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darngooddesign

macrumors P6
Jul 4, 2007
18,362
10,114
Atlanta, GA
The TouchBar MacBook Pro is my favorite MacBook Pro apart from my current M1 Max MacBook Pro. I still lament Apple‘s decision to bend to a small, but vocal contingent that just didn’t get it and caused those of us who appreciated this excellent feature to lose out on it. The same thing is happening in this iPadOS macOS conversation where individuals who’ve never built a product (much less an operating system or device ecosystem) insist that they know better than the world’s best product creators and are so blind to their hubris and sense of entitlement that they feel no shame or ridicule in claiming to know better or insisting that Apple should subjugate its product vision and adopt theirs. 🙄
As an outsider to that gen looking in I think there were a couple of reasons it didn't succeed. The lack of a physical Esc key, which they later added back, generated to loudest complaints. It also felt like a feature they created but didn't do anything with, they certainly didn't promote apps like Better Touch Tool to demonstrate the Touchbar's benefits, and they never seemed to add features on an OS level.
 

RLRabb

macrumors regular
Jan 26, 2011
205
223
Stage Manager requires an M1 processor. I have it on my iPad Air 5th gen and use it all the time, a great time saver. But it’s not the same as multitasking, and it won’t allow having two open windows, which would’ve been ideal. Not sure if Apple is aiming for that, which could be the next step if they ever plan to make iPadOS more Mac-like.
What are you saying in the bolded part? You can definitely have two or more open windows of the same app at the same time. Did you mean something else?
 

chcarver_us

macrumors newbie
Jun 14, 2024
3
3
I definitely agree with this one. Multi-account on an iPad is long overdue
My guess is if this happens, then the volume of complaints from purchasers would be pretty high. Because that would mean every application would need a separate application container eating up space uselessly. Then you have complaints of not being to dynamically share applications to reduce space usage. Then there would be complaints of not able to share content between profiles. Then there would be complaints around limiting profile storage capacities. Then you would have confusion of privilege account versus non-privileged accounts, because equal accounts might override other’s profiles. All this for a device with the intentional desire to be single person use device.

I agree though, it would be a nice feature for families.
 
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darngooddesign

macrumors P6
Jul 4, 2007
18,362
10,114
Atlanta, GA
My guess is if this happens, then the volume of complaints from purchasers would be pretty high. Because that would mean every application would need a separate application container eating up space uselessly. Then you have complaints of not being to dynamically share applications to reduce space usage. Then there would be complaints of not able to share content between profiles. Then there would be complaints around limiting profile storage capacities. Then you would have confusion of privilege account versus non-privileged accounts, because equal accounts might override other’s profiles. All this for a device with the intentional desire to be single person use device.

I agree though, it would be a nice feature for families.
I don't think it would be that bad because the point of multiple accounts is that everyone wants their own stuff.

Main account which has admin rights and all extra accounts don't.

Applications could be shared if both accounts have purchased or downloaded the app

Content sharing would be done through the content provider.

I agree the main complaint would be by people who don't have a large enough SSD to support multiple accounts with locally stored media, although it might not be too bad in a world of streaming.
 

masotime

macrumors 68030
Jun 24, 2012
2,865
2,841
San Jose, CA
My guess is if this happens, then the volume of complaints from purchasers would be pretty high. Because that would mean every application would need a separate application container eating up space uselessly. Then you have complaints of not being to dynamically share applications to reduce space usage. Then there would be complaints of not able to share content between profiles. Then there would be complaints around limiting profile storage capacities. Then you would have confusion of privilege account versus non-privileged accounts, because equal accounts might override other’s profiles. All this for a device with the intentional desire to be single person use device.

I agree though, it would be a nice feature for families.
Applications and saved document data lives separately, even now, in iOS / iPadOS. You only need one copy of the application code, and can split document data (for an application) across different users. The sandboxing that iOS / iPadOS provides is very convenient in this respect.

I don’t really get the use case of “sharing content between profiles” though. Or about ”privilege” accounts - macOS / Windows / other desktop platforms don’t have these issues and work fine. Adding multi-user support doesn’t detract from the existing single-user experience - sure it won’t be able to do everything from the get-go, but do you really need that for e.g. guests and/or kids? My guess is probably not… one single high privilege account selectively giving access to a fraction of the available apps to guest / kid accounts - seems good enough for most use cases.

If it’s 2 heavy users involved, they are better off having their own individual iPads…
 

chcarver_us

macrumors newbie
Jun 14, 2024
3
3
Applications and saved document data lives separately, even now, in iOS / iPadOS. You only need one copy of the application code, and can split document data (for an application) across different users. The sandboxing that iOS / iPadOS provides is very convenient in this respect.
Unless I'm mistaken, I have not seen this to be the case, I could be wrong and if so please provide links if possible. User session/login information retains within the application sandbox. So if a user could somehow share an application with another profile, then that data too would need to be segmented. Then all of a sudden people are back at user account administration. When you add or remove an account, then there is the management of session and credentials to manage per app. If you wipe the application, does it pull it from others? If so, what if you want the less to have the app, but you don't want it? In the mind's eye, "sure, how hard can it be, right?" In practice, this is why general purpose OS stink so badly.

Data shows (now I'm talking US families here) the average size of a family is 3, which is down from 4 in the 1960s. (see US Census). The average family owns 2 smart phones and 2 computers, but typically has 10 connected devices; though some reach show upwards of 16. (see PEW Research and Statisa). Of the 10-16 devices, tablets float in the space as not a computer and not a smartphone and can be lumped with TVs and thermostats. (I hopes those stats change to reflect tablets as a personal compute module.) Though it's not hard data as no OEM is supplying this data, one can see most homes have nearly a 1 to 1 ratio of person to computational unit. The trending trajectory will be 2 personal devices per person in the US market in the next 3-5 years. Once again, emphasis on broad spectrum and not catering to demographics or economics.

With this in mind, multi-user accounts was really a means to reduce costs by purchasers, not as a means real functionality unless you are talking about servers. Also, multi-user accounts on platforms is also a ripe attack vector that has been exploited for decades. Look at any OS's security frameworks and it's an unruly mess for such a simple idea of "sharing the soup spoon around the bowl."

Sure, having multiple accounts will help the parents for the grubby hands pawing for the latest Paw Patrol or elementary needing their Doom-slaying fix/hit on another world in Minecraft. But the data just doesn't back the capital investment for such devices warrants the need for multi-account support. Now on shared experiences, like TVs, automobiles, etc. etc.., that makes a lot of sense. But tablets is really a one person device experience during use.

I think iOS 18 will take a bit of pressure off as you can lock down individual apps from those Cheetos powered fingers. It should accomplish the same outcome.
 

rkuo

macrumors 65816
Sep 25, 2010
1,308
955
Unless I'm mistaken, I have not seen this to be the case, I could be wrong and if so please provide links if possible. User session/login information retains within the application sandbox. So if a user could somehow share an application with another profile, then that data too would need to be segmented. Then all of a sudden people are back at user account administration. When you add or remove an account, then there is the management of session and credentials to manage per app. If you wipe the application, does it pull it from others? If so, what if you want the less to have the app, but you don't want it? In the mind's eye, "sure, how hard can it be, right?" In practice, this is why general purpose OS stink so badly.

Data shows (now I'm talking US families here) the average size of a family is 3, which is down from 4 in the 1960s. (see US Census). The average family owns 2 smart phones and 2 computers, but typically has 10 connected devices; though some reach show upwards of 16. (see PEW Research and Statisa). Of the 10-16 devices, tablets float in the space as not a computer and not a smartphone and can be lumped with TVs and thermostats. (I hopes those stats change to reflect tablets as a personal compute module.) Though it's not hard data as no OEM is supplying this data, one can see most homes have nearly a 1 to 1 ratio of person to computational unit. The trending trajectory will be 2 personal devices per person in the US market in the next 3-5 years. Once again, emphasis on broad spectrum and not catering to demographics or economics.

With this in mind, multi-user accounts was really a means to reduce costs by purchasers, not as a means real functionality unless you are talking about servers. Also, multi-user accounts on platforms is also a ripe attack vector that has been exploited for decades. Look at any OS's security frameworks and it's an unruly mess for such a simple idea of "sharing the soup spoon around the bowl."

Sure, having multiple accounts will help the parents for the grubby hands pawing for the latest Paw Patrol or elementary needing their Doom-slaying fix/hit on another world in Minecraft. But the data just doesn't back the capital investment for such devices warrants the need for multi-account support. Now on shared experiences, like TVs, automobiles, etc. etc.., that makes a lot of sense. But tablets is really a one person device experience during use.

I think iOS 18 will take a bit of pressure off as you can lock down individual apps from those Cheetos powered fingers. It should accomplish the same outcome.
You’re acting like this is the first time anyone has had to solve this problem. You’re aware software engineers get paid to solve these things? Computers in general have been multi-user for literally decades.
 

darngooddesign

macrumors P6
Jul 4, 2007
18,362
10,114
Atlanta, GA
But it was Apple’s choice to fork iOS into iPadOS and give it the same processors that power Macs. What’s the point of doing that if iPad is still mostly just a big iPhone?
Because the A chips did not support desktop features like swap memory; the Apple Silicon transition dev Macs were using A chips which had been customized to support those features. Since Apple wanted to give iPadOS that feature, they used their M chip.
 

kc9hzn

macrumors 68000
Jun 18, 2020
1,824
2,193
For me it’s mostly proper desktop extensions for browsers and a the Music app having feature parity with its desktop version. Actually I’d say that about most productivity apps.
Oddly enough, desktop browser extensions aren’t a thing on Chrome/Android, either (unless you download the Kiwi browser). Couldn’t tell ya why that is (other than maybe blocking ad blockers, thus serving Google’s advertising machine).
 
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kc9hzn

macrumors 68000
Jun 18, 2020
1,824
2,193
How much different do you think it would be? I don’t think it would run macOS. He was opposed to the iPad mini and who knows what he would have thought about a 13” iPad? Perhaps the lineup would be a bit more coherent with less overlap.

Apple likely would have moved Mac to Apple Silicon a few years earlier. Steve approved the purchase of PA Semi in 2008. The 12”
MacBook probably would still exist as it seemed to epitomize Steve Jobs’s vision of the Mac for consumers.

Jobs might not have been as blindsided by generative AI but Apple seems to be responding quickly, and again it isn’t as clear what a more nimble AI strategy would have meant for iPad vs Mac.

Apple Watch was started after his death. I think it was a Jony Ive project that Tim Cook was eager to support since he needed to prove he could introduce a new product not on the roadmap that Steve Jobs left for him in 2011.
The Apple Watch also serves as an ecosystem enricher (more benefits for staying in ecosystem). In many ways, it was a logical extension to the iOS ecosystem (a device to the iPhone what the iPod was to the Mac).
 

kc9hzn

macrumors 68000
Jun 18, 2020
1,824
2,193
Thats quite the experiment for a YouTuber.

Is going all in on an iPad Pro scalable for the 25 million people buying iPad Pros?

Edit: seems Christopher Lawley couldn’t get his work done so he bought another Mac.

It’s more like his work changed, which meant that he couldn’t do all the job on an iPad anymore. Basically the shape of his work changed when he started a podcast, and that shape no longer worked on an iPad. All the other work still has the same shape, though.
 

PaperMag

Suspended
May 13, 2023
220
383
It’s more like his work changed, which meant that he couldn’t do all the job on an iPad anymore. Basically the shape of his work changed when he started a podcast, and that shape no longer worked on an iPad. All the other work still has the same shape, though.
Well he took the shape of his work that was like a triangle and then he couldn't make it fit in the round hole so he changed the shape of the iPad to make it shaped like a Mac because he couldn't shape it up anymore so he shaped the change of the iPad because the work he shaped but it still has the same shape.

A lot of words to say "That iPad Guy" had to buy a Mac.
 
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prospervic

macrumors 65816
Aug 2, 2007
1,154
1,433
NYC
No, the point is their analogy doesn't work and their excuses are running on fumes. On an infinite timeline iPad and Mac will integrate, its inevitable.......
"Inevitable" he says. I suppose you have some inside information? What about Vision Pro? Isn't it going to cause the "inevitable" demise of iPad and Mac?
 

PaperMag

Suspended
May 13, 2023
220
383
"Inevitable" he says. I suppose you have some inside information? What about Vision Pro? Isn't it going to cause the "inevitable" demise of iPad and Mac?
Pattern recognition does not require inside information, it simply requires recognizing patterns. And there are lots of patterns to draw from. One pattern is that generation Z and Alpha grew up with touch. Apple will be bringing touch to the Mac for them. Considering what is separating current iPad Pro from MacBook Pros is a weak OS and touch, what we'll have left then is a weak OS. How long do you think Apple can keep up their weaponized incompetence about iPadOS? Not very long. And on an infinite timeline, iPadOS and macOS have to converge in capability if they are going to remain competitive with Wintel devices, Android devices, and Qualcomm devices (oh yes, they are coming). Apple is making shareholders happy today by keeping them separate but technology moves forward. MacBook Pro is rumored to get touch in 2027 along with the OLED display. Apple is slow but its inevitable.
 

Rogifan

macrumors Penryn
Original poster
Nov 14, 2011
24,733
32,196
Oddly enough, desktop browser extensions aren’t a thing on Chrome/Android, either (unless you download the Kiwi browser). Couldn’t tell ya why that is (other than maybe blocking ad blockers, thus serving Google’s advertising machine).
So dumb.
 
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Yebubbleman

macrumors 603
May 20, 2010
6,024
2,616
Los Angeles, CA
John Gruber brings up the iPad/Mac discussion around the 58 minute mark. Both Craig and Joz said the Mac and iPad are different products. They both said they love their Mac and their iPad. Then Craig compared putting the M4 in the iPad to someone having a truck and a sports car with a V8 engine but wondering why the sports car can’t tow their boat. Then he finished by saying he wants the iPad to be the best iPad it can be.

It seems pretty clear from those comments that iPadOS isn’t getting closer to macOS anytime soon. The question I would ask them is what about customers who don’t want (or can’t afford) to own an iPad and a Mac? A top of the line iPad Pro is as expensive as a Mac laptop. Is Craig really saying that it is impossible for Apple to create a version of iPadOS that could be the best tablet experience but also serve more pro workflows that exist on the Mac? He threw in a dig at Windows 8 but Microsoft taking a desktop OS and shoehorning it into a tablet is nothing like Apple making a touch first OS more capable of doing desktop like workflows. I think I’d have more respect for their comments if they just said yeah we’d like you to own both devices.

Apple's stance is very clearly that the iPad is only as capable as the apps you run on it. The features that make an iPad Pro more versatile than an iPad Air speak directly to this. For the record, I don't agree with this line of thinking. I have a 12.9-inch 3rd Generation iPad Pro that I was strongly considering replacing with a "13-inch" iPad Air and then I realized that all I'm doing is allowing my M1 13-inch MacBook Pro to gather dust at times when all I'm doing is playing Hearthstone, browsing Facebook, chatting on both the stock Messages app and Facebook Messenger, maybe taking notes with the Smart Keyboard Folio and occasionally watching streaming media.

If I was an artist, that'd be one thing. You can't use ProCreate on a Mac. You CAN use Final Cut Pro on a Mac. You can use Logic Pro on a Mac. I'm not entirely sure why I'm paying a subscription to Apple to use those things on an M-series SoC powered iPad Air or iPad Pro when I probably have greater control and flexibility to do so on a Mac. It's fun using Keynote on an iPad. I don't know that I need it (nor that I need a high-end iPad for it).

The ladyfriend is due to replace her computing setup. I'm helping her do this. A 10th Generation iPad is all the computer she'll ever need 90% of the time. That other 10%? Simple things like file and folder manipulation. Things that the iPad completely fails at because it's really a smartphone in tablet's clothing. It's ludicrous that this thing comes so close to being able to replace a computer for extremely basic tasks and then falls so short so miserably.

It doesn't need to run macOS. iPadOS just needs to be better. Though, as I've said a ton of times before elsewhere; I am fine with how iPadOS is on an iPad mini because that is small enough that basic computer use cases are totally something I can live without on something too small for me to comfortably do that kind of stuff on. Get any bigger and it gets more awkward.

That’s Apple’s answer. I think it’s a lame one.

AGREED!

Apple made the process of running iPad apps on MacOS about as simple as they could, but developers by and large are not interested in that.

It's pretty kludgy. And it's kludgy for the exact same reasons why it's kludgy to run Android apps on a Chromebook 50% of the time; there's no touch screen and these are multi-touch apps. It was never a great system to begin with.

To be the best tablet OS.

Except, it's not. It's the best smartphone OS blown up to an 8.3-13-inch screen size and with the name "iPad" all over it.

I think if it’s about affordability then the Apple range isn’t for people in that mindset.

I have a friend whose long term windows user and gets new machine every 5 years and never spends more than £600 even through he could easily afford a Mac. He just doesn’t value it at anymore than a windows pc.

I think most of us iPad complainers don’t really want or need it to be a Mac but they just need to iron out more of the kinks..

This video perfectly sums up my frustration with it


That video REALLY DOES sum it up perfectly. We're not asking for macOS on iPad. We're asking for using this thing for basic non-App-specific tasks to not suck as badly as it currently does. The notion that Apple knows what's best here is ABSURD.

This is why they would never allow multiple accounts. That and they don’t want to complicate a simple thing.
Except they totally DO allow multiple user accounts. https://support.apple.com/guide/deployment/shared-ipad-overview-dep9a34c2ba2/web

They just don't allow it outside of the context of MDM and Apple School/Business Manager. There's no reason why it couldn't be offered independently of that. It is not the kind of thing you do on a 32GB or 64GB iPad, but there's no reason why 128GB or higher couldn't do this comfortably.
 

Digitalguy

macrumors 601
Apr 15, 2019
4,641
4,469
Oddly enough, desktop browser extensions aren’t a thing on Chrome/Android, either (unless you download the Kiwi browser). Couldn’t tell ya why that is (other than maybe blocking ad blockers, thus serving Google’s advertising machine).
You answered your own question. Google does not want you to block ads on mobile OSs and they'd rather have you on their apps, like youtube, than on a browser where you can block their advertising machine (and that's why I do the exact opposite...).
 

richpjr

macrumors 68040
May 9, 2006
3,763
2,594
That video REALLY DOES sum it up perfectly. We're not asking for macOS on iPad. We're asking for using this thing for basic non-App-specific tasks to not suck as badly as it currently does. The notion that Apple knows what's best here is ABSURD.
It really does and at this point it would be hard for me to argue with his conclusion that it isn't on purpose, sadly.
 

kc9hzn

macrumors 68000
Jun 18, 2020
1,824
2,193
You answered your own question. Google does not want you to block ads on mobile OSs and they'd rather have you on their apps, like youtube, than on a browser where you can block their advertising machine (and that's why I do the exact opposite...).
Well, obviously, browser extensions can do much more than just block ads and trackers, even if that’s 90% of what people do with them. But yeah, I included the bit about ads because I suspect that’s the real reason Google Chrome doesn’t support extensions on Android, but I don’t know what the for-public-and-FTC-consumption rationale is.
 

Yebubbleman

macrumors 603
May 20, 2010
6,024
2,616
Los Angeles, CA
The best response to this shamefully disrespectful comment is to paraphrase a very wise quote: [iPadOS] is wasted on the […].

Your investment in the Apple ecosystem to the point of being offended by criticism directed at one of its many facets is...something else. Peace be with you, friend.

It really does and at this point it would be hard for me to argue with his conclusion that it isn't on purpose, sadly.
The iPad's limitations aren't the worst thing in the world on SOME models. In my sincere opinion, it's prohibitively confusing on the others.
 

Rogifan

macrumors Penryn
Original poster
Nov 14, 2011
24,733
32,196
It really does and at this point it would be hard for me to argue with his conclusion that it isn't on purpose, sadly.
I’ve said this before but the biggest loss with Steve Jobs is there isn’t anyone at Apple who can explain the ‘why’ anymore. They’re good at the ‘what’ and ‘how’ but not the ‘why’. This is especially evident with iPad Pro and Vision Pro. John Gruber thinks iPad Pro exists just to be a nicer version of iPad but no one at Apple has ever said this. And of course there is no point in forking iOS and creating things like stage manager or bringing pro apps like Logic and Final Cut if iPad Pro exists just to be a luxury/expensive iPad. Right now iPad Pro is in this weird spot. I guess we have to hope these new ARM PCs pose some serious competition to Apple and force them to make different decisions.
 
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heretiq

Contributor
Jan 31, 2014
1,021
1,654
Denver, CO
Your investment in the Apple ecosystem to the point of being offended by criticism directed at one of its many facets is...something else. Peace be with you, friend.


The iPad's limitations aren't the worst thing in the world on SOME models. In my sincere opinion, it's prohibitively confusing on the others.
I respect your sincerity and decency. My point is that dismissing the iPad as simply a big iPhone disregards the fundamental idea of the iPad as a device that is optimized along the entire stack for lean-back / contemplative work and the considerable attention that has gone into crafting the functionality and UX to align with that design intent. This orientation, focus, optimization and experience is unique to the iPad. A substantial component of my daily work falls into the contemplative (formulating and communicating ideas, system and visual designs, strategies, plans, processes, analytic models, proofs of concept, etc.) vs production arena. As a result. I experience and deeply appreciate the benefits of this unique iPad capability every single day — so I’m perhaps over-sensitive to seeing it unappreciated.

I admit that references to the iPad as “just a big iPhone” is a trigger for me — not because I’m offended; but because I do believe it diminishes the iPad and is disrespectful of the considerable life energy that Apple has poured into crafting this absolutely unique computing appliance. I understand that this may be a subtle property that may be easily missed by well-meaning individuals, so I apologize if my comment offended you in any way and hope you understand what motivated it. 🙏🏽
 
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