Could Todays Mac Pro Announcement Be a Sign of Whats to Come for the MacBook Pro

[leman]

In what way was the 2012 to 2015 MacBook Pro not already portable? If portability is a priority, wouldn't the standard Retina MacBook Pro take precedent over something targeted at Professional customers?

Arguments ad absurdum usually don't make a good argument. Please don't trivialise things. Of course one needs to maintain a balance of portability and features. The point of the 2016 models is that they offer the same class performance (fastest available CPUs and fast low-power GPU) as any MacBook Pro before them, while improving connectivity AND mobility. Thats the message: you don't need to sacrifice either portability nor performance, you can have both.

For a professional content creator, portability is the last thing when it comes to the MacBook Pro

Then those content creators should buy a workstation laptop aka. desktop replacement. Please stop acting like content creators are the only users who buy Macs. Not to mention that the MacBook Pro, just like the PowerBook before it, has always targeted the thin-and-light category.

Please stop claiming that content creators are the only Mac users. Most people who buy a laptop actually need a laptop.

but purposely designing the MacBook Pro where you limit its performance with low power DDR3 memory, bottom of line graphics, smaller battery, thinner design and so-so mechanical keyboard is not making a product intended for professionals attractive.

You must be very confused. The DDR3 memory in the MBP is just as fast as the DDR4 currently used in laptops (same clock, same or lower latency). Its just more energy efficient and overall more "premium". The CPUs are the fastest available (unlike cheaper options that other companies like Dell, Microsoft etc. are pushing on you). The GPU is a custom version of the fastest chip AMD has to offer to date, while focusing on stability and pro-level features. External connectivity is the best of any laptop ever.

P.S. Also, please stop using bold font. Its impolite at best.

Portability doesn't have to be achieved by making the laptop thinner.

The point here is not thinner but the volume. The MBP offers same class components but dramatically reduces the volume.

How about reducing the bezels (Dell XPS) instead of making the laptop thinner, or doing whatever the magic LG is doing in making their 980g/60Whr battery 15" laptop?

How does reducing the bezels make a laptop more portable? How is Dell XPS more portable? Besides, I wouldn't put the Dell or the LG as examples of good design. The Dell tries to impress the customer with the top-quality display panel, which is sadly based on desktop display tech and consumes insane amounts of power (which makes it a poor choice for a laptop).

Even though the latter isn't retina or as high performance as MBP, the mere existence of a 15" laptop under 1 kg implies there's a large room for improvement in portability NOT involving thinness.

The volume of the LG is overall comparable to the 15" MBP (same thickness, width, height), but LG can cram in a larger battery and make things lighter by a) avoiding using any high-performance parts (15W CPU, no GPU) — so no cooling or high-quality PSU required and b) using a standard-DPI display. So the "LG magic" just boils down to "remove every ounce of performance and just fill all the space with the battery". This is also where the majority of savings comes from: heatsinks, capacitors and coils weight a substantial amount. Not necessarily worth following IMO. Although magnesium alloy probably helps too.

The thinness fetish brings about so many compromises -- harder to engineer batteries, harder to engineer thermal constraints, needing to introduce the controversial keyboard, removal of certain legacy ports, etc...

This is certainly true. But then again, excellence in engineering is what Apple is doing. These days, Dell can make a computer like the MBP was few years ago (even though Dell doesn't really have the elegant cooling trick out). To show that they still got it, Apple needs to go a step further. Otherwise, they will simply degrade to yet another computer manufacturer. For Apple, this would be deadly, as there would be no "special reason" to even look at their products. This has already happened earlier btw, and Apple almost ceased to exist.

 

[SteveJUAE]

Good point. May be talking about the end of 2016, which his remarks about Mac sales do seem to fit. The part about the MBP is in quotes, so he probably got that from Schiller or one of the other Apple folks he talked to.

Possibly

I only gleamed 2 interesting points out of the OP reference data , if quoted accurately

1) It will be sometime yet before a new MAC PRO emerges (2018 ?)
2) Apple considers around 15% of it's users to be Pro's based on using Apple Pro software on a regular basis

The 2nd point at least gives us some rough guidance towards further sub pro minorities wish list for 2nd gen MBP. These sub groups could be very small indeed maybe only 10k to 50K and to small for Apple to oblige with their wishes.

Well that's my best guess

 

[thesaint024]

Lets all be respectful and friendly about this. These are inanimate objects and whatever you do with your savings is your business. Lets all refrain from insults. If you like the MacBook Pro in its current state, congratulations.

You mean like this:

Instead of trying to excuse a problem by being an unofficial Apple PR ...Your responses so far and actually i have come across in a number of threads go more in the direction of blind loyalty.

or this:

Again, Apple is beginning to listen to the people who matter here. The actual professionals, not the blind loyalist to a cult...

But in response to your reply... what the what are you talking about? You've introduced a lot of comments on things my post didn't mention or argue or imply. Your comments are insulting as hell btw to anyone who doesn't share your exact opinion.

How am reading a lot into this? This is like the biggest story out of Apple in 2017. They invited key journalists and influencer's to Cupertino to apologize and announce future products in the pipeline that won't be out for year.

Clearly crossed signals. I am referring to your reach that admitting a mistake on Mac Pro somehow translates to some future admission that the 2016 MBP was a design mistake. I don't know why you're arguing this is a big story. I didn't mention that one way or another, and it seems irrelevant.

Where did I compare or mention the Mac Pro to an iPhone? I think you are going off track here and looking for some justification for your purchase, which is beginning to look like a big mistake itself. Time will tell of course. I just don't know how you went from Mac Pro to iPhone.

I thought it was an obvious illustration that iPhone is a portable device like some of us think the MBP is. Apparently not obvious enough for some. And justification of MY purchase? Why is it that 2015 MBP owners are so defensive and adamant that the new model the following year is so bad? I think that's obvious too.

To say the 2015 MacBook Pro wasn't meeting most of the requirements of size and weight, not to mention balance, heat management, sound, noise, speed is kinda weird. I think the target group for this product were looking for several things they are also expecting of the Mac Pro: more memory, battery life and smooth integration with their existing infrastructure.

I never said or implied this. I never said anything about the 2015 model being deficient and never have anywhere on this forum. You're projecting some of your own feelings apparently. But are you making an argument that it was good enough and they should have stopped improving in these areas that they did? You can't be serious. You are also making a bold claim on who the target group is based on your interpretation of what "Pro" means.

...Apple is beginning to listen to the people who matter here. The actual professionals, not the blind loyalist to a cult Steve Jobs had to rebuke at Macworld '97, but people who use these things for work.

Had to quote this one again because it is such a bad and insulting comment. I suppose YOU are the one who matters here? My MBP is used for work too, but I'm in a cult because I don't bash the 2016. Again, another logical conclusion.

Lets all be respectful and friendly about this. These are inanimate objects and whatever you do with your savings is your business. Lets all refrain from insults. If you like the MacBook Pro in its current state, congratulations.

Seriously, listen to your own advice and your own bogus plea for decorum. And your use of the bold is really unnecessary and frankly annoying if it hasn't been mentioned to you before. I can't believe I actually spent time addressing your post.
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I thought "sales dollars vs. unit sales" simply gives you the average net unit price which was fractionally higher in 2015 than 2016 as will any other % or ratio of the 2 numbers

I agree the full year sales of Apple (not MAC) was up

As in OP referenced source also noted $25billion and as I noted before I believe the 20% reference etc was for year 2015

Apple returns has no breakdown data on Mac DESKTOP or any other MAC so unless you have insider information we are all just guessing on numbers of individual MACs

The data presented in Apple returns is clear for all to see MAC's net sales were down in 2016 vs 2015 but Q1 2017 is looking better

Sorry, I need to clarify. "sales dollars vs. unit sales" was not meant as a ratio. I meant people commonly use sales dollars, not unit sales, when speaking of "sales".

True, Apple does not report splits of desktops vs. laptops. I believe it is commonly reported by external sources that the split is likely close to 80/20, laptop/desktop. Outside sources can get pretty accurate with the various data out there. To be clear, I am not arguing for or against this split one way or the other.

I agree with the bottomline on Mac sales. Without knowing the splits of the growth and decline between desktops and laptops, can't be sure of the conclusion in that number. There's lots of ways to spin this data positively or negatively, so almost anything that is quoted can be true with the right context.

 

[darkmaxdevil]

Which brings us to the 2016 MacBook Pro itself, which probably is facing a future with similar thermal constraints and limitations.

The 2016 MacBook Pro has way better thermal efficiency than last generation MacBook Pro. What are you talking about here?

 

[The Mercurian]

I think that regardless of any other issue, there has been so much dislike of the keyboard they will have to re-engineer it to some degree. I know some people like it, but alot don't.

 

[maflynn]

I think that regardless of any other issue, there has been so much dislike of the keyboard they will have to re-engineer it to some degree. I know some people like it, but alot don't.

Nope, I don't see that occurring. The keyboard is their baby and they'll stick with it, otherwise changing it out will be an admission that their engineering failed them and Apple isn't really good at admitting mistakes (of course who is honestly)

 

[leman]

I think that regardless of any other issue, there has been so much dislike of the keyboard they will have to re-engineer it to some degree. I know some people like it, but alot don't.

Look at the poll in the neighbour thread: only 1 out of 10 have a strong negative opinion about the new keyboard.

 

[aevan]

Apple admitted today the direction of the cylindrical Mac Pro released in December 2013 turned out to be a major thermal mistake. The company admits, it just does not meet the needs for an important segment of professional customers; especially for those in cinematography and emerging technologies like Virtual Reality.

Which brings us to the 2016 MacBook Pro itself, which probably is facing a future with similar thermal constraints and limitations.

The analysis of the Mac Pro's creation was, they did it because they thought it was cool and because they had the resources to do it. It just wasn't created with customers in mind or with emerging trends.

The 2016 MacBook Pro has turned out to be case of, we make it thinner because it looks cool (aesthetics) and because we can. A popular third party Apple developer on Twitter, Steve Troughton Smith, sent out a poll asking for thoughts on the Touchbar; and the consensus is split 50/50. Comments also reflected many sentiments about it, 'meh, its ok, hardly use it'. Many hate the lack of a physical key, something particularly important to developers. Also, accidental touches turn out to be a constant problem and issues with the large touch pad.

No, and here's why, in very simple terms. Mac Pro is supposed to be a no-compromise modular powerhouse. And they designed the new one to look cool, but it was compromised (no upgradeability, smaller thermal capacity) without any other reason but to be cool. Of course, I'm oversimplifying it for the sake of the discussion.

MBP is a laptop, and laptops make compromises for a good reason - mobility. Laptops are getting lighter because we want them to be more mobile. We also want longer battery life, to be more autonomous. At the same time, we want performance. So, companies balance that out. There are ultra-portable MacBooks that aren't that much powerful. There are these big, hulking laptops with large GPUs, but they aren't that much mobile (Apple doesn't make those and never has). Then there are the MacBook Pros, which are something of a middle-ground. Think what you will of these MBPs, but Apple has actually made a laptop that rivals iMac's overall performance for certain tasks, and at the same time rivals MacBook Air's mobility. The compromises made to achieve that goal were well justified. You don't have to like the new MBP, but you have to understand that some people DO value the reduction in size and weight (and expect the trend to continue, when technology allows it - I want an even lighter and smaller quad-core laptop).

So, that's why you can't compare the two. I don't think anyone would mind if Apple comes out with a large, modular Mac Pro next year, that takes much more space, and is - perhaps - more traditional in design. However, if they made the MBP heavier - that would make quite a few users unhappy (almost none of them are on these forums, so this is something of a bubble with a cognitive bias).


Also, Mac Pro is not a success, while the new MBP is. It's selling great. So there's that.

P.S. The new Mac Pro will be all USB-C. You can bet on it.

 

[The Mercurian]

Nope, I don't see that occurring. The keyboard is their baby and they'll stick with it, otherwise changing it out will be an admission that their engineering failed them and Apple isn't really good at admitting mistakes (of course who is honestly)

Look at the poll in the neighbour thread: only 1 out of 10 have a strong negative opinion about the new keyboard.

I'm not saying they will go back to the old keyboard - but their will be a butterfly keyboard v3. Sorry I don't know what you mean by neighbour thread.

 

[maflynn]

I'm not saying they will go back to the old keyboard - but their will be a butterfly keyboard v3. Sorry I don't know what you mean by neighbour thread.

Yeah, I can see a version 3 that might restore some of the feel of a traditional keyboard and hopefully be more stable, and less prone to failure

 

[aevan]

For a professional content creator, portability is the last thing when it comes to the MacBook Pro. What matters is battery life and performance (memory, CPU, graphics), expandability and reliability. Being portable is just icing on the cake.

Please direct me to the independant study that shows this to be true. Because, I am a professional content creator and mobility is very important to me. I honestly couldn't see myself dragging a 15" from 2011. around. Every generation, Apple makes the MBP more manageable. They finally reached a point where I don't consider my iPad Pro as a mobile replacement, but as a second screen for my MBP, that I feel comfortable carrying around with me, wherever I go.

In other words, I used to rely on just parts of my workflow when I was mobile - I used Procreate on my iPad Pro and used Photoshop at home, but now I just carry both with me in my bag almost wherever I go.

 

[leman]

I'm not saying they will go back to the old keyboard - but their will be a butterfly keyboard v3. Sorry I don't know what you mean by neighbour thread.

There is an owner keyboard satisfaction poll in another thread on the title page. I totally agree with you that there keyboard will and must be updated. They really have to fix the issue with stuck debris. I did manage to fix my space key with compressed air but that can't become a routine.

 

[Steve121178]

Apple admitted today the direction of the cylindrical Mac Pro released in December 2013 turned out to be a major thermal mistake. The company admits, it just does not meet the needs for an important segment of professional customers; especially for those in cinematography and emerging technologies like Virtual Reality.

Which brings us to the 2016 MacBook Pro itself, which probably is facing a future with similar thermal constraints and limitations.

The analysis of the Mac Pro's creation was, they did it because they thought it was cool and because they had the resources to do it. It just wasn't created with customers in mind or with emerging trends.

The 2016 MacBook Pro has turned out to be case of, we make it thinner because it looks cool (aesthetics) and because we can. A popular third party Apple developer on Twitter, Steve Troughton Smith, sent out a poll asking for thoughts on the Touchbar; and the consensus is split 50/50. Comments also reflected many sentiments about it, 'meh, its ok, hardly use it'. Many hate the lack of a physical key, something particularly important to developers. Also, accidental touches turn out to be a constant problem and issues with the large touch pad.

After todays news and what has actually been described as a so-so upgrade for the 2016 MBP; it probably is expected that Apple will also do a uturn on some of the MacBook Pro's design choices.

If they do, expect a return of the previous chassis, possible addition or practical ports like a couple USB 3.1 A ports and the SD card reader.

I think Apple realizing that aesthetics has its limits, and being practical is important and part of being user friendly too. Return of a modular design a good sign.

Lets all be respectful and friendly about this. These are inanimate objects and whatever you do with your savings is your business. Lets all refrain from insults. If you like the MacBook Pro in its current state, congratulations.

All they need to do with the 13" Pro is add a higher capacity battery, add 28w Kaby Lake processors, DDR4 RAM and it's good to go.

For the 15" Pro, they need to offer higher end GPU's, Kaby Lake CPU's, DDR4 RAM & it's good to go.

All Pro machines also need a lower price as the current pricing is obscene.

 

[leman]

For the 15" Pro, they need to offer higher end GPU's, Kaby Lake CPU's, DDR4 RAM & it's good to go.

Only there is no higher-end GPUs currently available. For some reason, Apple and Nvidia are not best friends right now, so I guess that Nvidia is out. And Polaris is the best AMD can offer at the moment, with Polaris 10 simply being too hot for a 15" laptop. As to DDR4, I'm all for it, but what would be the point? Performance-wise, there is no difference at this point. DDR4 will consume more battery, so one would need to increase the battery capacity to keep the current figures.

 

[ascender]

Personally I think the issue with the Mac Pro design is totally different to the perceived problems with the new MBP. Firstly, its clearly an issue which Apple have now admitted - the MBP design has come in for criticism online from some, that's a very different thing. Its also a case of comparing apples to oranges in terms of their expected use-cases and the whole issue of expansion.

I really don't see any similarities between the two and I'm sure any lessons learned with the Mac Pro would have fed in to the new chassis design for the MBP, which, lets face it, will be expected to be the basis of the model for years to come.

 

[Eason85]

The 2016 MacBook Pro has way better thermal efficiency than last generation MacBook Pro. What are you talking about here?

What do you mean by "thermal efficiency"? Throttling is never a good sign.

 

[Mr. Dee]

I don't understand how calling someone blind loyalist disrespectful. People call me a Michael Jackson fanatic, I don't go to HRC demanding justice.

 

[Mefisto]

Ponder the implications of calling someone a "blind loyalist".

Hint: It implies ignorance and refusal to acknowledge reason / facts / whatever, whereas you being called a "MJ fanatic" in this context simply means you very much appreciate someones art.

On the other hand if you see yourself as someone who thinks Micheal Jackson's art is beyond reproach and simply the best thing that ever was or will be, then that's another story.

 

[ascender]

Its probably also worth bearing in mind the difference between subjective and objective, not to mention the fact that a lot of people post in these sort of forums to discuss issues they have with kit rather than to say how everything's just peachy.

Everybody's day to day workflow, use-cases and requirements are going to be slightly different from the next person, so companies like Apple aim for the middle of the field, the majority of the users, otherwise they'd have to make so many different variations of every product to please everybody.

 

[Spudlicious]

blah blah blah. Who cares? Apple is going to do whatever they want to do; they always have. People will buy or they won't . And judging by their current stock price, $144 as of today, April 4th, I'd say people are buying! And they probably always will no matter what technological concoction Apple comes up with next, winner or not.

Just so. Apple have been more than good at running their business, and they've got the valuation to prove it.

 

[thesaint024]

I don't understand how calling someone blind loyalist disrespectful. People call me a Michael Jackson fanatic, I don't go to HRC demanding justice.

Are you for real? Your lack of self awareness (or denial) is staggering. If you want to trivialize your haughty insults as innocent banter and play off your subjective views as objective facts, there isn't much point to having a rational "discussion". And certainly not in a way that you started off your post with the plea to keep it "civil". It doesn't help that you continue down this path with your implication that I am "demanding justice." [dropping virtual mic]

 

[SteveJUAE]

Sorry, I need to clarify. "sales dollars vs. unit sales" was not meant as a ratio. I meant people commonly use sales dollars, not unit sales, when speaking of "sales".

True, Apple does not report splits of desktops vs. laptops. I believe it is commonly reported by external sources that the split is likely close to 80/20, laptop/desktop. Outside sources can get pretty accurate with the various data out there. To be clear, I am not arguing for or against this split one way or the other.

I agree with the bottomline on Mac sales. Without knowing the splits of the growth and decline between desktops and laptops, can't be sure of the conclusion in that number. There's lots of ways to spin this data positively or negatively, so almost anything that is quoted can be true with the right context.

Agreed and thanks for the clarification

I don't mind generalisations and best guess, but it's often misused here to make a point rather than for general conversation

I agree that probably Mac Pro and IMac sales could be down and MBP are likely up not sure where MBA and MB fall though

 

[darkmaxdevil]

What do you mean by "thermal efficiency"? Throttling is never a good sign.

Show me one laptop that not throttling. In many test, the 2016 MacBook Pro suffer less throttling than the one it replaces.

 

[Sanpete]

I think that regardless of any other issue, there has been so much dislike of the keyboard they will have to re-engineer it to some degree. I know some people like it, but alot don't.

I expect they'll try to dampen the sound and keep it more uniform under stress. I don't expect a move away from the basic design, but that could happen too if they can find one that will work as well in the same amount of space.

I don't think they'll be worrying about redesign implying earlier designs were mistakes. Was the keyboard before this one a mistake?

What do you mean by "thermal efficiency"? Throttling is never a good sign.

What throttling? The 2016 is far less prone to throttling than its predecessors. That's the point.

 

[SteveJUAE]

All they need to do with the 13" Pro is add a higher capacity battery, add 28w Kaby Lake processors, DDR4 RAM and it's good to go.

For the 15" Pro, they need to offer higher end GPU's, Kaby Lake CPU's, DDR4 RAM & it's good to go.

All Pro machines also need a lower price as the current pricing is obscene.

I would of been more inclined to agree that the 15" tbMBP should or erred more towards desktop replacement than laptop mobility and battery endurance. Simply as the Pro use requires more time attached to the wall socket and moving from office to office than say eg Starbucks use with the 13" MBP, so compromises in mobility, size and battery could be acceptable.

Now Apple had been quoted as saying their Pro user base (ie using Pro software regularly) is around 15% and a further 15% uses Pro software a few times a month

Therefore it's quite clear now IMO that the 70-85% non pro user base will have a much higher preference for mobility and battery endurance for daily activities on the go etc. The current cofigs of the 13" and 15" fit that bill with still relatively good performance for the maxed out units for the Pro's.

However there does seem a minority group that need more ie a MBP Pro (MBP²) but this small subset of the already small 15%, plus some users who just want the best/most powerful MBP are likely only to be in the 20-100K users. at my best guess

The question is will Apple be able to accommodate this group and at what cost $4-5K. Just to stop some migration to other OEM's and make a few happier.

If the current 15" shell can accommodate a higher spec and other issues (re GPU OEM's) can be sorted it would be nice if Apple could offer a more bespoke MBP², but I' not holding my breath on that one