Epic Games Plans for Alternative App Marketplace in EU as Apple Reinstates Developer Account

[wbeasley]

i don't play fortnite and i think tim sweeny's a douche.

Epic games shot themselves in the foot big time with this whole ordeal; but i won't lie and say that it wasn't without any impact on apple. The cracks that appeared in apple's wall have been growing since

what cracks?

Apple is being forced by EU to do the bidding of a few powerful players.
As someone stated, do most users care? If they did, they'd probably use Android devices already.

the Apple ecosystem has always evolved. We are so many versions down the line from V1 that didnt even have an app store... didnt Jobs want web apps? lucky for Apple, someone pushed the store concept and now they reap the benefit as do we.

 

[AppliedMicro]

Eu is not an innovator just a regulator.

Correct. The EU regulates, and it only encourages innovation by business users.

Let's see how this EU thing goes.
If it fails, then the rest of the world probably wont push for it and the EU version will wither away.

No problem - the rest of the world could learn from the EU‘s mistakes then.
That said, the EU themself can learn from Apple‘s initial attempt at complying by further specifying requirements - the DMA provides for that mechanism.

If you REALLY want to side load, you can.
There are apps that do it without jailbreaking already.

PITA if you do it the „official“ Apple way, unless you’re a developer and it’s part of your day job.
And going the route of the shady stores misusing enterprise certificates is a PITA too, frankly (in addition to the security concerns).

If I had to guess, you want a game emulator. That seems to be the sticking point.

There are other emulators or apps that allow the running of arbitrary code (not subject to Apple’s approval).
I, for one, would be happy if I could spin up an OpenBSD installation and a few Linux apps in a virtual machine (such as hosted by UTM).

 

[mrat93]

Eu is not an innovator just a regulator.

This is my favorite comment on this post. It’s got smarts. It’s got insight. It’s got an almost-rhyme. It’s got humor. It’s got bold text. 10/10 no notes.

 

[mrat93]

what cracks?

Apple is being forced by EU to do the bidding of a few powerful players.
As someone stated, do most users care? If they did, they'd probably use Android devices already.

Third party app stores browser engines are pretty notable cracks. I can’t think of anything as notable since Apple released the App Store.

Do MOST users care? Probably not. I'd venture to say that most users couldn’t come to a majority consensus on anything. What’s your point? Do most users care about accessibility features?

Why do you assume anybody who cares is on Android? We’re on MacRumors and this is a daily discussion and argument amongst iPhone users. Why would Android users care enough to argue over it ad nauseam?

 

[Mousse]

Yes but all the people calling for an alt app store, what apps are you wanting to load?

What specific app is Apple not allowing in their store that has you so concerned you want to get it on your phone by other means?

Firewall iP. Y'all don't have to worry about my "dodgy app" communicating with your iPhone, because this "dodgy app" is designed to limit communications.🤓 Seriously, a firewall is the first line of defense for any networked machine.

iDOS. Don't worry this app can't contact your iPhone. It lets me run old DOS games.

 

[wbeasley]

Third party app stores browser engines are pretty notable cracks. I can’t think of anything as notable since Apple released the App Store.

Do MOST users care? Probably not. I'd venture to say that most users couldn’t come to a majority consensus on anything. What’s your point? Do most users care about accessibility features?

Why do you assume anybody who cares is on Android? We’re on MacRumors and this is a daily discussion and argument amongst iPhone users. Why would Android users care enough to argue over it ad nauseam?

There's a lot of strongly worded comments on a MacRumors post who seem to care about the differences with Android and openness. I still get it. If you want openness, then there's your choice. Buy an Android phone. You're not forced to do it. But the whinge and whine and demand Apple change... vote with your wallet if you are that unhappy about the walled garden

 

[wbeasley]

Correct. The EU regulates, and it only encourages innovation by business users.


No problem - the rest of the world could learn from the EU‘s mistakes then.
That said, the EU themself can learn from Apple‘s initial attempt at complying by further specifying requirements - the DMA provides for that mechanism.


PITA if you do it the „official“ Apple way, unless you’re a developer and it’s part of your day job.
And going the route of the shady stores misusing enterprise certificates is a PITA too, frankly (in addition to the security concerns).


There are other emulators or apps that allow the running of arbitrary code (not subject to Apple’s approval).
I, for one, would be happy if I could spin up an OpenBSD installation and a few Linux apps in a virtual machine (such as hosted by UTM).

You dont need to jump hoops for an alt store: https://altstore.io/

your example of what you want to run would be useful for about 0.000001% of phone users.
Why (oh why) would you need to run that on a phone? Surely a laptop would offer a better experience with a full screen and keyboard?

 

[wbeasley]

Firewall iP. Y'all don't have to worry about my "dodgy app" communicating with your iPhone, because this "dodgy app" is designed to limit communications.🤓 Seriously, a firewall is the first line of defense for any networked machine.

iDOS. Don't worry this app can't contact your iPhone. It lets me run old DOS games.

you want to run old DOS games?

Geez, we all have to open our phones up so you can run a text based game or dodgy crap graphics?
Most text based games can be emulated via a webpage app. Some video games too.
This is hardly cutting edge or needed by 99.999999% of phone users.

Games with iOS ports page 3

www.dosgames.com

And running these generates income for who?

If there's no money, no one will do it...
Both these would be better experienced on a laptop.

 

[mrat93]

There's a lot of strongly worded comments on a MacRumors post who seem to care about the differences with Android and openness. I still get it. If you want openness, then there's your choice. Buy an Android phone. You're not forced to do it. But the whinge and whine and demand Apple change... vote with your wallet if you are that unhappy about the walled garden

Paying $100/year for the dev account gives me all of the freedom I want. It’s not like I chose iPhone (the last 17 years) because I wasn’t aware of alternatives. It’s a trade-off. If I switched to Android, I would have other gripes.

Allowing for sideloading is like 2% of the “openness” that Android offers, but people here make it out to be the same thing.

 

[wbeasley]

Paying $100/year for the dev account gives me all of the freedom I want. It’s not like I chose iPhone (the last 17 years) because I wasn’t aware of alternatives. It’s a trade-off. If I switched to Android, I would have other gripes.

Allowing for sideloading is like 2% of the “openness” that Android offers, but people here make it out to be the same thing.

add this to your options list of running DOS games: https://playclassic.games/play-dos-games-online/

crank open Safari and boom, they're yours

whats the other 98% of openness?
all we hear on here is sideloading (probably because they dont want to mention the "hourly dating sites" that are banned too hahaha)

 

[mrat93]

add this to your options list of running DOS games: https://playclassic.games/play-dos-games-online/

crank open Safari and boom, they're yours

whats the other 98% of openness?
all we hear on here is sideloading (probably because they dont want to mention the "hourly dating sites" that are banned too hahaha)

I’m not the DOS game guy — I just intruded on your conversation, lol sorry. Emulating games locally without the hassle of relying on a web-based (online) solution would be nice though.

My 98% figure was very unscientific, but if you really want an answer to this… It’s the difference between sideloading and jailbreaking.

You know how on a Mac and PC (and Android), you can install apps that change aspects the core functionality of the OS? And you can browse every file on the device? That’s what I’m referring to. Apps that can actually break or change things at the OS-level will still not be feasible, even if Apple allowed direct installation of .ipa (iOS app) files (which they aren’t even doing in the EU).

That’s why I lose my mind when people here say “if you want it to be like Android, get an Android!” No!!! I want an iPhone to be like an iPhone, but with literally one aspect changed (which is hard to argue makes it anywhere close to Android-like).

 

[Zest28]

So Fortnight will only be back in the EU I guess?

 

[AppliedMicro]

You dont need to jump hoops for an alt store: https://altstore.io/

It requires installation of a server application on a connected macOS or Windows PC, „Apps installed with AltStore expire after 7 days, at which point they can no longer be opened“ and „Due to restrictions by Apple, you can only have 3 sideloaded apps installed on a device at a time“.

That’s a lot of hoops to jump through.

your example of what you want to run would be useful for about 0.000001% of phone users.

Way more users than that, by orders of magnitude.
I‘m sure it would be useful for more than 1 in a 100‘000‘000 (one in a hundred million) users.

Why (oh why) would you need to run that on a phone? Surely a laptop would offer a better experience with a full screen and keyboard?

That is true for many, probably most applications.
But the best computer is oftrn the one you’re having with you.

Admittedly, I‘d prefer to run them on an iPad.

 

[Hails09]

so if you cant name some thing specific...

there are how many millions of apps available?

i'm thinking you want something that's outside what Apple allows. Not game to say it?

If you REALLY want to side load, you can.
There are apps that do it without jailbreaking already.
Or just go Android.

I seriously dont get the push to make Apple change the core environment given for $100 you can do whatever on Android.

Push the game consoles to open up their platforms and see how far you get.

If I had to guess, you want a game emulator. That seems to be the sticking point.
There's no money in this for anyone. You wont buy ROMs, you wont pay for the emulator (most are open source anyway). So these alt app stores are going to go broke or make very little money.

Let's see how this EU thing goes.
If it fails, then the rest of the world probably wont push for it and the EU version will wither away...

Nobody cares enough about the games consoles to want them opened up.
Again here’s a solution for you when you get your new shiny new iOS device just don’t download from non Apple app stores & you can continue to live your life the way you want
It’s that easy

 

[Salvor Hardin]

Epic’s strategy has always been to take over distribution.

They’ve burned billions on EGS for PC, giving away free games and securing exclusives in an attempt to compete with Steam.

The Fortnite thing was just another chapter in that strategy. The ultimate prize has always been EGS for iOS. They’re not even letting the Core Technology Fee deter them (where even Microsoft and Facebook balked), and no doubt they will be just as aggressive competing with the iOS AppStore as they are against Steam on PC, burning even more billions in the process.

I really hope they don’t succeed. Unreal Engine already gives Epic an immense amount of power over other game developers; imagine what would happen if they were also gatekeepers over the biggest storefronts on every gaming platform? That’s their goal. The steps they have already taken and money they have spent should tell you that they’re serious about pursuing it.

Absolutely if it’s what they’d done on PC then it’s gonna be Timmy Epic using his Tencent money to show everyone what alternative and choice mean to him.

Nobody cares enough about the games consoles to want them opened up.
Again here’s a solution for you when you get your new shiny new iOS device just don’t download from non Apple app stores & you can continue to live your life the way you want
It’s that easy

Epic does you can bet they have a premeditated plan like “Project Liberty” to force their store onto consoles, they aren’t just going to continue to ignore that consoles are the last barrier between them and milking every last cent outta Fortnite MTX and they have significant leverage over the games industry to do what they want due to its over reliance on Epic’s Unreal Engine.
You’re solution won’t work when Epic starts moneyhatting apps and games away from Apple’s store just like they do on PC. They’ve laid out their strategy for years yet it’s hilariously ignored by this place.

 

[Hails09]

Absolutely if it’s what they’d done on PC then it’s gonna be Timmy Epic using his Tencent money to show everyone what alternative and choice mean to him.


Epic does you can bet they have a premeditated plan like “Project Liberty” to force their store onto consoles, they aren’t just going to continue to ignore that consoles are the last barrier between them and milking every last cent outta Fortnite MTX and they have significant leverage over the games industry to do what they want due to its over reliance on Epic’s Unreal Engine.
You’re solution won’t work when Epic starts moneyhatting apps and games away from Apple’s store just like they do on PC. They’ve laid out their strategy for years yet it’s hilariously ignored by this place.

I don’t buy or use epic games so not a problem for me

 

[Fat_Guy]

If there's no money, no one will do it...
Both these would be better experienced on a laptop.

Sure they will…


There are plenty of app uses for people that are not done with profit in mind. Some people are not motivated by money.


I kind of relished Apple’s corporate philosophy when it comes up against not-for-profits. They don’t know what to do or how to handle them. The Dev application gets bounced around finally to senior advisors - believe it or not - and then you have to talk with them on the phone. Ha!


As an aside I’m still interested in why Apple is running some of its operations in Austin, Texas. Ha!

 

[diamond.g]

i wish for Epic Games shareholders to oust Sweeny Tim so Epic Games can thrive again.

Hard to do when it is a private company and he owns 51% (assuming the Disney deal didn't eat from his share)...

I don’t buy or use epic games so not a problem for me

Epic makes money on any game that uses their Engine (well any game that is popular) and on any production studio that uses their stuff for VFX. I do concede that most indie games use Unity though.



I'm curious to see/know if UEFN will come to Apple devices in the EU.

 

[Fat_Guy]

Epic Games today announced plans to bring the Epic Games Store to iOS in the European Union, with Apple reinstating the company's developer account.

In its 2023 Year in Review, Epic said that it received its Apple Developer Account and would soon start developing an alternative app marketplace. The Epic Games Store will launch on iOS in the EU at some point in 2024, and it will provide a way for Epic Games to bring a Fortnite app to iOS once again.

Fortnite was removed from the iOS App Store at the start of the Epic Games v. Apple feud in 2020, and it has been unavailable since then. Epic Games did bring it to iPhones and iPads through Xbox Cloud Gaming and GeForce NOW, but the game has only been accessible through these browser-based services.

Shortly after Apple's alternative app marketplace plan was announced, Epic Games promised that Fortnite would "return to iOS" in Europe, and at the same time, Epic Games CEO Tim Sweeney lambasted Apple's plan to comply with the DMA. He called it a "devious new instance of Malicious Compliance" and said that the company "strongly reject Apple's twisting this process to undermine competition and continue imposing Apple taxes on transactions they're not involved in."

While working to implement the Epic Games Store on iOS, Epic also plans to continue to "argue to the courts and regulators that Apple is breaking the law."

Article Link: Epic Games Plans for Alternative App Marketplace in EU as Apple Reinstates Developer Account

My guess is that Epic and Apple basically have the same corporate philosophy and that elements of each other they don’t like rankle each other without them knowing that they are alike.



Epic’s new huge campus in North Carolina had the land purchased in 2019 as a distressed sale. Apple’s 5,000 person campus in Austin, Texas came into being at about the same time (2019). A guy whose last name rhymes with Tusk mumbles about moving some things from California to Texas and everyone is up in arms. Hehehe…..


Having said all that Apple did give us the Dev account and congratulated us and welcomed us in. So in the end they did right by us - just had to say that!

 

[wbeasley]

I’m not the DOS game guy — I just intruded on your conversation, lol sorry. Emulating games locally without the hassle of relying on a web-based (online) solution would be nice though.

My 98% figure was very unscientific, but if you really want an answer to this… It’s the difference between sideloading and jailbreaking.

You know how on a Mac and PC (and Android), you can install apps that change aspects the core functionality of the OS? And you can browse every file on the device? That’s what I’m referring to. Apps that can actually break or change things at the OS-level will still not be feasible, even if Apple allowed direct installation of .ipa (iOS app) files (which they aren’t even doing in the EU).

That’s why I lose my mind when people here say “if you want it to be like Android, get an Android!” No!!! I want an iPhone to be like an iPhone, but with literally one aspect changed (which is hard to argue makes it anywhere close to Android-like).

thanks for your answer and honesty about 98%

an iPhone is whatever Apple deliver as an iPhone.
you see the specs, the OS, you know it. You extend it with apps.
you dont get to play with it.

i get you might LIKE to play but why apart from the "i can change things" kudos?

years ago every man and his dog wanted to change screens and ringtones. i never hear a nonOS ringtone when out

it's like PCs years ago. had a relative who was always in the boot options. until they failed and then we would be back reinstalling everything. a tinkerer. sure it teaches you something, makes you think, learn and problem solve. but it's not something 99.9999% (my estimate hahahah) would ever attempt.

A Mac and PC are very different to a phone.
tinker on your PC or laptop. thats what there were designed for.
iOS was meant to be a consumer "foolproof" device. we are lucky Jobs relented and allowed outside apps at all.

Still think Android is your solution...
If not, why not?

 

[wbeasley]

It requires installation of a server application on a connected macOS or Windows PC, „Apps installed with AltStore expire after 7 days, at which point they can no longer be opened“ and „Due to restrictions by Apple, you can only have 3 sideloaded apps installed on a device at a time“.

That’s a lot of hoops to jump through.


Way more users than that, by orders of magnitude.
I‘m sure it would be useful for more than 1 in a 100‘000‘000 (one in a hundred million) users.


That is true for many, probably most applications.
But the best computer is oftrn the one you’re having with you.

Admittedly, I‘d prefer to run them on an iPad.

even on a tech forum, there are a handful of people pushing this. a handful. vocal granted but still a handful.

this isnt something that regular users want.

i was pointing out alt app stores exist. if you really wanted an easy option, you can do it (within the limits they set). it's not Apple setting the expiry and apps number...

perhaps we need you to start thinking that a phone is a phone. not a laptop.
if you want laptop functionality, set up AWS on your ipad... i tried it a few years ago and it worked OK.
the iPad as a dumb terminal could easily solve a lot of use case situations people mention.

there are 8K tvs with a lot of horsepower too but we dont clamour to make them home supercomputers so we?
a phone cam is the best cam tool when you have it. better now than some proper consumer cams. apart from zoom.
but a phone (or ipad) is still not a PC. Apple have always been very clear about the distinction of products so one deosnt cannibalize the other. how many people who complain about Macs not having touchscreens use an iPad as input instead even now it is a relatively easy thing to do?

 

[wbeasley]

Nobody cares enough about the games consoles to want them opened up.
Again here’s a solution for you when you get your new shiny new iOS device just don’t download from non Apple app stores & you can continue to live your life the way you want
It’s that easy

i would bet more users would love a Nintendo Switch media player than forcing iOS to do what you want

 

[wbeasley]

Sure they will…


There are plenty of app uses for people that are not done with profit in mind. Some people are not motivated by money.


I kind of relished Apple’s corporate philosophy when it comes up against not-for-profits. They don’t know what to do or how to handle them. The Dev application gets bounced around finally to senior advisors - believe it or not - and then you have to talk with them on the phone. Ha!


As an aside I’m still interested in why Apple is running some of its operations in Austin, Texas. Ha!

Same tale again... you have an issue with Apple's not for profit process. not the OS.

 

[tehabe]

A Mac and PC are very different to a phone.

No. Maybe in 2007 but not in 2024. A smartphone is just a small computer which fits into your pocket.

we are lucky Jobs relented and allowed outside apps at all.

No we are not. After Android came out with apps Apple had no real choice, only to make it better. I remembered that incorrectly. I thought that Google announced an app store for Android very early on. It were developers who pushed Apple to introduce third party app support.

Sometimes you have to force Apple to do what is right.

 

[wbeasley]

No. Maybe in 2007 but not in 2024. A smartphone is just a small computer which fits into your pocket.



No we are not. After Android came out with apps Apple had no real choice, only to make it better.

Sometimes you have to force Apple to do what is right.

"App Store. The App Store is a digital distribution platform which allows users to browse and download apps developed with Apple's iOS Software Development Kit. The App Store opened on July 10, 2008 with the release of IPhone OS 2, launching with 500 applications available."

"

Android versions 1.0 to 1.1: The early days​

Android made its official public debut in 2008 with Android 1.0 — a release so ancient it didn't even have a cute codename.

Things were pretty basic back then, but the software did include a suite of early Google apps like Gmail, Maps, Calendar, and YouTube, all of which were integrated into the operating system — a stark contrast to the more easily updatable standalone-app model employed today.

T-Mobile
The Android 1.0 home screen and its rudimentary web browser (not yet called Chrome).

Android version 1.5: Cupcake​

With early 2009's Android 1.5 Cupcake release, the tradition of Android version names was born. Cupcake introduced numerous refinements to the Android interface, including the first on-screen keyboard — something that'd be necessary as phones moved away from the once-ubiquitous physical keyboard model."

Pretty sure iPhone had a software keyboard from day one

And it also seems Apple had outside apps BEFORE Android (who included them in the OS)...