They put no specific date at all on the upcoming 2013 other than somewhat in the same year.

So what? What matters is Apple announced a new Mac Pro at WWDC. You asked:

"...what is the huge motivation to lead to it happening this year?"

The answer is: It has happened in the past with the most recent being the current Mac Pro.

If yapping about "time to buy" information there wasn't any substantive information there. What was there was a solid indication that if you wanted the now old form factor you had a limited time window to buy one. Probably more than a Quarter so even those with protracted purchase order cycles had time if did not delay

It was just as much of a "we are still working... just glacially slow" as the 2012 WWDC Mac Pro info. It wasn't a new, available product.

Irrelevant to the question you asked and I answered.
[doublepost=1474316403][/doublepost]

The Mac Pro started shipping at WWDC2006.

Whether it was / is shipping is irrelevant to the question. deconstruct60 is moving the goal posts from "Why would people expect Apple to announce a new Mac Pro at WWDC" to "Why would people expect Apple to ship a new Mac Pro at WWDC. I'd guess 99.9% of Mac Pro users would be happy for Apple to have had announced a new Mac Pro at this years WWDC. Likewise I'm sure they would welcome Apple shipping a new Mac Pro at this years WWDC. However the latter isn't what is the topic being discussed except in deconstruct60's strawman.

 

[goMac]

Whether it was / is shipping is irrelevant to the question. deconstruct60 is moving the goal posts from "Why would people expect Apple to announce a new Mac Pro at WWDC" to "Why would people expect Apple to ship a new Mac Pro at WWDC. I'd guess 99.9% of Mac Pro users would be happy for Apple to have had announced a new Mac Pro at this years WWDC. Likewise I'm sure they would welcome Apple shipping a new Mac Pro at this years WWDC. However the latter isn't what is the topic being discussed except in deconstruct60's strawman.

NAB is where you more typically get hints about a new Mac Pro under NDA at first, and then a release later this year.

There were whispers out of NAB this year, but like previous years, never any leaks.

Usually the Mac Pro announcements are pivoted towards Pro app people, not developers. And even though we know a major FCPX update is coming it hasn't been announced yet. So we aren't really due for the Mac Pro announcement yet.

If Apple launches a major FCPX update without saying anything about the Mac Pro, then it's time to start panicking.

 

[ITguy2016]

NAB is where you more typically get hints about a new Mac Pro under NDA at first, and then a release later this year.

There were whispers out of NAB this year, but like previous years, never any leaks.

Usually the Mac Pro announcements are pivoted towards Pro app people, not developers. And even though we know a major FCPX update is coming it hasn't been announced yet. So we aren't really due for the Mac Pro announcement yet.

If Apple launches a major FCPX update without saying anything about the Mac Pro, then it's time to start panicking.

Yes but that doesn't change the fact that Apple has, in the past, announced new Mac Pro computers at WWDC. deconstruct60 wanted to know why people (I am not one of said people) would think Apple might announce a new Mac Pro at this years WWDC. The answer is simple: They've done it in the past. End of story.

 

[OS6-OSX]

Why was the 1000 day party thread locked and archived?

A very good question. As you see there was zero explanation. Any explanation would have been trying to justify an unjustifiable position. it was a thread where you could post that did not "derail" other threads. Threads that are so redundant they should have been sent to the "wasteland" after 5 pages like the 1000 day party. No rhyme or reason. Reminds you of decisions like the ones at Apple!

 

[AidenShaw]

Whether it was / is shipping is irrelevant to the question. deconstruct60 is moving the goal posts from "Why would people expect Apple to announce a new Mac Pro at WWDC" to "Why would people expect Apple to ship a new Mac Pro at WWDC."

dec's comment was "Apple has not picked WWDC once in the entire span Mac Pro ( Intel based) product existence for a truly new device available for order".

You are trying to twist his comment completely. (Hint, when he said "critical thinking" maybe you should have actually parsed his statement.)

MacWorld SF 2013 was a preview of a not even spec'd future system - no timeline.

The first Intel development machines never shipped with a SKU, and were never available in any form for open purchase.

dec laid a trap by posing a specific statement, and y'all fell into it by trying to apply it to very different actions. Admit it - you've been rick-rolled.

 

[ITguy2016]

dec's comment was "Apple has not picked WWDC once in the entire span Mac Pro ( Intel based) product existence for a truly new device available for order".

You are trying to twist his comment completely. (Hint, when he said "critical thinking" maybe you should have actually parsed his statement.)

MacWorld SF 2013 was a preview of a not even spec'd future system - no timeline.

The first Intel development machines never shipped with a SKU, and were never available in any form for open purchase.

Show me once where >>> I <<< claimed the product must be "available for order". I clearly, and repeatedly, said announced. Unless you can show where >>> I <<< made said "available for order" it's end of story. Now what was that about critical thinking? Hint: It first starts with reading comprehension.

dec laid a trap by posing a specific statement, and y'all fell into it by trying to apply it to very different actions. Admit it - you've been rick-rolled.

He tried and failed. Note where I said "Who cares?" and followed it with a statement saying they announced. I caught it, I restated I said announced.

 

[Bubba Satori]

Why was the 1000 day party thread locked and archived?

The 1,000th day has come and gone.
The 1,100 day Mac Pro holiday extravaganza will be announced in due time.
I'm trying to find my grandmother's recipe for rum soaked fruitcake first.
Stay tuned.

 

[filmak]

Aren't all these without a real point?
WWDC or not, the result is the same till now.

 

[flat five]

submissive woofer

 

[ITguy2016]

Aren't all these without a real point?
WWDC or not, the result is the same till now.

If you go back to post #209 you'll see how this all got kicked off. In essence your comment is correct...this years WWDC is now over (as mentioned in post #209). Unfortunately someone had to take us down the rabbit hole for some unknown reason.