iPad Pro Craig and Joz discussing iPad on The Talk Show

[london_apple]

Remember, though, the theme throughout that interview was "patience." Lol—is that an acceptable answer? Maybe not, but I do feel like it's a reality. It seems to me that in their minds, the iPad isn't going anywhere any time soon and that it still has so much room to grow on top of what it already is.

AND they don't see the future of Mac as iPad. I think that bit was profound.

 

[heretiq]

Regarding Microsoft, I get why bringing VBA to other platforms might be difficult (or not even possible) but pivot tables? I don’t know anyone who uses Excel who hasn’t used pivot tables. To me that is core functionality of Excel that should exist on every platform.

Yes, and it’s Microsoft’s choice not to bring it to the iPad — not an Apple or iPadOS restriction. It’s called product differentiation and Microsoft, Apple and every serious product company practices it in accordance with their individual product and strategic visions. This is why we have Surface PCs, MacBooks, iPads and different versions of apps for each device. As consumers we can opine on what we would like, but ultimately we get to choose from what is offered. Choose based on what a product does and be mostly happy, choose based on what we wish and be mostly unhappy. Simple.

 

[DBBlanchette]

I keep around an old Windows laptop for 2 things: uploading music to iTunes (now Apple Music) and using a Firefox extension to download video from YouTube. If Apple made the iOS/iPadOS Music app and browser extensions have feature parity with their desktop versions I could ditch this old laptop. But it’s like they’re intentionally holding back iPad OS just enough that it can’t quite replace a desktop/laptop. I refuse to believe there is no way to add more pro capabilities without making it complex for grandma. I mean they added stage manager and most iPad users probably don’t know anything about it and never use it. I also refuse to believe it’s a resource issue. They spent a lot of time demoing a calculator app and continue to make pencil improvements so it’s not like there are zero resources being dedicated to iPad.

Stage Manager requires an M1 processor. I have it on my iPad Air 5th gen and use it all the time, a great time saver. But it’s not the same as multitasking, and it won’t allow having two open windows, which would’ve been ideal. Not sure if Apple is aiming for that, which could be the next step if they ever plan to make iPadOS more Mac-like.

 

[Isengardtom]

Yes, and it’s Microsoft’s choice not to bring it to the iPad — not an Apple or iPadOS restriction. It’s called product differentiation and Microsoft, Apple and every serious product company practices it in accordance with their individual product and strategic visions. This is why we have Surface PCs, MacBooks, iPads and different versions of apps for each device. As consumers we can opine on what we would like, but ultimately we get to choose from what is offered. Choose based on what a product does and be mostly happy, choose based on what we wish and be mostly unhappy. Simple.

Actually you can create Pivot Tables now on the Excel / Office 365 apps on the iPad - they added it 2 months ago

I was talking more about PowerPivot - which is not on the iPad but also not on the mac - for that you need a windows machine

 

[heretiq]

Was Apple’s judgment correct when they released the trash can Mac Pro? The one port MacBook? The touchbar MacBook Pro? Butterfly keyboard?

The TouchBar MacBook Pro is my favorite MacBook Pro apart from my current M1 Max MacBook Pro. I still lament Apple‘s decision to bend to a small, but vocal contingent that just didn’t get it and caused those of us who appreciated this excellent feature to lose out on it. The same thing is happening in this iPadOS macOS conversation where individuals who’ve never built a product (much less an operating system or device ecosystem) insist that they know better than the world’s best product creators and are so blind to their hubris and sense of entitlement that they feel no shame or ridicule in claiming to know better or insisting that Apple should subjugate its product vision and adopt theirs. 🙄

 

[Retskrad]

Apple executives are repeatedly saying that iPad in its current state is all according to their plan and they expect you to buy both the Mac and iPad to form a “complete” experience. It’s either buy another tablet or use iPad for it actually is and not what you wanted it to be. I don’t understand the point of waking up everyday and being mad about it.

 

[heretiq]

Actually you can create Pivot Tables now on the Excel / Office 365 apps on the iPad - they added it 2 months ago

I was talking more about PowerPivot - which is not on the iPad but also not on the mac - for that you need a windows machine

That’s great to know — thank you. Kudos to MS for adding Pivot Tables to Excel on iPad. 🙏🏽

 

[Isengardtom]

That’s great to know — thank you. Kudos to MS for adding Pivot Tables to Excel on iPad. 🙏🏽

Indeed - they’re pretty good at adding features occasionally. Also Content table to a word document now for example

Excel

 

[richpjr]

Apple executives are repeatedly saying that iPad in its current state is all according to their plan and they expect you to buy both the Mac and iPad to form a “complete” experience. It’s either buy another tablet or use iPad for it actually is and not what you wanted it to be. I don’t understand the point of waking up everyday and being mad about it.

People buy many more iPads than Macs and have for years so this argument runs hollow...

 

[prospervic]

Lawley bought a Mac mini and announced it on his podcast 10 days ago.

I’ll look for that video, but it doesn’t negate my point. I already said that for the majority of iPad owners it’s a compliment to their Mac or PC, and use iPad for mobile productivity and entertainment. Calling iPad a “glorified iPhone” when people are editing videos and running businesses on it is more than a little bit ignorant.

 

[prospervic]

ANSWER THIS QUESTION: Why is it that every device in the world, including Apple TV 4K, has multiple account login, but iPad Pro with the most advanced chip architecture in Apple's lineup can't have multiple accounts?

Does any iOS device (outside of Apple TV) have multiple account login? It’s not about “weaponizing incompetence,“ it’s just simple greed — Apple wants to sell more iPads.

 

[goobot]

You're correct that people are hyperbolic in calling it a glorified iPhone. As you made the case, the iPad Pro is great for writing, research, emailing, art, photo and video editing...

yet Apple intentionally handicaps iPadOS so that the "last mile" of getting things done is just clunky and impeding enough, and that app developers are artificially limited in background processing and other "low hanging fruit" as Federico Viticci put it. It appears Apple is "weaponizing incompetence" to keep iPad Pro as a supplementary device.

ANSWER THIS QUESTION: Why is it that every device in the world, including Apple TV 4K, has multiple account login, but iPad Pro with the most advanced chip architecture in Apple's lineup can't have multiple accounts?

Is Apple "weaponizing incompetence" in the software domain, or does the iPad Pro have a hardware limitation that prevents multiple account login?

The logins on Apple TV are a joke, I don’t even consider them that

 

[Infinitewisdom]

Their analogy is nonsensical to the actual problem: iPadOS becomes unintuitive as soon as you want to do more than the actual basics. We're not asking for more towing power, we're asking for it to just make sense.

That’s really just beside the point though. They clearly don’t want to integrate the two, if we read between the lines.

 

[masotime]

ANSWER THIS QUESTION: Why is it that every device in the world, including Apple TV 4K, has multiple account login, but iPad Pro with the most advanced chip architecture in Apple's lineup can't have multiple accounts?

I definitely agree with this one. Multi-account on an iPad is long overdue - it would make it a much better "family" option and allow sharing of iPad with guests more easily. Even something as basic as the Vision Pro's Guest Mode would be a great option here with preset apps / data available for guests.

 

[PaperMag]

That’s really just beside the point though. They clearly don’t want to integrate the two, if we read between the lines.

No, the point is their analogy doesn't work and their excuses are running on fumes. On an infinite timeline iPad and Mac will integrate, its inevitable, and we've now entered the point on the timeline where Craig Federighi is stalling and resorting to telling us the Emperor has on new clothes.

• They once could get away with excuses of form-factor, that its a tablet that doesn't have a trackpad and keyboard like a laptop—but now its sold along the Magic Keyboard that has built in trackpad and mouse support.
• They once could get away with excuses when they said iPad doesn't have the same chip as a Mac laptop, only a beefed up iPhone chip, so it can't do the same multitasking and process sustain as a laptop can, but now they have the same chip as a Mac laptop.
• Now their excuse is the iPad Pro isn't a tow truck which is a bad faith interpretation of what customers are asking for in an iPad Pro.

That they want iPad Pro to be encumbered by design, is not new, but this bad faith pathetic level of an excuse is new. That's the point.

 

[Kahnforever]

John Gruber brings up the iPad/Mac discussion around the 58 minute mark. Both Craig and Joz said the Mac and iPad are different products. They both said they love their Mac and their iPad. Then Craig compared putting the M4 in the iPad to someone having a truck and a sports car with a V8 engine but wondering why the sports car can’t tow their boat. Then he finished by saying he wants the iPad to be the best iPad it can be.

It seems pretty clear from those comments that iPadOS isn’t getting closer to macOS anytime soon. The question I would ask them is what about customers who don’t want (or can’t afford) to own an iPad and a Mac? A top of the line iPad Pro is as expensive as a Mac laptop. Is Craig really saying that it is impossible for Apple to create a version of iPadOS that could be the best tablet experience but also serve more pro workflows that exist on the Mac? He threw in a dig at Windows 8 but Microsoft taking a desktop OS and shoehorning it into a tablet is nothing like Apple making a touch first OS more capable of doing desktop like workflows. I think I’d have more respect for their comments if they just said yeah we’d like you to own both devices.

No, the point is their analogy doesn't work and their excuses are running on fumes. On an infinite timeline iPad and Mac will integrate, its inevitable, and we've now entered the point on the timeline where Craig Federighi is stalling and resorting to telling us the Emperor has on new clothes.

• They once could get away with excuses of form-factor, that its a tablet that doesn't have a trackpad and keyboard like a laptop—but now its sold along the Magic Keyboard that has built in trackpad and mouse support.
• They once could get away with excuses when they said iPad doesn't have the same chip as a Mac laptop, only a beefed up iPhone chip, so it can't do the same multitasking and process sustain as a laptop can, but now they have the same chip as a Mac laptop.
• Now their excuse is the iPad Pro isn't a tow truck which is a bad faith interpretation of what customers are asking for in an iPad Pro.

That they want iPad Pro to be encumbered by design, is not new, but this bad faith pathetic level of an excuse is new. That's the point.

Imagine you earn a living working at Apple as VP of software and hardware. Imagine that you took your position to the Board. You want a Mac iPad hybrid, software and all. You will be fired if it fails on the market. What decision do you make? Greenlight to produce a lawnmower with wings?

 

[PaperMag]

Does any iOS device (outside of Apple TV) have multiple account login? It’s not about “weaponizing incompetence,“ it’s just simple greed — Apple wants to sell more iPads.

I said every device in the world including Apple TV has multiple account login to prove it is a standard. Don't get lost. You know what I mean. Apple is pretending they oh-so-cute don't know how to make it work for iPad Pro, just like its oh-so-cute "we don't know how to put a calculator on an iPad for 14 years."

It's called weaponized incompetence. So don't say its not about that. It is that.

When Apple don't want the press to say, "Apple is greedy" they tell the press, "We haven't figured out how to make that work yet."

Thats called weaponized incompetence. I'm calling out the technique by name.

 

[PaperMag]

Imagine you earn a living working at Apple as VP of software and hardware. Imagine that you took your position to the Board. You want a Mac iPad hybrid, software and all. You will be fired if it fails on the market. What decision do you make? Greenlight to produce a lawnmower with wings?

Thats silly. First of all, a Mac iPad hybrid "software and all" is a misrepresentation of what iPad Pro owners want. On an infinite timeline, iPad Pro inevitably surpasses the Mac. You can write into it like a notebook and the AI will mimic your handwriting, correct your typos, and calculate whatever diagram you draw—so in that sense its way past Mac. It even comes with optional cellular service, something Macs can't do.

What people are annoyed by is the artificial restrictions of iPadOS's file management system and restrictive background processing. Apple makes it frustrating to use as part of a larger strategy to keep it a restrictive appliance, where they get 30% of every app you buy, a control they don't have on the Mac, and are fighting the EU and the DOJ on as we speak.

A "lawnmower with wings" is just grossly misunderstanding what is happening.

 

[iPadified]

Do you think a MacBook Air is a specialist computer? What defines what a specialist computer is? Whether the operating system is or touch or not?

It has to do with the tasks being done and how they are done. Touch and the HW/performance has nothing to do with it and that is why specialists get confused over the iPP. They look at the iPad specs and say "Why can I not get MacOS capabilities???". Because it is not a specialist* device. For example, take something basic like formatting a hard drive. Is that a specialist task? For most people at MR - no. For most people on the planet - yes. Most people have no clue why formatting a drive is needed. Prior to cloud storage, nonspecialist needed help with this and now they don't. I think that is great.

We can also see MacOS as a nonspecialist OS as the GUI is more intuitive and make it easier to do complex tasks than using a command prompt. The need for nonspecialist computers has evolved and the "PC/Mac" paradigm replaced by smart phones and tables because they are computers for the nonspecialist.

The feature what is needed in a specialist device and not on a nonspecialist device is however not a trivial one and a good topic to discuss.

I can appreciate the desire to put MacOS like capabilities on iPad because the iPad HW ecosystem is very good. The trick is to do this without messing with the nonspecialist experience.

*specialist is defines as doing complex computer task so a medical doctor is specialist that does not need to be a computer specialist.

 

[darngooddesign]

I said every device in the world including Apple TV has multiple account login to prove it is a standard. Don't get lost. You know what I mean. Apple is pretending they oh-so-cute don't know how to make it work for iPad Pro, just like its oh-so-cute "we don't know how to put a calculator on an iPad for 14 years."

It's called weaponized incompetence. So don't say its not about that. It is that.

When Apple don't want the press to say, "Apple is greedy" they tell the press, "We haven't figured out how to make that work yet."

Thats called weaponized incompetence. I'm calling out the technique by name.

That's greed, not weaponized incompetence. Which is silly since they would be able to sell more of the very profitable storage upgrades to support multiple accounts.

 

[Rogifan]

Actually you can create Pivot Tables now on the Excel / Office 365 apps on the iPad - they added it 2 months ago

I was talking more about PowerPivot - which is not on the iPad but also not on the mac - for that you need a windows machine

Oh really? Good to know. I will have to check that out.

 

[Rogifan]

Thats silly. First of all, a Mac iPad hybrid "software and all" is a misrepresentation of what iPad Pro owners want. On an infinite timeline, iPad Pro inevitably surpasses the Mac. You can write into it like a notebook and the AI will mimic your handwriting, correct your typos, and calculate whatever diagram you draw—so in that sense its way past Mac. It even comes with optional cellular service, something Macs can't do.

What people are annoyed by is the artificial restrictions of iPadOS's file management system and restrictive background processing. Apple makes it frustrating to use as part of a larger strategy to keep it a restrictive appliance, where they get 30% of every app you buy, a control they don't have on the Mac, and are fighting the EU and the DOJ on as we speak.

A "lawnmower with wings" is just grossly misunderstanding what is happening.

It also makes you think why are there are no cellular Mac laptops? Is that another arbitrary decision because if Mac laptops had cellular then some users wouldn’t need an iPad? Their decisions sure seem to point to making each device not quite what people need so they end up buying both.

 

[prospervic]

I said every device in the world including Apple TV has multiple account login to prove it is a standard. Don't get lost. You know what I mean. Apple is pretending they oh-so-cute don't know how to make it work for iPad Pro, just like its oh-so-cute "we don't know how to put a calculator on an iPad for 14 years."

It's called weaponized incompetence. So don't say its not about that. It is that.

When Apple don't want the press to say, "Apple is greedy" they tell the press, "We haven't figured out how to make that work yet."

Thats called weaponized incompetence. I'm calling out the technique by name.

Make it complicated if you wish. Occam’s Razor dictates the simplest solution is the best. When it comes to corporate or political motivations, always follow the money.

 

[darngooddesign]

It also makes you think why are there are no cellular Mac laptops? Is that another arbitrary decision because if Mac laptops had cellular then some users wouldn’t need an iPad? Their decisions sure seem to point to making each device not quite what people need so they end up buying both.

I doubt anyone is buying an iPad and paying for the cellular upgrade instead of just hot-spotting from their phone. It's not like battery life would be an issue since you could just plug your phone into your Mac, and a MacBook charging your phone still has better battery life than a cellular iPad. I do agree that it seems like an arbitrary decision, but I think at some point Apple will add it because its the kind of paid upgrade Apple loves to offer.

 

[darngooddesign]

Stage Manager requires an M1 processor. I have it on my iPad Air 5th gen and use it all the time, a great time saver. But it’s not the same as multitasking, and it won’t allow having two open windows, which would’ve been ideal. Not sure if Apple is aiming for that, which could be the next step if they ever plan to make iPadOS more Mac-like.

There are three parts to stage manager, all with different hardware requirements; resizable windows, dual monitor support, and desktop-style swap memory. Apple initially bundled the windows and dual monitor support together with an M1 requirement, but they later separated them so the A12s could have the resizable windows. The dual monitor support kept its M1 requirement, and the swap memory also had 128GB+ requirement.