El Capitan: Does this mark the death of OS X as a serious OS?

[fisherking]

I’m done discussing this. Again: a hidden option is an option you don’t see or know about. It might as well not exist unless you specifically look or ask for it or just encounter it by chance. The gist of it is that it is bad usability-wise and I don’t – and I stress this – blame Apple for doing it if they don’t know what else to do. But it’s bad usability nonetheless.

"It might as well not exist unless you specifically look or ask for it or just encounter it by chance."

if you don't need it, all is well. if you do need it, easy to find answers online. apple could choose to not hide certain options...but they do. it's a choice they've made...but these options are all findable if needed. reasonable to assume that hidden options (like accessing the user library) are hidden for a reason: most consumers don't need the extra or 'advanced' functionality. and again, it is the way it is. will now leave the discussion as well...

 

[leman]

I’m done discussing this. Again: a hidden option is an option you don’t see or know about. It might as well not exist unless you specifically look or ask for it or just encounter it by chance. The gist of it is that it is bad usability-wise and I don’t – and I stress this – blame Apple for doing it if they don’t know what else to do. But it’s bad usability nonetheless.

To be fair, Apple usually documents these things in its knowledge base. For example: https://support.apple.com/kb/PH18928?locale=en_US&viewlocale=en_US

Also, the option key behaviour is documented here: https://support.apple.com/kb/PH18812?viewlocale=en_US&locale=en_US

El Capitan is still beta, so the articles haven't been updated.

 

[dyn]

A hidden option doesn't necessarily mean that it is unknown, that would be an unknown option A hidden option simply is an option that isn't in plain sight. You may have to use the commandline, do a little dance, hit some buttons in a specific order or just click on the "advanced" button. The definition of hidden is all in the eye of the beholder. In both cases (hidden and unknown) you beed to stumble upon the option and exactly that is what makes it user unfriendly. User friendliness means that it requires very little effort: it does what you think it might do, it simply works and you don't have to go through various hoops.

 

[RobFog]

I’m done discussing this. Again: a hidden option is an option you don’t see or know about. It might as well not exist unless you specifically look or ask for it or just encounter it by chance. The gist of it is that it is bad usability-wise and I don’t – and I stress this – blame Apple for doing it if they don’t know what else to do. But it’s bad usability nonetheless.

Adding to what others have said in reply:
These decisions are all about trade-offs.

You could argue that overloading the UI with options a very small percentage of users is interested is even worse "usability-wise". Apple would probably reason that those looking for the kind of settings hidden without the modifier key would be technically inclined enough to do the necessary "research" – and as mentioned by others here that just means checking documentation or searching the internet.

All things considered the smarter way is requiring a little extra effort by expert users compared to cluttering preferences for regular users.

 

[KALLT]

Adding to what others have said in reply:
These decisions are all about trade-offs.

You could argue that overloading the UI with options a very small percentage of users is interested is even worse "usability-wise". Apple would probably reason that those looking for the kind of settings hidden without the modifier key would be technically inclined enough to do the necessary "research" – and as mentioned by others here that just means checking documentation or searching the internet.

All things considered the smarter way is requiring a little extra effort by expert users compared to cluttering preferences for regular users.

Well eventually I hope to see operating systems becoming a lot ‘smarter’ by adapting to the user and the context. We haven’t reached that stage yet, but I assume that this is where it will go. For the time being the choice is either between not having advanced options, crowded menus (Windows) or hidden options. They are all not good and it’s always a tradeoff, but it’s one we have to live with for now.

 

[fisherking]

Well eventually I hope to see operating systems becoming a lot ‘smarter’ by adapting to the user and the context. We haven’t reached that stage yet, but I assume that this is where it will go. For the time being the choice is either between not having advanced options, crowded menus (Windows) or hidden options. They are all not good and it’s always a tradeoff, but it’s one we have to live with for now.

you're back so i guess i can come back too..

what's wrong with hidden options? they're there for the power users, the occasionally-need-this users...in fact, anyone who needs a function such as accessing expert options in display calibration; simple enough to find out about (the web), and there when needed. seems an ideal contrast to overloading menus, or, for example, making the user library easily accessible to consumers who should never go there... anyway, there are more possibilities in the OS then meet the eye...and that's a good thing.

 

[KALLT]

what's wrong with hidden options?

I am not going to repeat myself again. Just one more argument: hidden options also require you to remember that they are there, even when you found them. It fills your working memory even more and makes switching between systems, especially on a regular basis, tiresome. It is not an ideal design and that’s the line I’m going to leave this discussion with.

 

[fisherking]

I am not going to repeat myself again. Just one more argument: hidden options also require you to remember that they are there, even when you found them. It fills your working memory even more and makes switching between systems, especially on a regular basis, tiresome. It is not an ideal design and that’s the line I’m going to leave this discussion with.

how many times do you need to, for example, configure your monitor? and how hard is it, for another example, to remember to hold the option key when accessing the user library from the Go menu?

i think you're overcomplicating things. how many option-click settings will you need? and if it truly gets unwieldy...there's always Notes. or Word. or pen/paper.

life's not that hard, and hidden options are not that hard to find.

 

[timshundo]

THIS THREAD

You just hold down the option key when you click calibrate. You hold down the option key to see the Library folder shortcut under the Go menu in Finder. Always the option key.

How will people know that? They GOOGLE, just like they have for decades. Why is it not a problem? Because only 1% of mac users would ever actually need to see the ~/Library folder or calibrate their display... or even need a right click! Apple knows this. There's no actual problem here. Just FUD regarding change.

 

[redheeler]

and how hard is it, for another example, to remember to hold the option key when accessing the user library from the Go menu?

I had no idea that was possible

I need to start randomly holding down the Option key when opening menus more often

 

[xmichaelp]

Over the years we've seen numerous features, both serious and trivial, removed from OS X in what seems an effort to "dumb down" the operating system. For example, the spinning time machine icon used to spin when backing up at least giving a warning to a user that a backup is occurring so maybe now is not the time to shut down your system. The removal of expose and the half hearted attempts to bring it back are, to say the least inferior.

Yesterday I discovered an actual show stopper: You can no longer adjust the display properly. You used to be able to adjust color levels, contrast, etc. etc. but now, in System Preferences->Displays, you get basically an "idiot box" approach to display adjustment where you can adjust the contrast of your screen and set the native white point, and that's it.

Why is this a show stopper? Because not all displays are alike and how they're set up by each user may vary widely. For online image work we used to have about 20 different display profiles to emulate various displays and settings so we could verify that our work is presented in a decent fashion to a user. The ability to do this is now gone. I suspect that any photographer using OS X will find this problem not kind of serious, but an actual show stopper, as in "I can't use this for professional work any longer."

As an FYI I was able to overcome this by copying profiles generated in Mavericks onto an El Capitan unit and it looks like it works, but there's no way to adjust anything. In other words, if you do this sort of work, all you need to do is log into a previous release of OS X, generated color profiles, then copy them to an El Capitan partition, then reboot and use El Capitan. This of course begs the question, "Why use El Capitan at all?"

The dumbing down of OS X has finally gone too far. I actually can't use this for real work. Combine that with the inability to adjust that bad joke known as translucency to prevent the obvious visual problems it causes some users and I'd have to say the degradation of the OS continues.

Nothing you listed is actually dumbing down the OS, stop with the hyperbole. One could make the case that rootless is "dumbing down" but even then you can disable it.

 

[xmichaelp]

Jony "Stick Figure" Ive has simply decided to redesign the OS to cater to those who count:

Kim Kardashian
Kanye West
Paris Hilton
Sarah Palin
…the list goes on!

If you've got real work to do, go elsewhere!!

Is this trolling? It should be. What an utterly useless, inane comment. What is this even supposed to mean? Are you one of the few people still upset over the new interface? Jeez, get over it.

There is absolutely nothing in Yosemite preventing someone from doing "real work".

So, apple stopped an animation for the time machine icon spinning (so it is now less distracting and consumes less power and potentially a little less CPU because there's no animation when backing up), and you're running a pre-release OS that isn't finished, OS X is dead as a professional OS?

Right....


Methinks you aren't a professional at all, if those even rate in your list of quibbles about whether or not an OS is professional, and the fact that you're running a beta or developer preview on your production machine and making judgements on the state of OS X with it.

Thank you, the notion that an icon animation would send anyone over the edge is ridiculous.

 

[KoolAid-Drink]

Sadly, I feel kind of the same. So far, I'm not exactly fond of El Cap. I'm not liking the new S.F. font, and the OS seems a bit dumbed down for some reason. I agree that removing expert mode from the Calibration assistant was silly, essentially rendering it pointless.

I noticed that every other release of OS X that's odd-numbered has been a blah/not-too-good release; i.e., 10.5, 10.7, 10.9 and now 10.11. I tend to stick with, and prefer, even-numbered releases. Yosemite was one of my favorites, and I actually prefer the Helvetica Neue font on my non-retina MBP, so I dread the S.F. font changeover. I can't put my finger on it, but I'm not liking the vibe of El Cap so far.

 

[pedro_martins]

Sadly, I feel kind of the same. So far, I'm not exactly fond of El Cap. I'm not liking the new S.F. font, and the OS seems a bit dumbed down for some reason. I agree that removing expert mode from the Calibration assistant was silly, essentially rendering it pointless.

I noticed that every other release of OS X that's odd-numbered has been a blah/not-too-good release; i.e., 10.5, 10.7, 10.9 and now 10.11. I tend to stick with, and prefer, even-numbered releases. Yosemite was one of my favorites, and I actually prefer the Helvetica Neue font on my non-retina MBP, so I dread the S.F. font changeover. I can't put my finger on it, but I'm not liking the vibe of El Cap so far.

That and your username say everything that needs to be said. So OS X isn't a serious OS because you don't like the font and it feels "dumbed down for some reason".

Ok, sell your computer and buy a Windows machine, then.

 

[h9826790]

Taking about the Time Machine icon......again?

You can shut down your Mac when back up is in progress. The OS is IMPROVED from time to time. Few years ago, if you shut down half way between a backup, the TM may need to start the whole backup from the beginning again. However, it's improved, if you do that now, TM will resume and continue the backup in the next boot. So, IMO, there is no need to make an animated icon anymore to attract your attention and confuse you that something is working, and you should not shut down the machine. Which is the correct direction to avoid confusion for most user. TM is designed to run fully automatic in the BACKGROUND. Once the initial setup is completed, no user input or attention is required. It backup every hour anyway. Unless you just create some important files which has no other copy and the backup is in progress. Otherwise, just shut it down. It won't harm anything.

Besides, it also help to save some battery for laptop users by removing that unnecessary animation.

Last but not least, the icon looks different when back up is in operation. If you really want to know, you can know the TM status by just looking at the icon. There is no difference in theory, you still have to look at the icon to know the TM status. Just no more animation to attract your attention, that's it. It means the OS is dying???

If Apple do nothing to improve the TM, keep the animated icon, allow the TM unable to resume it's last progress. Then the OS is dying.

 

[KALLT]

Just to go into your concrete examples:

how many times do you need to, for example, configure your monitor?

So why bother hiding some of its functions in a button? Clearly Apple must have thought that there is a use case where more users only need some functions and advanced users need some others. The display calibration utility now has three modes: a default simple mode, a hidden advanced mode, a hidden advanced ‘expert’ mode. When you need to change something specific, how are you going to figure this out? It is poorly thought out; it’s bizarre almost and it doesn’t happen elsewhere (at least to my knowledge and I wouldn’t know better, since the option would probably be hidden anyway ). Maybe the right way should have been to rewrite the display calibration utility and make it more logical and user-friendly, rather than chopping it up into pieces.

and how hard is it, for another example, to remember to hold the option key when accessing the user library from the Go menu?

It is not hard, but it is wasteful in terms of your brain’s working memory and inefficient. Also, let’s assume that expert users will likely have permanently unhidden the library folder to begin with (which actually makes it weird to hide it in the menu then, but – moving on). The menu bar option is then probably meant for one-off use and it’s there where hiding this option becomes problematic. You are asking from users to remember this when they ever need to access the library folder. In my view, computers should make things straightforward for us and not burden us unnecessarily. That is why I like OS X and iOS. I accept that Apple doesn’t like to show the library folder, which is fine. But you can’t always get around it and in that scenario you need to remember that this option is there or you need to ask for it. Luckily, in this case you can just unhide the folder from the view options in your home folder.

life's not that hard, and hidden options are not that hard to find.

It’s not hard. It works on some level, but it’s not an ideal solution.

 

[fisherking]

Just to go into your concrete examples:


So why bother hiding some of its functions in a button? Clearly Apple must have thought that there is a use case where more users only need some functions and advanced users need some others. The display calibration utility now has three modes: a default simple mode, a hidden advanced mode, a hidden advanced ‘expert’ mode. When you need to change something specific, how are you going to figure this out? It is poorly thought out; it’s bizarre almost and it doesn’t happen elsewhere (at least to my knowledge and I wouldn’t know better, since the option would probably be hidden anyway ). Maybe the right way should have been to rewrite the display calibration utility and make it more logical and user-friendly, rather than chopping it up into pieces.


It is not hard, but it is wasteful in terms of your brain’s working memory and inefficient. Also, let’s assume that expert users will likely have permanently unhidden the library folder to begin with (which actually makes it weird to hide it in the menu then, but – moving on). The menu bar option is then probably meant for one-off use and it’s there where hiding this option becomes problematic. You are asking from users to remember this when they ever need to access the library folder. In my view, computers should make things straightforward for us and not burden us unnecessarily. That is why I like OS X and iOS. I accept that Apple doesn’t like to show the library folder, which is fine. But you can’t always get around it and in that scenario you need to remember that this option is there or you need to ask for it. Luckily, in this case you can just unhide the folder from the view options in your home folder.



It’s not hard. It works on some level, but it’s not an ideal solution.

who are trying to convince at this point? this is ridiculous: "It is not hard, but it is wasteful in terms of your brain’s working memory and inefficient."

if your brain struggles with remembering to hit 'option' before clicking...well, that's just sad. it isn't like you're required to enter something bizarre: ie, command-shift-option-EXPERT-1-7-#-control-2016. that might strain one's brain a bit.

anyway, i'll say this again: google. forums. genius bar. etc. lots of places to find answers. and if you're going to 'expert' calibrate your monitor regularly, or visit the user library every day...you'll adapt, and your brain will survive.

 

[KoolAid-Drink]

That and your username say everything that needs to be said. So OS X isn't a serious OS because you don't like the font and it feels "dumbed down for some reason".

Ok, sell your computer and buy a Windows machine, then.

First, never judge someone solely by their username. I chose my username as a play on "koolaid Apple drinkers" - satire and irony. That's all. I am NOT an Apple koolaid drinker/fanboy. I am also not a troll trying to speak against Apple.

And, sadly, the font on my non-retina MBP is a bit hard to read and strains my eyes. I can't say the same about Helvetica on Yosemite. That does have a big impact on my OS X experience.

 

[dyn]

One could make the case that rootless is "dumbing down" but even then you can disable it.

That's not dumbing down, that's tightening up as it is a security measure and no user needs to be in /System or /usr (any app can still access these things provided it plays by the rules of SIP). It's a different case with hiding the ~/Library folder in Finder. That's done to prevent the average user from asking what it is and breaking things because he can delete stuff in that folder.

 

[KALLT]

who are trying to convince at this point? this is ridiculous: "It is not hard, but it is wasteful in terms of your brain’s working memory and inefficient."

if your brain struggles with remembering to hit 'option' before clicking...well, that's just sad. it isn't like you're required to enter something bizarre: ie, command-shift-option-EXPERT-1-7-#-control-2016. that might strain one's brain a bit.

This is the problem of our argument. My view is idealistic, yours is practical and based upon the status quo (i.e. it’s not a big deal, so why bother).

Who says I need to convince you or anyone? This conversation has no consequences for the development of the system, it is purely for exchanging thoughts. This is just my opinion and my point is that it is not an ideal solution, so I have hopes that this is going to change at some point as devices are becoming more advanced. I reject that the status quo is something Apple should keep. It is impossible for me to say that the current solution is ideal, when you are effectively asking users to find and discover these hidden options (either by trial and error or by doing a web search) and remember them next time they need them. I gave you lots of examples where this is problematic: users who use multiple systems, users who don’t need some options often enough to remember where these are located and users who might not use these options because they simply don’t know they exist (like in this thread). Moreover, Apple is being a bit lazy in particular with this display calibration utility, when they could have just added a set of radio buttons to the first screen, but instead they chose to hide functionality behind a button with a double function. I don’t want that.

That’s all there is to my argument.

That's not dumbing down, that's tightening up as it is a security measure and no user needs to be in /System or /usr (any app can still access these things provided it plays by the rules of SIP). It's a different case with hiding the ~/Library folder in Finder. That's done to prevent the average user from asking what it is and breaking things because he can delete stuff in that folder.

SIP does more than just protecting these locations though. It will also prevent code injections into other processes, which breaks tweaks like TotalFinder. It is technically not ‘dumbing down’ though, but it does take away some user freedom.

 

[dyn]

I just wanted to give an example to show there is a difference between tightening things up and dumbing things down.

SIP breaks TotalFinder as it is now but let's not forget that we are still in the beta stages of OS X El Capitan. Things change and these betas are meant to gain experience with the new features, check if apps run or break and if OS X itself is running fine or not. As XtraFinder has shown SIP isn't a problem. There are some changes they have to make to the app to get it to work again. The same applies to other apps like Fantastical. They currently are also in a beta stage to test a version that should be compatible with El Capitan. Apps that already obey the SIP rules work fine, apps like Karabiner.

 

[meson]

I have to say, I'm not a fan of the direction that the UI is heading. Keeping in line with the display theme of this thread, they have hidden the Detect Displays button on the Displays Preferences pane. Pressing option reveals it in the same location it has been since I started with OS X Jaguar. This button provides basic functionality to a system, and as I found when I upgraded to Yosemite that displays and projectors that 'just worked' were treated as 1080p TVs and no longer 'just worked.' In addition Apple removed the Display Menu menu bar item that provided access to the Detect Displays feature in 2 clicks. The vast majority of users aren't going to know off the top of their head to press the option button to make a button appear in an already blank section of the GUI. This is an instance of making a simple task more complex for the simple goal of removing clutter from the GUI.

Fortunately, I gave my equipment a trial run before my first lecture that fall. I would have been very unhappy if I found myself wasting 10 minutes of class time searching online for a basic feature that has been present for over a decade. It's akin to the sort of thing that happened when Windows ditched the start menu. We all know how that worked out. Well maybe not the start menu, but something along the lines making the user press the alt key to make the search text field appear in the start menu (not everyone uses it, but those that do would miss it).

In regard to the calibration tool. I don't see the purpose in modifying the UI a tool that has not been changed in over a decade, unless there are significant changes to the tool itself. Also, I don't think I've ever connected a 3rd party display where I did not need to run the advanced calibration to make the display's colors appear closer to my builtin display.

We are seeing UI design changes that make the UI less cluttered, but also less intuitive. I would rather read through the text on a cluttered interface that has the functionality that I use readily available than spend considerably more using Google. Apple has always prided itself on the fact that its products are simple and intuitive to use. They are heading in the opposite direction in my opinion, at least in terms of working with OS X. It seems they are taking the stance of 'protecting the user from himself' as opposed to making their systems easier to use to the point that they are burying basic troubleshooting tools.

 

[tampageek]

Sadly, I feel kind of the same. So far, I'm not exactly fond of El Cap. I'm not liking the new S.F. font, and the OS seems a bit dumbed down for some reason. I agree that removing expert mode from the Calibration assistant was silly, essentially rendering it pointless.

I noticed that every other release of OS X that's odd-numbered has been a blah/not-too-good release; i.e., 10.5, 10.7, 10.9 and now 10.11. I tend to stick with, and prefer, even-numbered releases. Yosemite was one of my favorites, and I actually prefer the Helvetica Neue font on my non-retina MBP, so I dread the S.F. font changeover. I can't put my finger on it, but I'm not liking the vibe of El Cap so far.

I don't think it's as much "dumbing down" as it is locking down. The walled garden of  seems to be getting thicker. The rootless "feature" of El Cap is a huge step into that territory and I suspect most users won't realize just how huge until they see how many things they used to be able to do but can't - like running 3rd party apps.

Apple claims locking down the system is a security measure to "protect" us, but it also reduces user functionality and access. This leads to the question - how much do you really want to sacrifice in the name of security? Especially since everything, sooner or later, gets hacked - even 

 

[AdamskiUK]

.

 

[fisherking]

I don't think it's as much "dumbing down" as it is locking down. The walled garden of  seems to be getting thicker. The rootless "feature" of El Cap is a huge step into that territory and I suspect most users won't realize just how huge until they see how many things they used to be able to do but can't - like running 3rd party apps.

Apple claims locking down the system is a security measure to "protect" us, but it also reduces user functionality and access. This leads to the question - how much do you really want to sacrifice in the name of security? Especially since everything, sooner or later, gets hacked - even 

probably 99% of apps don't need system access, and won't be affected by SIP. for those that need access (bartender, which i use, for example), there's a path to setting it up, then it works.

security is a good thing, and there's little reason to mess inside the system; when there is a reason, there's a way, but a 'i'm aware of what i'm doing, equipped for it, and therefore responsible" way. it's a good move...