Espresso Enthusiasts

[S.B.G]

OK.

First off, who cares. What matters is the taste, which comes from consistency. Soupy puck all the time, tastes good = cool. One puck soupy, next puck hard = bad, no matter how one individual pull tastes, because you won't be able to repeat a good one.

From your description, I think it is probably your tamp and polish (but it could be your grind). Be religious about getting exactly 16g into the basket, not a smidge more or less. Tamp it twice as hard as you tamped the one tonight. Then give it 5 good polish turns. Inspect the top of the puck and it should be very flat. Turn the portafilter over and the puck should not fall out.

Then, try it. See how it looks and tastes.

If it is still soupy, but tastes good, hey, victory! Next time, just leave the PF in the brew head for a minute or two after you pull the shot and I'll bet it will not be soupy. And, that will tell us what we need to know.

Sounds like a plan. I'll give it a whirl in the morning and report back on the results. But like you said, the taste is what matters most.

Do you keep a spreadsheet of your data collection or is it just in a written notebook? Also, if not a spreadsheet, what data points do you collect on your pulls?

 

[Kurwenal]

Sounds like a plan. I'll give it a whirl in the morning and report back on the results. But like you said, the taste is what matters most.

Do you keep a spreadsheet of your data collection or is it just in a written notebook? Also, if not a spreadsheet, what data points do you collect on your pulls?

I weigh and time every pull (which is overkill, but it is my OCD coming out), but I do not record that info.** To diagnose your issue, I would definitely keep notes; this will be temporary. On every shot, you should record at least:

1. Type/source of coffee.
2. Grind setting.
3. Shot weight (even if it always the same, ie, weigh your shots).
4. Tamp pressure* (and let's just assume you always polish 3 spins, so you don't have to record that).
5. Shot time.
6. Taste (especially sour or bitter).

There are other things you can track, but with those 6 (and assuming, e.g., your machine puts out the right pressure, temp, etc.) you can diagnose most issues. Frankly, if you got a couple of pounds and sat down for a couple of hours one afternoon pulling multiple shots (let your machines cool down between shots) and just tasting a sip, you would figure this all out by the time you were done. The critical step is to hold everything consistent and change only one thing. Start by playing with the grind, then tamp. I would not start changing dosing yet.

* if you aren't sure how hard to tamp, practice on a bathroom scale. Seriously. It works. Or, there are tampers that have a built in "click" when you get to the right amount of pressure; you probably don't need that, but I will see if I can dig up a link.

** Unless I am working with a new machine, a new roast, or new beans, etc. Then I record a ton of info for each shot.

You'll get this. No worries.

 

[S.B.G]

I weigh and time every pull (which is overkill, but it is my OCD coming out), but I do not record that info. To diagnose your issue, I would definitely keep notes; this will be temporary. On every shot, you should record at least:

1. Type/source of coffee.
2. Grind setting.
3. Shot weight (even if it always the same, ie, weigh your shots).
4. Tamp pressure* (and let's just assume you always polish 3 spins, so you don't have to record that).
5. Shot time.
6. Taste (especially sour or bitter).

There are other things you can track, but with those 6 (and assuming, e.g., your machine puts out the right pressure, temp, etc.) you can diagnose most issues. Frankly, if you got a couple of pounds and sat down for a couple of hours one afternoon pulling multiple shots (let your machines cool down between shots) and just tasting a sip, you would figure this all out by the time you were done. The critical step is to hold everything consistent and change only one thing. Start by playing with the grind, then tamp. I would not start changing dosing yet.

* if you aren't sure how hard to tamp, practice on a bathroom scale. Seriously. It works. Or, there are tampers that have a built in "click" when you get to the right amount of pressure; you probably don't need that, but I will see if I can dig up a link.

You'll get this. No worries.

Excellent. Then I'm on the right track regarding the logging. The only thing I wasn't tracking was the tamp pressure, which I just assume I have been keeping consistent. I will try your suggestions.

 

[Kurwenal]

Just thought of one other question: when you dose the coffee into the portafilter basket, are you leveling the coffee in the basket, with your finger perhaps, before you tamp?

 

[S.B.G]

Just thought of one other question: when you dose the coffee into the portafilter basket, are you leveling the coffee in the basket, with your finger perhaps, before you tamp?

Hmmm... No I haven't been. I pile it in there, set it on the scale and get the weight where I want it and sort of, but not really, level it, then tamp it.

 

[Kurwenal]

Hmmm... No I haven't been. I pile it in there, set it on the scale and get the weight where I want it and sort of, but not really, level it, then tamp it.

Take a look at this video. Watch carefully what she does at 1:01 to 1:07. Do you do that before you tamp?



By the way, while I was looking for that link, I stumbled across this video. I didn't watch it all the way through but looks interesting.

 

[S.B.G]

Take a look at this video. Watch carefully what she does at 1:01 to 1:07. Do you do that before you tamp?

No, I don't, but will start.

By the way, while I was looking for that link, I stumbled across this video. I didn't watch it all the way through but looks interesting.

The Gaggia Baby Class does not have a 3-way solonoid valve, so that must be why it's always soupy - which as you said, and the lady said, doesn't really matter as long as the pull tastes good.

 

[Kurwenal]

No, I don't, but will start.

Bingo. That's most of your soupy issue right there.

So, you may not have to increase your tamp pressure as much as I suggested in the previous email. Just play with it and see. But just by leveling you will get a much better puck.

Then we'll work on ironing out the taste (which will improve by leveling, but I still think you have a grind issue lurking here somewhere).

Have fun.

 

[S.B.G]

Bingo. That's most of your soupy issue right there.

So, you may not have to increase your tamp pressure as much as I suggested in the previous email. Just play with it and see. But just by leveling you will get a much better puck.

Then we'll work on ironing out the taste (which will improve by leveling, but I still think you have a grind issue lurking here somewhere).

Have fun.

I guess I should worry less about wasting coffee. I'm always trying to eliminate waste by ensuring I keep as much coffee in the PF as I can, while getting the dosage just right.

Leveling it like that means grinding a little more coffee and then pushing it off. But then that raises a question. How do I ensure I end up with say 16 grams by the time I brush it off to level it prior to tamping?

 

[Kurwenal]

How do I ensure I end up with say 16 grams by the time I brush it off to level it prior to tamping?

You weigh your portafilter after you level. That's why you need a scale with the tare feature. After a while, you will learn how much coffee to grind to end up with 16g after you level.

How much coffee to grind really plays into your basket size and many other factors, but the basic idea is you want to have a fairly level surface on the top of the puck (which isn't a puck yet) for the tamper to push against. At coffee shops, you often see one way to do this that creates a huge amount of waste: overdose the basket and then level it with a small piece of wood. Or, some people move the PF around under the grinder, or bang it against the grinder while grinding.

I do what she did in that video: I grind the coffee into the PF. It fills the PF pretty well and then I have a pyramid shaped mass of coffee that comes up above the PF when I remove the PF from under the grinder. Great, you want that pyramid of coffee to level things out, since if you look closely, you will see that the coffee does not go up to the edge of the PF cleanly all the way around. This is one cause of what is called channeling, where the water forces its way through 1 or 2 weak points in the puck vs. coming through evenly.

So I have my PF with the little pyramid of coffee on top of the "puck." I hold it in my left hand, pointing straight away from me. I put my right index finger at the bottom side of the basket (closest to me), and I push the pyramid of coffee up to the top of the basket, running my index finger sideways across the top of the basket. I do not push the coffee *out* of the basket, just near enough to the top so I get a good seal of coffee up against the top edge of the PF. Then, I pick up my index finger, move it to the very top of the basket, and do the same thing coming back towards me. Then, I pick up my finger and put it on the left side of the basket, and push to the right. Then, ditto, pushing the coffee back to the left. And, at that point, if things look ok, I will keep pushing and push the extra coffee right off the top of the basket, which leaves me with a nice, smooth, level mass of coffee that I can use to push against the tamper.

With practice, you won't waste that much coffee. My (ristretto) shots are 21.5 grams each, my Mazzer is programmed to grind 22 grams of coffee with each push of the button (this is one reason a programmable grinder is helpful).

Make sense?

Much easier to do that to explain it, frankly. Just remember to push your finger in four directions across the top of the basket: north, south, east, west.

 

[S.B.G]

You weigh your portafilter after you level. That's why you need a scale with the tare feature. After a while, you will learn how much coffee to grind to end up with 16g after you level.

Yes, the scale I have has the tare feature and I do use it.

Make sense?

Yep!

Much easier to do that to explain it, frankly. Just remember to push your finger in four directions across the top of the basket: north, south, east, west.

Thanks for the tedious explanation! I'll put it to practice and see how things go.

 

[Kurwenal]

Here you go. A video is worth 1000 words.

 

[S.B.G]

Here you go. A video is worth 1000 words.

She's using the same Rancilio Rocky that I have in the video.

 

[Kurwenal]

She's using the same Rancilio Rocky that I have in the video.

Excellent. The Rocky is great.

I finally found a video that shows what I was looking for. Note his different technique....he moves the PF around under the grinder to get a better distribution than the method I use, but even then he still levels with his finger in the N-S-E-W pattern.

 

[S.B.G]

Excellent. The Rocky is great.

I finally found a video that shows what I was looking for. Note his different technique....he moves the PF around under the grinder to get a better distribution than the method I use, but even then he still levels with his finger in the N-S-E-W pattern.

I move the PF around a little too when grinding, but not nearly as much as he does in the video.

 

[Kurwenal]

I move the PF around a little too when grinding, but not nearly as much as he does in the video.

It's a matter of personal preference, I think. Some people like those dosing chambers not because they store coffee in them (shudder), but because it allows them to direct exactly where in the basket the coffee will go. One of my Mazzers has that sort of dosing chamber on it, but I do not like to sit there and pull the paddle over and over while dosing, so my espresso grinder puts the coffee straight into the basket and I use the pyramid N-S-E-W approach described above.

I hope this works for you. I will be offline a bit for the next few days but will check back in as I can. Happy tamping!

 

[S.B.G]

It's a matter of personal preference, I think. Some people like those dosing chambers not because they store coffee in them (shudder), but because it allows them to direct exactly where in the basket the coffee will go. One of my Mazzers has that sort of dosing chamber on it, but I do not like to sit there and pull the paddle over and over while dosing, so my espresso grinder puts the coffee straight into the basket and I use the pyramid N-S-E-W approach described above.

I hope this works for you. I will be offline a bit for the next few days but will check back in as I can. Happy tamping!

Thanks again for the terrific advice. I'll see if I can put it to practice and make decent improvements to my technique. #

 

[Shrink]

Go to 17g and I'll bet your soup goes away. (Which will serve only as a diagnosis, not a cure. The espresso will probably suck.)

There are a lot of other possible causes, beyond that. Tamping is the next most likely. Then not polishing the top of the puck. Then uneven coffee distribution in the basket.

I am assuming the issue is not your machine.....but, by chance are you using a Breville?

I'm interested in your experience with this issue. I find, at least with my machine, that soupiness (well, it's never soupy, but occasionally wet) is always resolved by slightly lowering the dose. My tamp is pretty consistent...so reducing dose does it for me. You're suggesting increasing the dose, leaving less headroom in the basket.

Want to know more....

 

[S.B.G]

I'm interested in your experience with this issue. I find, at least with my machine, that soupiness (well, it's never soupy, but occasionally wet) is always resolved by slightly lowering the dose. My tamp is pretty consistent...so reducing dose does it for me. You're suggesting increasing the dose, leaving less headroom in the basket.

Want to know more....

I think we worked that out by realizing that my Baby Class doesn't have a 3-way solenoid, so there is no reverse suction after extraction pulling water back into the system. So that said, with my machine I should always have soupy pucks, but as long as the taste is good, it doesn't matter.

 

[Shrink]

I think we worked that out by realizing that my Baby Class doesn't have a 3-way solenoid, so there is no reverse suction after extraction pulling water back into the system. So that said, with my machine I should always have soupy pucks, but as long as the taste is good, it doesn't matter.

I don't think the three way valve is the issue...but I'm going to do some reading...you might well be right, but I don't think that's it.

 

[S.B.G]

I don't think the three way valve is the issue...but I'm going to do some reading...you might well be right, but I don't think that's it.

Do let us know what you find.

 

[Shrink]

Do let us know what you find.

I saw the Seattle Coffee Gear video where the lady says, as you did, that soupy pucks are endemic to machines without the three way solenoid. Since my machine has no solenoid, and does not suck back after the extraction is complete...and I usually get beautiful, dry, pop-out-in-one-piece-pucks...I'm not sure I totally buy the explanation.

However, in a little bit of other reading, the general attitude is...don't worry about it. If the espresso is good, the heck with what the puck looks like, just enjoy the coffee. Seems fairly sensible to me.

I do know that holding the grind and tamp constant...reducing the dose slightly works when I get a slightly wet top on the pucks. Kurwenal says increase the dose...so now I want to hear his experience because the guy knows stuff!

 

[Scepticalscribe]

Ah, yes, thank you for noticing. It is the opening measure from my favorite part of my favorite opera, Tristan and Isolde, where Tristan implores the night to last forever:

O night of rapture, rest upon us,
Lift our lives’ remembrance from us.

The second act of this opera is pretty much one long love duet between Tristan and Isolde. Tristan implores the night not to end because he knows that when the sun comes up, he will probably be killed and, well, he is in love with Isolde anyway. When warned by his trusty servant named, hey, there is it: Kurwenal, that the king approaches and Tristan has been betrayed by Sir Melot, Tristan responds: "Let me die here! Let the day to death surrender!"

This being a Wagnerian opera, Tristan and Isolde do eventually die, but not until the next act.

I just realized that there is no coffee in this opera. Well, there should be. Maybe the love potion in the opera is actually coffee.....hmmm.

What a wonderful explanation, an absolute joy to read…..

Yeah, Wagner...that light and frothy stuff.

Couldn't you find anything more serious!?

Touché….

Ah, excellent. I hope you enjoy it. Here is a pretty good version, with English subtitles. The part I referred to above comes at about 33:00.

Act 3 is (much) more famous, especially the Liebestod. You might give that a listen first. The last 3 minutes of this are regarded as some of the most difficult notes to sing in all of opera, and include a high C# and a full octive jump from F# to high F#. The resolution with the oboe (a high D#) is truly one of the most beautiful moments ever in the entire history of the universe. OK, I'll stop.....




You mean, like, one of those light and airy Italian operas? What good ever came out of Italy?

Oh, wait.....have to go pull my 5:12 pm doppio.

Oh, well, espresso, nice espresso cups, espresso pots, espresso accessories, divine design sensibility, great roads, amazing tiles, the Renaissance, did I mention coffee, art, architecture, Roman Law, the Latin language, stunning opera (yes), sublime food, superlative wine, incredible espresso……among many other things….

Going to pull your 5:12PM doppio at 8:13PM?

And your 8:13 ristretto at...well...

What came out of Italy...better than Switzerland...cuckoo clocks!

I wondered when a version of that dialogue would make an appearance….

Yes, I live in your past. Exactly 3 hours in your past. And we all live in Scepticalscribe's past.

I guess that means every shot I pull is stale.

My past is a place where fact and fiction sometimes collide yet more often may merge, occasionally seasoned (as was discussed today - the topic, naturally enough, was the complicated political situation this is unfolding in front of our very eyes) by a foray into sheer fantasy…..and that is only conversations with local interlocutors….

I hate to be the one to break it to you, but no. Not everywhere, but in most places it is.

Brilliant.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

Actually, I head off - or more to the point, - don't drop in for several hours, and, on my return, find that Wagner, (and the relative merits of Italian opera) along Harry Lime and tamping have been all discussed in commendable detail while I was away.

That is the surprising thing about this thread; one never, ever knows, or can predict with any degree of certainty, what will come up next…..

 

[S.B.G]

We were on quite the tear last night!