Other Eye-strain while using iPhone X and up

[dimitricook]

My theory, and mind you it’s just that, is that other items that use PWM and implementing it at a much, much higher rate and we are not looking at them for hours at a time at mere inches from our face.

I just took this of my HP laptop for work. Interesting that this causes me zero issue whatsoever.


View attachment 1870484

Same for me here! I do have a flickering laptop and tv which cause light symptomps that are not even close to what i have with the iphone.

I also have extreme symptoms with the new macbooks and even all iphones above 8 and now after ios 14.7 even with the 8. Seems to have something to do with ditheting

 

[majkom]

Plasma flicker aint pwm based… different beast… unfortunately, for me plasme flicker is visible with bare eyes, it kills me… thats why i could not own any… thx god for oled tvs without pwm of course

 

[LostAggie]

I tried the 13 mini…. No go…. May try the 13 but later…

 

[RobinYerbank]

I've ordered the 12 Pro Max and will give it a good go. I'll have that safe 14 days to try it out and compare it to the 11, so I figured it's worth a shot.

Since I had no trouble with the last one, I'm thinking it'll be fine! Fingers crossed! But I now know much better what symptoms to look out for, so we'll see.

My symptoms from using the 13 models have been pretty rapid-onset and obvious, though. I'm still feeling nauseous after using the 13 earlier! It's almost ruined my evening. 🤢 I erased that horrible thing, put it back in the box and it'll be going back to Apple later this week.

AHHHH!!! Screw it. I'm not going to bother with the 12 Pro Max. It doesn't sit right with me paying that much for last year's model. I'd be paying a lot of money just to go backwards.

I strongly suspect that I was suffering from eye strain from it last time, but it was to a lesser degree than the 13 Pro Max, for whatever reason. Now that I think about it, I recall having regular sore eyes with the 11 Pro Max I had before it when I was commuting via train pre-COVID. I'm starting to think I was getting something similar with the 12 Pro Max.

I'm not going to risk further discomfort and hassle, not to mention the money. The 11 is a brilliant phone that I can use comfortably as much as I want. There's a lot of value in that!

It was too late for me to cancel the 12 Pro Max, so I'm gonna give it a try. It's going to arrive tomorrow and I'll have 14 days in which to do a detailed comparison and decide which phone to keep. 11 or 12 Pro Max...

I do wonder why the 13 series causes me such problems. The logical conclusion on paper is that higher frequencies are less perceptible, therefore less problematic. However, it seems I'm particularly sensitive to the 13 series frequencies and/or modulation patterns.

I was so shocked to find that the 13 causes me nausea! I am very sensitive to motion sickness (e.g. narrow FOV in games, reading in the back of a car, watching someone else play a motion-heavy game etc.) so I'm curious to know why I get the same thing from just using that phone. But why didn't the 13 Pro Max give me nausea as well?

PWM happens on a per-pixel level, right? For example, if you show and image that's half grey and half white, the grey half will be flickering with greater intensity (longer off periods) so it shows up darker. And if it's dark enough, it can drop into a lower frequency (e.g. 240Hz below 10% brightness in the 13 Pro, according to NotebookCheck).

Maybe the 13 Pro Max showing different frequencies in different parts of the display was causing me severe eye strain? Maybe the adaptive refresh rate has something to do with it? I've seen a few posts from members here reporting the same thing, that the 13 Pro/Pro Max is the first iPhone to cause such trouble for them.

---

Anyway, sorry to ramble. This stuff has been on my mind a lot because it's the first time new iPhones have caused me such awful symptoms.

I'll give the 12 Pro Max a thorough testing and will let you guys know how I get on. I'm expecting it to be fine, like the last unit I had for several months was.

 

[jimmy_uk]

Another article about PWM (citing LCD displays, last updated 17 March 2015) for those that want a greater understanding:

https://tftcentral.co.uk/articles/pulse_width_modulation

 

[jimmy_uk]

It was too late for me to cancel the 12 Pro Max, so I'm gonna give it a try. It's going to arrive tomorrow and I'll have 14 days in which to do a detailed comparison and decide which phone to keep. 11 or 12 Pro Max...

I do wonder why the 13 series causes me such problems. The logical conclusion on paper is that higher frequencies are less perceptible, therefore less problematic. However, it seems I'm particularly sensitive to the 13 series frequencies and/or modulation patterns.

I was so shocked to find that the 13 causes me nausea! I am very sensitive to motion sickness (e.g. narrow FOV in games, reading in the back of a car, watching someone else play a motion-heavy game etc.) so I'm curious to know why I get the same thing from just using that phone. But why didn't the 13 Pro Max give me nausea as well?

PWM happens on a per-pixel level, right? For example, if you show and image that's half grey and half white, the grey half will be flickering with greater intensity (longer off periods) so it shows up darker. And if it's dark enough, it can drop into a lower frequency (e.g. 240Hz below 10% brightness in the 13 Pro, according to NotebookCheck).

Maybe the 13 Pro Max showing different frequencies in different parts of the display was causing me severe eye strain? Maybe the adaptive refresh rate has something to do with it? I've seen a few posts from members here reporting the same thing, that the 13 Pro/Pro Max is the first iPhone to cause such trouble for them.

---

Anyway, sorry to ramble. This stuff has been on my mind a lot because it's the first time new iPhones have caused me such awful symptoms.

I'll give the 12 Pro Max a thorough testing and will let you guys know how I get on. I'm expecting it to be fine, like the last unit I had for several months was.

If the 12 PM works for you - run with it and forget the 13 series. I would (happily).

 

[asus389]

They are further away and you barely glance at them. Not same as glued to screen scrolling, reading small text, watching video, etc.

I’m not sure that’s true. I use CarPlay and I look longer at that screen than it takes an OLED iPhone to trigger a migraine. I can feel the headache starting in less than 30 seconds with the phone. I purposely looked at my infotainment for like 15 minutes trying to put a multi destination route into maps the other day and felt nothing.

 

[DJTaurus]

Macrumors wake up. We demand an article 🤬

 

[JM]

Macrumors wake up. We demand an article 🤬

That would be a no-win situation. Apple has hands tied with current display tech. There’s no upside to them saying anything about a problem they can’t fix. (They’re trying as evident by the higher PWM this year)

macrumors drawing attention to it is not going to help the situation, and there is probably nothing that can be done. (It might be too expensive to fix, or impossible…. There is no way Apple doesn’t know about the PWM issues at this point)

 

[JM]

I just spent ten minutes in the Best Buy playing with a mini only.

Yo.

I got no headaches or eye pain (I had my glasses on…. That might have helped). I’m so perplexed 😵‍💫

 

[RobinYerbank]

I just spent ten minutes in the Best Buy playing with a mini only.

Yo.

I got no headaches or eye pain (I had my glasses on…. That might have helped). I’m so perplexed 😵‍💫

Have you tested the displays in-store much before? I've always thought a bright store environment wouldn't reflect the scenarios in which most of us would suffer the most obvious symptoms, low light environments.

 

[AJTC]

That would be a no-win situation. Apple has hands tied with current display tech. There’s no upside to them saying anything about a problem they can’t fix. (They’re trying as evident by the higher PWM this year)

macrumors drawing attention to it is not going to help the situation, and there is probably nothing that can be done. (It might be too expensive to fix, or impossible…. There is no way Apple doesn’t know about the PWM issues at this point)

Surely just giving people the option of an iPhone 13 with an LCD (and 460ppi) would be the decent thing and they might actually sell ok if they leave out a camera lens to make it look like that’s part of the reason for it being cheaper.

I think MacRumors highlighting it could only do some good.

 

[jm31828]

Have you tested the displays in-store much before? I've always thought a bright store environment wouldn't reflect the scenarios in which most of us would suffer the most obvious symptoms, low light environments.

I went to an Apple Store Friday night to look at them, and I did notice some mild discomfort even in that very bright environment.

The difficult thing is it's different for everyone- a lot of people have said they are just fine with the 13 series devices while they may have had trouble with 11Pro and 12 series.... and some like me adjusted well to the 12 mini while having trouble with the XS (or maybe I just didn't give the XS enough time to let my eyes adjust).

It's so hard that we can't even look at the Notebookcheck data and say for sure that anyone will be better off this time around. It's maddening!

 

[RobinYerbank]

I went to an Apple Store Friday night to look at them, and I did notice some mild discomfort even in that very bright environment.

The difficult thing is it's different for everyone- a lot of people have said they are just fine with the 13 series devices while they may have had trouble with 11Pro and 12 series.... and some like me adjusted well to the 12 mini while having trouble with the XS (or maybe I just didn't give the XS enough time to let my eyes adjust).

It's so hard that we can't even look at the Notebookcheck data and say for sure that anyone will be better off this time around. It's maddening!

I agree! The fact that it varies so much person-to-person makes the topic so much harder to analyse. I haven't the foggiest why the 13 series is a nightmare for me, whereas previous generations have been mostly okay. Yet for many it's the other way round!

I'm praying that the 12 Pro Max arriving tomorrow is as problem-free as I remember the last one being. At least I'd have a big and modern iPhone to ride out the next few years safely with. I'm still kicking myself for selling my last one.

One thing's for sure: this whole ordeal means I won't be participating in any pre-orders in the future. I'm going to be far more careful with potential future upgrades, and might only upgrade when I really need to! I've always upgraded every year, so this feels very disappointing and weird for me.

First world problem, I know... 🤦🏻‍♀️

 

[jm31828]

I agree! The fact that it varies so much person-to-person makes the topic so much harder to analyse. I haven't the foggiest why the 13 series is a nightmare for me, whereas previous generations have been mostly okay. Yet for many it's the other way round!

I'm praying that the 12 Pro Max arriving tomorrow is as problem-free as I remember the last one being. At least I'd have a big and modern iPhone to ride out the next few years safely with. I'm still kicking myself for selling my last one.

One thing's for sure: this whole ordeal means I won't be participating in any pre-orders in the future. I'm going to be far more careful with potential future upgrades, and might only upgrade when I really need to! I've always upgraded every year, so this feels very disappointing and weird for me.

First world problem, I know... 🤦🏻‍♀️

Yeah, first world problems but still worthy of discussion, and the disappointment is completely understandable. It's exciting to upgrade each year, and a bummer to feel that you have to sit and watch from the sidelines when a new flashy model is released.

So sorry to hear about your situation- at least you'll land back with a nice, new 12 PM. It's still a fantastic phone, please share your experience when you get it- hopefully it will be just as comfortable for you as the previous one was!

It's so interesting how Notebookcheck and others throw terms like DC Dimming out there- we have been led to believe that the 12 Pro and the 13 Pro have it, and are supposed to be comfortable for our eyes- so why do we still see flicker on slow-mo video, and why are so many people still having discomfort? Not to sound like a broken record, but it's really maddening to try to sort all of that out.

 

[JM]

Have you tested the displays in-store much before? I've always thought a bright store environment wouldn't reflect the scenarios in which most of us would suffer the most obvious symptoms, low light environments.

I’ve tried apple store twice adjusting the display brightness to darker, turning on auto brightness. Both times I came away with no eye pain (like I had with 12 mini ownership), but had a slight headache both times and a little warm headed feeling.

the time today at Best Buy I adjust brightness as before to darker than normal light, and recorded screen as before (all three times had the slo mo flicker as expected).

but today I didn’t have a headache at Best Buy.

it makes me think I’ll have to just try owning it for a few days to see if it affects me. :/

 

[JM]

Surely just giving people the option of an iPhone 13 with an LCD (and 460ppi) would be the decent thing and they might actually sell ok if they leave out a camera lens to make it look like that’s part of the reason for it being cheaper.

I think MacRumors highlighting it could only do some good.

Yes, that sounds like a reasonable solution, but I still think drawing attention to it will cause more problems then help.

this is only thinking from Apple’s theoretical point of view and why they don’t say anything, and why MR doesn’t make an article about it. the solution might already exist: the 11 or the SE for the minority of people that have PWM sensitivity .

and why would MR post an article blatantly calling out Apple’s failure to offe PWM free modern device? That seems like a hit piece, and not within in MR’s MO.

 

[RobinYerbank]

Maybe I'm a bit of a masochist, but I just tried out the 13 one last time before UPS picks it up tomorrow. I can't help but doubt myself and whether or not it's a psychosomatic thing.

Nope! Nausea kicked in after about 10 minutes. I stopped as soon as I could feel it, but now I'm gonna be feeling uneasy again until I go to sleep. I'm still in disbelief that a phone can do this, honestly.

 

[now i see it]

It’s not a “phone”, it’s a torturing device

 

[happy orchard]

I agree! The fact that it varies so much person-to-person makes the topic so much harder to analyse. I haven't the foggiest why the 13 series is a nightmare for me, whereas previous generations have been mostly okay. Yet for many it's the other way round!

I'm praying that the 12 Pro Max arriving tomorrow is as problem-free as I remember the last one being. At least I'd have a big and modern iPhone to ride out the next few years safely with. I'm still kicking myself for selling my last one.

One thing's for sure: this whole ordeal means I won't be participating in any pre-orders in the future. I'm going to be far more careful with potential future upgrades, and might only upgrade when I really need to! I've always upgraded every year, so this feels very disappointing and weird for me.

First world problem, I know... 🤦🏻‍♀️

I've come to that conclusion as well. Yearly fun upgrades have stopped being fun and now they're just so stressful. So, I'm going to try the different approach of 'how long can I enjoy this 11?'

Good luck with the 12 PM.

 

[jimmy_uk]

I’ve tried apple store twice adjusting the display brightness to darker, turning on auto brightness. Both times I came away with no eye pain (like I had with 12 mini ownership), but had a slight headache both times and a little warm headed feeling.

the time today at Best Buy I adjust brightness as before to darker than normal light, and recorded screen as before (all three times had the slo mo flicker as expected).

but today I didn’t have a headache at Best Buy.

it makes me think I’ll have to just try owning it for a few days to see if it affects me. :/

Do it - it's the only way to know for sure. I personally had no eye strain while using the devices for the first time since Apple introduced OLED. It was only on the second day of usage that I had a day ending migraine - then I couldn't use the devices anymore. 🤷‍♂️

 

[jimmy_uk]

That would be a no-win situation. Apple has hands tied with current display tech. There’s no upside to them saying anything about a problem they can’t fix. (They’re trying as evident by the higher PWM this year)

macrumors drawing attention to it is not going to help the situation, and there is probably nothing that can be done. (It might be too expensive to fix, or impossible…. There is no way Apple doesn’t know about the PWM issues at this point)

I personally don't think Apple are trying - the higher PWM is just down to the type of displays and controllers they are sourcing, mainly to have 120hz refresh rates. If they were really trying we would have real accessibility options to mitigate the issues.

 

[dimitricook]

I personally don't think Apple are trying - the higher PWM is just down to the type of displays and controllers they are sourcing, mainly to have 120hz refresh rates. If they were really trying we would have real accessibility options to mitigate the issues.

That is true, they did nothing to solve the issue or at least provide good accesability options. I dont care if the colors are not so accurate if i can enjoy the phone without pain.

 

[jm31828]

Here are a couple of slow-mo videos I took at the Apple store on Friday evening:

iPhone 13 Mini- flicker very visible:

And here is the iPhone 13 Pro- no visible flicker at all (surprisingly):

Even with how bad the flicker is on slow-mo on my current iPhone 12 Mini- my eyes adjusted after a week or two and it's been great..... so I am tempted to see if the Pro might actually work for me given what I see here, and what Notebookcheck says about DC dimming at anything above 10% brightness.

 

[now i see it]

Slow motion recording of a screen won’t reveal if it’s going to mess with your eyes and brain